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How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

here its from Indian Airforce magzine "Vayu Sena" this artical might help you all ...
VayuSena

F-16 vs MiG-29
f-sixteen.com

Both the F-16 and the MiG-29 were designed to correct mistakes and shortcomings of previous aircraft. With the USAF it was the low kill ratios over Vietnam as well as the lack of complete air superiority over the battle field a feat that was achieved with great success both over the battlefield's of Europe and Korea where the US Army was able to operate under little threat of air attack. With the Russians they wanted an aircraft that would perform the same roles as the MiG-25 and the Su-27 but at a shorter range. As well as an aircraft that for the first time could match Western fighters in ACM, while maintaining the ability to operate as an interceptor. Thus the MiG-29 became a smaller and shorter range F-15 while the F-16 became a larger and longer range F-5.

f16mig29.gif

Both teams designed craft that were cleared to operations of 9g and made use of wing-body blending to increase internal volume , reduce weight and improve maneuverability. They both located the intakes close to structures to reduce the AoA (angle of attack) sensed at the face of the intake/s thus increasing the AoA that the aircraft could take in comparison to other aircraft of their day. With the F-16A the AoA limit is 25deg where as the MiG-29 has been cleared of an AoA of up to 45deg.

One of the major differences was in the engine arrangement with the General Dynamics team choosing a single P&W F100 this gave commonality with the F-15 and lower fuel consumption. In contrast the Mikoyan team choose a twin arrangement of the RD-33 with no thought give to using the Saturn/Lyulka AL-31F as used in the Su-27. The reasoning being that the use of two engines gave the aircraft greater survivability as the MiG-23/27's suffered a greater attrition ratio then the MiG-25. With the intakes the GD team adopted a fixed geometry intake as high mach number capability was not required for the role that the F-16 was to fill, while the requirement for a dash speed of mach 2.3+ led Mikoyan to adopt a two dimensional , four shock , variable geometry intake with one fixed ramp and two moving ramps.

In regard to FOD (foreign object damage) the GD team took the position that FOD would not be a problem as the F-16 would operate form swept, paved runways. Where as the Russians felt that a rough field capability was an important capability and as such devised two movable ramps over the intakes to prevent FOD while on the ground or at low speed at low level. When the intakes are closed the engines breath via auxiliary intakes on the upper surface of the wing.


Old Rivals: A PAF F-16 (Left) and an IAF MiG-29 (Right)

The F-16 has incorporated a number of features that are intended to enhance combat effectiveness. The pilot's seat is inclined at 30deg rather than the normal 13deg , he also has a side stick controller which allows the pilots arm to be supported this has not met with universal approval as some pilots prefer to be able to fly with either hand. The F-16 also for the first time incorporated a Fly-By-Wire flight control system, this allowed the aircraft to be made inherently unstable and would greatly improve maneuverability in air-combat. While the MiG introduced the first HMS (helmet-mounted sight) and IRST (infra-red search and track) sensor with a laser range finder for passive attacks and missile engagements up to 45deg off-borsight but maintained a conventional flight control system and achieved high maneuverability mainly due advanced aerodynamics. i.e. The tail of the MiG-29 is said to have been positioned to take advantage of the four vortices by the wing and fuselage.

In combat provided that the MiG-29's 7.5g above 0.85 mach can be avoided it should beat any F-16 due to its BVR capability , higher thrust/weight ratio and lower wing loading. While in recent exercises between USAF F-16 and German MiG-29A's showed that in ACM the greatest advantage the MiG-29 had was it's helmet mounted sight coupled with the AA-11 Archer which gives it a kill zone greater than any aircraft serving. F-16 pilots found that any aircraft within 45deg's of the nose of a MiG-29 was always under grave threat. The ability to target aircraft well of boresight has proved to be such a success that helmet mounted sights have become requirements on any new fighter program.

mix_f16_mig29-2.jpg

Luftwaffe MiG-29s and USAF F-16s have engaged in intense DACT exercises

While both aircraft have short-commings those of the MiG-29 have effectively been solved with newer versions ( MiG-29 S/M/K and MiG-33 ) which have increased the fuel capacity of the MiG as well as adding an in-flight refueling system. The number of hard points has also been increased by two and the max warload has been doubled, along with the inclusion of a fly-by-wire flight control system and a new radar that allowed two targets to be engaged simultaneously with the new AA-12 Adder active radar missile as well as full clearance for flight at 9 g's . Most of these upgrades have been offered to current users of the MiG-29 with the Russian and Indian airforces conducting some upgrades.

The F-16 by comparison has had few of it's problems solved in the past few years. One of it's greatest drawbacks the lack of a BVR capability was solved with the clearance of the AMRAAM for use on the F-16 but the second major problem of insufficient wing area on the F-16C has never been solved.


Source
 
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The problem here is american tech eco system is advanced than any other country in the world. As far as PAF is concern they have very limited tech F-16s which is not compatible / limited compatibility with chinese tech. On the other hand Mig-29upg India got has all the advance tech Russia developed along with Israeli and French techs too. Same goes for weapons. PAF has very limited not upto date weapons and radars for F-16s and therefore they cannot boast what USAF did with their F-16s they can also do the same. USAF F-16s and PAF F-16s are in totally different league. As Sancho mentioned in his earlier post that JF-17 is more advanced than PAF F-16s in many respects.

Exactly.

US will not sell certain sensitive equipment used in their F-16s to their clients. The export version of fighters are always downgraded.

Also PAF does not have as much advanced AWACS (and have few), Sophisticated network, Censors, experience like USAF do.
 
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^Vayusena is Indian source. They might not accept that. While making comparisons for these 2 fighters, Post a non-Indian, non-Pakistani, non Russian, non-U.S sources for objectivity, like I have and other people have posted before like the Israeli, German and the Bulgarian Airforce assesments. But the above was sourced from f-sixteen.com Home i guess, but that site is dead and a new site is in its place.
 
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here its from Indian Airforce magzine "Vayu Sena" this artical might help you all ...
VayuSena

F-16 vs MiG-29
f-sixteen.com

Both the F-16 and the MiG-29 were designed to correct mistakes and shortcomings of previous aircraft. With the USAF it was the low kill ratios over Vietnam as well as the lack of complete air superiority over the battle field a feat that was achieved with great success both over the battlefield's of Europe and Korea where the US Army was able to operate under little threat of air attack. With the Russians they wanted an aircraft that would perform the same roles as the MiG-25 and the Su-27 but at a shorter range. As well as an aircraft that for the first time could match Western fighters in ACM, while maintaining the ability to operate as an interceptor. Thus the MiG-29 became a smaller and shorter range F-15 while the F-16 became a larger and longer range F-5.

f16mig29.gif

Both teams designed craft that were cleared to operations of 9g and made use of wing-body blending to increase internal volume , reduce weight and improve maneuverability. They both located the intakes close to structures to reduce the AoA (angle of attack) sensed at the face of the intake/s thus increasing the AoA that the aircraft could take in comparison to other aircraft of their day. With the F-16A the AoA limit is 25deg where as the MiG-29 has been cleared of an AoA of up to 45deg.

One of the major differences was in the engine arrangement with the General Dynamics team choosing a single P&W F100 this gave commonality with the F-15 and lower fuel consumption. In contrast the Mikoyan team choose a twin arrangement of the RD-33 with no thought give to using the Saturn/Lyulka AL-31F as used in the Su-27. The reasoning being that the use of two engines gave the aircraft greater survivability as the MiG-23/27's suffered a greater attrition ratio then the MiG-25. With the intakes the GD team adopted a fixed geometry intake as high mach number capability was not required for the role that the F-16 was to fill, while the requirement for a dash speed of mach 2.3+ led Mikoyan to adopt a two dimensional , four shock , variable geometry intake with one fixed ramp and two moving ramps.

In regard to FOD (foreign object damage) the GD team took the position that FOD would not be a problem as the F-16 would operate form swept, paved runways. Where as the Russians felt that a rough field capability was an important capability and as such devised two movable ramps over the intakes to prevent FOD while on the ground or at low speed at low level. When the intakes are closed the engines breath via auxiliary intakes on the upper surface of the wing.


Old Rivals: A PAF F-16 (Left) and an IAF MiG-29 (Right)

The F-16 has incorporated a number of features that are intended to enhance combat effectiveness. The pilot's seat is inclined at 30deg rather than the normal 13deg , he also has a side stick controller which allows the pilots arm to be supported this has not met with universal approval as some pilots prefer to be able to fly with either hand. The F-16 also for the first time incorporated a Fly-By-Wire flight control system, this allowed the aircraft to be made inherently unstable and would greatly improve maneuverability in air-combat. While the MiG introduced the first HMS (helmet-mounted sight) and IRST (infra-red search and track) sensor with a laser range finder for passive attacks and missile engagements up to 45deg off-borsight but maintained a conventional flight control system and achieved high maneuverability mainly due advanced aerodynamics. i.e. The tail of the MiG-29 is said to have been positioned to take advantage of the four vortices by the wing and fuselage.

In combat provided that the MiG-29's 7.5g above 0.85 mach can be avoided it should beat any F-16 due to its BVR capability , higher thrust/weight ratio and lower wing loading. While in recent exercises between USAF F-16 and German MiG-29A's showed that in ACM the greatest advantage the MiG-29 had was it's helmet mounted sight coupled with the AA-11 Archer which gives it a kill zone greater than any aircraft serving. F-16 pilots found that any aircraft within 45deg's of the nose of a MiG-29 was always under grave threat. The ability to target aircraft well of boresight has proved to be such a success that helmet mounted sights have become requirements on any new fighter program.

mix_f16_mig29-2.jpg

Luftwaffe MiG-29s and USAF F-16s have engaged in intense DACT exercises

While both aircraft have short-commings those of the MiG-29 have effectively been solved with newer versions ( MiG-29 S/M/K and MiG-33 ) which have increased the fuel capacity of the MiG as well as adding an in-flight refueling system. The number of hard points has also been increased by two and the max warload has been doubled, along with the inclusion of a fly-by-wire flight control system and a new radar that allowed two targets to be engaged simultaneously with the new AA-12 Adder active radar missile as well as full clearance for flight at 9 g's . Most of these upgrades have been offered to current users of the MiG-29 with the Russian and Indian airforces conducting some upgrades.

The F-16 by comparison has had few of it's problems solved in the past few years. One of it's greatest drawbacks the lack of a BVR capability was solved with the clearance of the AMRAAM for use on the F-16 but the second major problem of insufficient wing area on the F-16C has never been solved.


Source



With the Russians they wanted an aircraft that would perform the same roles as the MiG-25 and the Su-27 but at a shorter range

Main role of Su-27 was AWACs Killer/ Long Range Air Superiority Fighter.

The Mig-29 was designed as short range fighter giving protection to advancing ground forces.

@sancho @Capt.Popeye
 
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I am on topic. This whole discussion is not required. As you said, we already have solid military history using which results of future conflicts can be easily predicted. So since 93000 of your soldiers surrendered last time, it proves that our soldiers are better than yours and all pakistani soldiers will surrender in the next war within 7 days.

No need of F16 vs mig 29. India wins. Be happy.

No need of bragging.
 
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Main role of Su-27 was AWACs Killer/ Long Range Air Superiority Fighter.

The Mig-29 was designed as short range fighter giving protection to advancing ground forces.

@sancho @Capt.Popeye

What should I say? Lol.
The facts are this:
The MiG-29 performs better in the A2A role
The F-16 performs better in the A2G role

The reports of the Luftwaffe and Israeli Air Force pilots who evaluated both of these aircraft side by side, i.e. 1-on-1 is also testament to that. Take it or leave it !
As for the IAF fighter jocks; they love to swear by their MiG-29s as 'flying machines'; but may be I could accuse them of being biased ? :-)

Now: Could we accuse the Germans and Israelis of the same crime?:-)
 
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Does the Mig 29 K has total thrust of 18,000 kg or is it 16,600 KG which is total thrust generated by AF version?

As for Mig-35 18 ton thrust is not enough, I have heard it is 30% heavier that Mig 29.

The K and the UPG have different engines, the earlier has the RD33 MK with 90kN AB thrust, the latter the RD 33-3 Series, with around 83kN AB thrust.

The weight for the Mig 35 was mainly an estimate, but with increased wings and fuel capacity, additional hardpoints, the heavier AESA radar, the added TVN, additional avionics..., it clearly will be heavier that the speculated 11t empty. But weight alone is not the issue, but that the RD 33MK has only a low dry thrust improvement and both combined results into a lower performance:

EF - 2 x 60kN dry / 11t emptyweight
Mig 35 - 2 x ~ 50kN / 11,5 to 12t+ emptyweight
Rafale x 2 x 50kN / 9,5t emptyweight
 
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It is funny to see some posters try to boast what USAF/IsAF F-16s achieved as if it was achieved by PAF. PAFs F-16s are most inferior as compared to USAF and IsAF F-16s whereas IAF Mig-29UPG is one of the most advanced Mig-29 in the world. Be it electronics, weapons on communications package. Since we are discussing non-US/IsAF/NATO F-16s, Mig-29UPG had clear upper hand.

What is the point of any of those seriously advanced advantages of Migs over F's, assuming that they actually hold any advantage at all for argument's sake, when the missiles are absolute failures? Even with primitive technology, the F's AIM-120C will home into the Migs and the MKI's and the Jags and whatever else you have with stunning accuracy while in the meantime the junky F's will fly away.

One very simple example which has already been quoted here...

In Kargil war, PAF was kept at bay by IAF... They tried to flutter their wings a bit in a Toy named F16 for a while... They got a jolt of their life when locked by MiG 29... Cant say more in Indo Pak senario...
Some members may counter by saying that PAF F16 got MLU and BVR capability which was not available at that time... But IAF MiG 29 have came a long from then with latest tech as well..

Actually, it was IAF that got shocked to the core when it was engaged by PAF close to our border.......IAF could never muster the courage to cross the border despite waging a war in Kargil. PAF, on the other hand, was never engaged in any battle and most likely was itching for the IAF to give them an excuse.

P.S. The ROSE upgrades on Mirages alone is indicative of undeclared availability of BVR technology with PAF.



I would say when both aircraft engage in near future (I pray to god for avoidance of this), the situation role, support by force multipliers would come in to pics...
One thing for my Pakistanifriends, Migs are not junk, otherwise you and your ally (best ally) would not be using its copies J6 J7 and engines identical to these platforms...
F16 is darling plane, but MiG 29 is also a beast... Luck factor will also come in to play...
Atleast the brases in IAF are not :crazy: to invest heavily in this flatform... Or god bless us, coz members on this forum are more talented than our Airforce men:hang2:....

We use J-6 and J-7's because we do not have any other options and because these 'junks' can counter IAF junks as they carry better A2A armaments. IAF will most likely field Rafale, if they have acquired them by then, against the PAF F-16's in any future engagement. The Migs and MKI's will have to take on Thunders and J-10B's. In the event that IAF does not acquire Rafale then MKI's will have to take on the F's and Migs will have to take on the Thunders (as our acquisition of J-10B's is most likely linked to IAF acquisition of Rafale).
 
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The K and the UPG have different engines, the earlier has the RD33 MK with 90kN AB thrust, the latter the RD 33-3 Series, with around 83kN AB thrust.

The weight for the Mig 35 was mainly an estimate, but with increased wings and fuel capacity, additional hardpoints, the heavier AESA radar, the added TVN, additional avionics..., it clearly will be heavier that the speculated 11t empty. But weight alone is not the issue, but that the RD 33MK has only a low dry thrust improvement and both combined results into a lower performance:

EF - 2 x 60kN dry / 11t emptyweight
Mig 35 - 2 x ~ 50kN / 11,5 to 12t+ emptyweight
Rafale x 2 x 50kN / 9,5t emptyweight

Thanks......................
 
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What should I say? Lol.
The facts are this:
The MiG-29 performs better in the A2A role
The F-16 performs better in the A2G role

The reports of the Luftwaffe and Israeli Air Force pilots who evaluated both of these aircraft side by side, i.e. 1-on-1 is also testament to that. Take it or leave it !
As for the IAF fighter jocks; they love to swear by their MiG-29s as 'flying machines'; but may be I could accuse them of being biased ? :-)

Now: Could we accuse the Germans and Israelis of the same crime?:-)

Its not about which is better in A2A.

I was replying to this line.

With the Russians they wanted an aircraft that would perform the same roles as the MiG-25 and the Su-27 but at a shorter range.

While both are air superiority fighters, The SU-27 is designed as long range heavy fighter.

T-10-Flanker-A-DD-ST-86-06651-1S.jpg








Mission

The principal role of the Fulcrum is air superiority and air defense in support of Soviet land forces.[which is what I said in earlier post.] While the aircraft is claimed to be capable of carrying up to 6,700 lb of air to ground stores, it does not appear to be fitted with the inertial navigation equipment or laser designator required for precision bomb delivery. Given the abundance of dedicated strike aircraft in the FA VVS inventory, mud bashing was obviously not a priority.

Deployed in the central European theatre, the Fulcrum would be used to engage NATO's F-15 and F-16 force thus allowing FA strike aircraft to penetrate NATO's air defence barrier. In the air defence role it would use its lookdown shootdown radar to engage NATO's low flying F-111 and Tornado aircraft, up to now almost impossible to stop.

The greatest tactical limitation of Fulcrum A is its limited radius which is rather low for its class of air superiority fighter (and almost certainly not what the designers intended), nevertheless it is a vast improvement over the earlier Fishbed, the later Flogger not being a serious contender for this role. Fulcrum C will almost certainly match its Western counterparts in combat radius. Deployment of the Fulcrum spells the end for older air superiority fighters such as the F-4E/F and the Mirage III/F.1 and will force the need for fighter escort for most NATO strike aircraft.

In Third World scenarios the Fulcrum balances the F-16A and defeats all earlier aircraft.





Mission

The formally stated role of the Flanker is long range air intercept and air superiority. What this implies is that the aircraft would defend the extremities of Soviet airspace and associated ocean areas from hostile aircraft.

In practice PVO Flankers deployed to strategic areas such as the Kola peninsula and Kamchatka would perform two roles, intercepting SAC bombers on strategic raids and frustrating the US Navy's attempts to implement the Maritime Strategy by sailing carrier battle groups up to Soviet ocean sanctuaries.

In either of the roles the Flanker will have a major impact. With its radar/IRST capability it will threaten both the B-1B and B-52H on penetration missions and possibly even standoff cruise missile strikes, given its substantial combat radius. In the maritime scenario it will tie down USN fighter assets at those operating radii where massed bomber/ASCM strikes against the carriers are most likely, as a result the F-14s will have to fight both the Flanker and the inbound bombers. In this fashion the Flanker is a potent defensive asset.



What has received little publicity is the assignment of the Flanker to squadrons of the Soviet strategic air force, Russia's counterpart to SAC. In this role the Flanker becomes a long range fighter escort for the Backfires, Blackjacks and Bears tasked with conventional or nuclear strike against strategic or theatre targets. In this fashion bombers inbound to targets in the UK, Iceland, Norway, Japan, Alaska and the Aleutians would receive fighter escort with the objective of frustrating defending interceptors.

Needless to say, the Tornado ADVs, F-4s and F-16s tasked with air intercept are likely to sustain substantial attrition if they engage the Flanker.

Deployment of substantial numbers of Flankers in this role would have a major impact upon any large confrontation, as the Soviets would for the first time be able to implement a Douhet strategy of sustained strategic air attack and thus put at risk Western targets up to now secure. The implications are obvious.

000-Su-27K-AAR-4A.jpg


The navalised Flanker currently undergoing carrier compatibility trials on the new Soviet CVN will cause revolutionary changes in Soviet naval capability. The absence of capable naval fighters has rendered Soviet naval surface forces impotent in the face of the USN CBG, as there can be no contest between a SAM firing ship and a massed strike force of missile firing aircraft. Flanker will defend the fleet and provide offensive fighter escort for anti shipping strikes.

It is fair to say that the Flanker will ultimately have the greatest impact upon Soviet air capability of any fighter aircraft since WW II. It is therefore surprising that the deployment of this aircraft has produced so little reaction, in comparison with the ineffective Foxbat during the sixties. The success of the Allied air war against the Axis powers resulted largely from the superior combat radius of Allied fighters. Flanker represents the first departure by the Soviets from Axis air warfare strategy and should be seen as such. Western air warfare strategists are well advised to take this event seriously.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&ved=0CGcQFjAH&url=http://www.ausairpower.net/Profile-Fulcrum-Flanker.html&ei=meW7Us3gGcGlrQfN34HgBg&usg=AFQjCNFPu3b9XywXC-ptLg8MDIH45-g-wQ
 
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Nice.

So in order to justify Mig 29, Indians bring in Israelis.

Would any of you arm chair warriors care to elaborate why Israel still stuck with F-16s as their backbone?

F-16 is the best complete fighter package out there.

More than 4000 built and exported to more than 20 nations.
 
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Nice.

So in order to justify Mig 29, Indians bring in Israelis.

Would any of you arm chair warriors care to elaborate why Israel still stuck with F-16s as their backbone?

F-16 is the best complete fighter package out there.

More than 4000 built and exported to more than 20 nations.
he he he he what F 16s PAF has buddy + the US strings attached to there use and maintainence while IAF is as free to use its Mig 29s as RAF ,,, i know you realli dont likethe situation PAF is finding it self

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burn-5.gif
 
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he he he he what F 16s PAF has buddy + the US strings attached to there use and maintainence while IAF is as free to use its Mig 29s as RAF ,,, i know you realli dont likethe situation PAF is finding it self

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burn-5.gif


Maybe that's why nations operate F-16s and not Mig29s.

The F-16s can and will be used against Pakistan's enemies, including but not limited to India.
So get out of this 'Strings Attached' fetish that you guys have come up with to console yourself.
 
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Maybe that's why nations operate F-16s and not Mig29s.

The F-16s can and will be used against Pakistan's enemies, including but not limited to India.
So get out of this 'Strings Attached' fetish that you guys have come up with to console yourself.
well bro thing is F 16s a great fighter and had all the right inputs at the right time but it has past its age of use for its primarry users who haved moved on to 4++ & 5+ gen aircraft wich are much lighter , feul efficient and carry more wepons + have a better survivabilty factor aswell (F-18 super bug , rafale, typhoon , F22 & F35II) and the most cutting edge and leathel F16s are with israelies 'SUFA' or USAF and some 60 with one arab state rest all are just ok to say the least and nothing that there opponents can manage to bring down easlly as air war fare has entered the age of BVRs, EW suits and AWAC backed by very very potent SA batteries and its not just about WVR or pilot skills alone what matters most here is tech support

now lets talk about PAF vs IAF scenario cause thats the thread all about well here its not what you want to beleave

1.IAFs M29s are very different what USAF met with in iraq or check republick and the SMTs we have are way mych better deu to
a. IRST
b.French Helmate Mounted Dispaly System
c.Data link
d.latest israili EW suits
e.extended feul capacity & composits
f.better engines
g.latest AA missiles & self protection jammers
h. cutting edge tech enablled (ASEA multiple band)Ground based & AWAC support
g. Latest MM radar (while AESA Zhuck AE is comming shortli)

combine all that +PAFs inabillity to purchase the latest counter measures + low spare parts avibillty & very less flying hours compounded by the numbers it has (18 Blk 52 + 42 MLU=60) which is the best PAF could get + 100 AMRAAM Cs and not to forget PAFs most serous handicap (kill swtich)


while they are against 63 M29s backed by cutting edge tech enablled (ASEA multiple band)Ground based & AWAC supportas we will fight next doar so no range issue here even if you forget top cover given buy MKIs (which F 15s gave to US F 16s)

so the bottom line is PAFs F16s cannot challenge IAFs Mig 29s on any given day on any battel scenario

your onli hope is

1. going neuklear from day one

2. or hope that china fights your war

both of which are practically not possible (specially .2)

so my humble request to all pakistani members ask mods to close this thread .. Thank You :cheers:
 
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