Gujarat Riots 2002

[Joe Shearer]

Bro,

Yes. I was there when it happened.

I do not want to say anything else.

Both gentlemen know well my views.

I repeat. Military trials are not open to civilians.

Cheers, Doc

Doc,

I was trying to help two well-meaning Pakistanis put their thoughts into written form, as an application to the official administration, not to random NGOs, with the thought that this would calm things down. They objected to certain phrases in their private reading of the original draft; I changed it to bring them to the point where they would overcome their discomfort in writing to an Indian government body about an issue that all Pakistanis refuse to recognise as within the jurisdiction of any Indian administrative forum.

You are refusing to acknowledge the situation as it is, and hiding behind a cloud of euphemisms. I have not known you do that before, even in much worse lynch-like situations; on one such occasion, you actually triggered the reaction to the witch-hunt. This standing aloof on this occasion does not disappoint me, because nobody can doubt your moral or physical courage, least of all I, who have stood by you in your moments of worst excess. It does lead me to think that you have some reservations about what I did. If that is so, spit it out; let's not skulk around about it. My conscience is clear; I don't want anybody else to have a clouded mind or sensitivity about what I did, and can walk a lonely furrow when there is a need to. @M. Sarmad has said all that I could have wished to. Unlike you, he is not a personal acquaintance; unlike you, he has exercised his judgement; that, in spite of deep differences that have shown up in our positions on many issues.

It is not your support that I want, or need. Please be very clear about that. It is that you exercise your judgement, and stop being neutral and doing an Achilles sulking in your tents.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Bro,

Yes. I was there when it happened.

I do not want to say anything else.

Both gentlemen know well my views.

I repeat. Military trials are not open to civilians.

Cheers, Doc

Again, this is a public forum where everyone is free to express his opinion.

Here, you earn respect (or disrespect) on the basis of the quality (or the lack thereof) of what you contribute to the discussion(s), and not your background.

I have engaged with both gentlemen quite a few times and I believe that third eye is just another guy with an average intellect with absolutely nothing impressive about him, his views or how he presents them. Joe, OTOH, is in an entirely different league.

As this discussion was/is related to Kashmir, I can tell you with certainty that Joe, with all his knowledge and ability, rightly or wrongly, defends the Indian position on Kashmir in a much better way than any other Indian I have ever come across.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You sure about the bold part? Its a border state with Pakistan, run of Kach!

I am sure. So was the Lieutenant General whom I quoted. For obvious reasons, I do not wish to give you the order of battle, but will refer you to the map, and to the locations of the riots and the locations of the defensive positions on the borders (in general terms, nobody can give you map references without going to jail).

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I am sure. So was the Lieutenant General whom I quoted. For obvious reasons, I do not wish to give you the order of battle, but will refer you to the map, and to the locations of the riots and the locations of the defensive positions on the borders (in general terms, nobody can give you map references without going to jail).

I find it bit odd for an Indian general to come up and say that IA do not have sufficient logistic infra in a state which border Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I find it bit odd for an Indian general to come up and say that IA do not have sufficient logistic infra in a state which border Pakistan.

The circumstances were that he headed a detachment that was NOT in border defensive positions, and the detachment was flown into a main population centre, one of those worst affected. It was conveyed well in advance to the civilian authorities that support would be needed, but they dragged their feet. All the facilities were with the existing formations in existing locations, miles away from where they were needed. Not even the then Prime Minister, Vajpayee, was prepared for the degree of collusion with the rioting that took place; the Army was caught completely unprepared, because normally when it is called in, the civilian authority bends over backwards to cooperate with it and help restore normalcy.

 

[third eye]

Bro,

Yes. I was there when it happened.

I do not want to say anything else.

Both gentlemen know well my views.

I repeat. Military trials are not open to civilians.

Cheers, Doc

Relax, there is no need to exhume to dead to carry out a belated post mortem

I choose not to respond to the Gent nor to @M. Sarmad for two reasons . Firstly since its a dead & buried case so far as I am concerned so lets move on.

We all made our points & chose to disagree which is fair.

Secondly :

 

[Sully3]

after this genocide, Modi was banned for entering USA for 12 whole years on terrorism charges related to this.

Say it loud and say it clear, India PM Modi is a indian hindu terrorist.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Secondly :

@padamchen see^^
And you want 'respect' for this guy?

 

[padamchen]

Doc,

I was trying to help two well-meaning Pakistanis put their thoughts into written form, as an application to the official administration, not to random NGOs, with the thought that this would calm things down. They objected to certain phrases in their private reading of the original draft; I changed it to bring them to the point where they would overcome their discomfort in writing to an Indian government body about an issue that all Pakistanis refuse to recognise as within the jurisdiction of any Indian administrative forum.

You are refusing to acknowledge the situation as it is, and hiding behind a cloud of euphemisms. I have not known you do that before, even in much worse lynch-like situations; on one such occasion, you actually triggered the reaction to the witch-hunt. This standing aloof on this occasion does not disappoint me, because nobody can doubt your moral or physical courage, least of all I, who have stood by you in your moments of worst excess. It does lead me to think that you have some reservations about what I did. If that is so, spit it out; let's not skulk around about it. My conscience is clear; I don't want anybody else to have a clouded mind or sensitivity about what I did, and can walk a lonely furrow when there is a need to. @M. Sarmad has said all that I could have wished to. Unlike you, he is not a personal acquaintance; unlike you, he has exercised his judgement; that, in spite of deep differences that have shown up in our positions on many issues.

It is not your support that I want, or need. Please be very clear about that. It is that you exercise your judgement, and stop being neutral and doing an Achilles sulking in your tents.

Joe,

Since you've asked, I will oblige, with an equally clear conscience.

I have not served. But I have have brothers who have. Who still do. And some have fallen to the violence there.

Let me be as blunt as I can Joe.

Pakistan is the enemy there. Simple. Plain. Clear. Unambiguous. Zero shades of gray.

I too have Pakistani friends like you.

You have strong ties to Kashmiris you count as personal friends. I do not.

I have had some Pandit acquaintances through school and work.

I personally believe that your love for Kashmir and Kashmiris does at times dangerously cloud your judgment, which at other times is 100% clear and for India.

You have in the past tried to talk to me about the same and tried to put before me the Kashmiri view. I remind you of what I told you.

I do not want to hear it. I do not care. If they are against me and my nation and my people, then they are the enemy living on my soil. There is simply no if or but or finer nuance there.

Does this mean there are not good Indian Kashmiris? Of course it does not. But for me and rest of the Indians actions speak louder. Not all of us have Kashmiri friends. But all of us surely do have Indian friends.

You ask, should I make the distinction. Is it politically correct on a Pakistani forum.

I have never shied away from saying that I do not believe the Kashmiris want to stay with India.

I simply do not care.

They are then secessionists and separatists for me. They can live there peacefully. But if they pick up the gun, they will be gunned down.

And my heart bleeds for our men who are gunned down in this fight. Their wives. Their mothers and fathers. Their young kids, often yet unborn. Their friends .... like me.

You remember my exchanges with @TaimiKhan centuries ago?

What you see with me is what you get.

So regardless of your motives, what you did was cross the line.

Now Third Eye over here used a really hard word. Personally, I think that crossed the line too. But he has earned the right. As have you.

None of us here have. I have typed all of this only because you have asked me to.

Honestly for some reason I recall you two having patched up. Maybe its early onset Alzheimers hitting me. Or maybe it was just subconscious hope. Then this blew up again ...

I am sorry if it makes you feel angry or less of me. But it is the truth.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

after this genocide, Modi was banned for entering USA for 12 whole years on terrorism charges related to this.

Say it loud and say it clear, India PM Modi is a indian hindu terrorist.

And be called a pig? By the discriminating gentry who have the last word on this, as on any other matter, and who have the comfort and satisfaction of knowing that they have a claque that will applaud their stabs in the back?

The same general who was deputed to control the situation was, by circumstance, Muslim; in retired life, he was Vice-Chancellor of Aligarh Muslim University. He was harrassed and bullied for every moment of his tenure by the local scoundrel BJP politicians; one of the charges was that he failed to remove the portrait of Jinnah that existed in the University premises.

The same Chief Minister became Prime Minister, and had the appointment of the COAS. Contrary to normal practice, he superseded the seniormost after the retiring chief, superseded the second senior, again a Muslim, and appointed the third in the chain of command, who is the present chief. Comment is superfluous.

But there are those who will uphold their prejudices rather than the honour and dignity of the service that gave them their raison d'etre. O tempora, O mores.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

The circumstances were that he headed a detachment that was NOT in border defensive positions, and the detachment was flown into a main population centre, one of those worst affected. It was conveyed well in advance to the civilian authorities that support would be needed, but they dragged their feet. All the facilities were with the existing formations in existing locations, miles away from where they were needed. Not even the then Prime Minister, Vajpayee, was prepared for the degree of collusion with the rioting that took place; the Army was caught completely unprepared, because normally when it is called in, the civilian authority bends over backwards to cooperate with it and help restore normalcy.

From Pakistani perspective I find this bit odd, here Armed forces do not rely on civilians resources for their logistics, specially if the movement is in or around population centres during crisis situations or a terror attack.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe,

Since you've asked, I will oblige, with an equally clear conscience.

I have not served. But I have have brothers who have. Who still do. And some have fallen to the violence there.

Let me be as blunt as I can Joe.

Pakistan is the enemy there. Simple. Plain. Clear. Unambiguous. Zero shades of gray.

I too have Pakistani friends like you.

You have strong ties to Kashmiris you count as personal friends. I do not.

I have had some Pandit acquaintances through school and work.

I personally believe that your love for Kashmir and Kashmiris does at times dangerously cloud your judgment, which at other times is 100% clear and for India.

You have in the past tried to talk to me about the same and tried to put before me the Kashmiri view. I remind you of what I told you.

I do not want to hear it. I do not care. If they are against me and my nation and my people, then they are the enemy living on my soil. There is simply to if or but or finer nuance there.

Does this mean there are not good Indian Kashmiris? Of course it does not. But for me and rest of the Indians actions speak louder. Not all of us have Kashmiri friends. But all of us surely do have Indian friends.

You ask, should I make the distinction. Is it politically correct on a Pakistani forum.

I have never shied away from saying that I do not believe the Kashmiris want to stay with India.

I simply do not care.

They are then secessionists and separatists for me. They can live there peacefully. But if they pick up the gun, they will be gunned down.

And my heart bleeds for our men who are gunned down in this fight. Their wives. Their mothers and fathers. Their young kids, often yet unborn. Their friends .... like me.

You remember my exchanges with @TaimiKhan centuries ago?

What you see with me is what you get.

So regardless of your motives, what you did was cross the line.

Now Third Eye over here used a really hard word. Personally, I think that crossed the line too. But he has earned the right. As have you.

None of us here have. I have typed all of this only because you have asked me to.

Honestly for some reason I recall you two having patched up. Maybe its early onset Alzheimers hitting me. Or maybe it was just subconscious hope. This this blew up again ...

I am sorry if it makes you feel angry or less of me. But it is the truth.

Cheers, Doc

I am anything but angry, Doc, but need to point out one appalling defect in your position. What happened on that occasion was about Pakistanis joining in with Indian liberal opinion, not to weaken the Indian position in Kashmir, but to add the weight of their voices in a sane and reasonable manner to appeal for moderation. It in no way would have compromised our national position on Kashmir, which, btw, I have defended on every occasion that arose, including those (no offence intended) where red-hot patriots such as you were simply not there.

There was no patch-up. I merely offered an officer and a gentleman the courtesy that his services to our country entitled him to, though he had no thought for that when it was his call. That in no way ameliorates the offence he committed, or my deep-rooted resentment of the insult.

From Pakistani perspective I find this bit odd, here Armed forces do not rely on civilians resources for their logistics, specially if the movement is in or around population centres during crisis situations or a terror attack.

I cannot help you with that. The best is for you to read Zameer Shah's account for yourself. What the Pakistan Army would have done to restore law and order and civilian authority is not what is best to open up here, now. We have examples of those, and it is best to stick to what we are discussing, the foot-dragging obstruction in the face of a murderous situation demonstrated by a partisan administration.

 

[padamchen]

I am anything but angry, Doc, but need to point out one appalling defect in your position. What happened on that occasion was about Pakistanis joining in with Indian liberal opinion, not to weaken the Indian position in Kashmir, but to add the weight of their voices in a sane and reasonable manner to appeal for moderation. It in no way would have compromised our national position on Kashmir, which, btw, I have defended on every occasion that arose, including those (no offence intended) where red-hot patriots such as you were simply not there.

There was no patch-up. I merely offered an officer and a gentleman the courtesy that his services to our country entitled him to, though he had no thought for that when it was his call. That in no way ameliorates the offence he committed, or my deep-rooted resentment of the insult.

Joe!

My man ...

Who are Pakistanis in Kashmir?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe!

My man ...

Who are Pakistanis in Kashmir?

Cheers, Doc

Nobody.

Why is it so difficult to get the point? That it is better to have Pakistani voices speaking to the Indian government, than to have Pakistani fingers pulling the triggers against Indian jawans?

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I cannot help you with that. The best is for you to read Zameer Shah's account for yourself. What the Pakistan Army would have done to restore law and order and civilian authority is not what is best to open up here, now. We have examples of those, and it is best to stick to what we are discussing, the foot-dragging obstruction in the face of a murderous situation demonstrated by a partisan administration.

I don't see what happened in Gujrat as state only issue but country, as a whole, its establishment involved as well. Considering how hindu terrorist organization RSS is penetrated into the armed forces of India, anything is possible.