France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

[Taygibay]

Suggestion if it happens :

France does not produce low-cost fighters anymore so …
say Bulgaria was interested in JF-17 as rumors go then …
having French stuff on board Thunder may clinch deal _ good for Pakistan _
and Thales makes money they wouldn't otherwise _ good for France _?

Just to show a case where it could apply; still not saying it will.

Good evening to you, Tay.

 

[wiseone2]

Suggestion if it happens :

France does not produce low-cost fighters anymore so …
say Bulgaria was interested in JF-17 as rumors go then …
having French stuff on board Thunder may clinch deal _ good for Pakistan _
and Thales makes money they wouldn't otherwise _ good for France _?

Just to show a case where it could apply; still not saying it will.

Good evening to you, Tay.

the western countries and even Russia do not make low cost fighters. the idea is that a few high end aircraft do the job of numerous low end aircraft

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

30 Pages of pure fanboy stuff with no source at all, let alone the official one.

 

[wiseone2]

So your evidence is simply "Believe me, would I lie to you?". I've already shown how dumb your argument is, there is no point in continuing this argument.

India is throwing $15 billion to get the Rafale. They are finding pretty hard to get the French to agree to co-produce it.
You are expecting Pakistan throwing a fraction of that money to get access to the latest avionics to be fitted on Chinese made aircraft.

what is the evidence that france will sell advanced avionics for the jf-17 ?

 

[Taygibay]

the western countries and even Russia do not make low cost fighters. the idea is that a few high end aircraft do the job of numerous low end aircraft

That's what I said, mate! Why quote me?
But there are countries, even a couple in Western Europe that could buy a "low-cost" fighter.
The Baltic states ( and Iceland ) for example rely on rotations of Typhoons and Rafales and many
others to protect their airspace.

And you are right that this so far is all theoretical but answering folks about such things is part of what a military forum is about, you know. Including answering you BTW? As in :
Suppose France sold India the Rafale : India gets the RBE-2 AESA.
Suppose France then RBE-2 PESA for use on the Thunder.
JF-17 gets a very good radar for nations stuck with say unrefurbished Mig-21s.
India still gets a nearly double reach advantage in detection range over it.
France gets paid twice ( and China gets something to run through the photocopiers ).

Everybody wins?
Just sayin' Tay.

 

[wiseone2]

That's what I said, mate! Why quote me?
But there are countries, even a couple in Western Europe that could buy a "low-cost" fighter.
The Baltic states ( and Iceland ) for example rely on rotations of Typhoons and Rafales and many
others to protect their airspace.

And you are right that this so far is all theoretical but answering folks about such things is part of what a military forum is about, you know. Including answering you BTW? As in :
Suppose France sold India the Rafale : India gets the RBE-2 AESA.
Suppose France then RBE-2 PESA for use on the Thunder.
JF-17 gets a very good radar for nations stuck with say unrefurbished Mig-21s.
India still gets a nearly double reach advantage in detection range over it.
France gets paid twice ( and China gets something to run through the photocopiers ).

Everybody wins?
Just sayin' Tay.

For political reasons the Baltics will get F-16s from America.

Every European country has a budget to purchase 40 F-16s on concessional terms. 40 F-16s is approximately $1.5-2 billion. How much cheaper are you going to make the JF-17 ? Is it worth the headache ?

the only real market for the souped up JF-17 is large poor third world state - Pakistan. You can add Indonesia, Nigeria, Argentina, Bangladesh.

 

[Taygibay]

Considering that the combined defense spending of the Baltic States in 2014 was 1.2B Euros,
that the Czech found leased Gripens better than F-16s, that Switzerland refused to spend for them, that Hungary got some,
that Romania's F-16 AM/BM MLUs from Portugal are not going up to FOC as planned, that Bulgaria is struggling to
find 8 new fighters as it cannot maintain its MiGs due to cost, your sentence :

Every European country has a budget to purchase 40 F-16s on concessional terms.

is worth …. say little?

The F-16 line is doing fine, that's true, but the cost is different than that of the Thunder. Oman ( rich ) and the very
captive market that is Iraq have provided for a timeline of production to run until F-35s are delivered.
As soon as the JSF gets there, there will be a generous aftermarket for US and Euro F-16s / MLU opening.
That will take precedence. You could add that the F-16IN ( =latest V ) did not make the MMRCA cut and I'll pass
the Egyptian choice as it has to do with politics mostly but still …

Even assuming that a souped-up F-17 would only be good enough for Third World nations ( your words not mine ),
let me remind you that many more of these exist ( say all over Africa ? ) many of which are Islamic in part or toto
and would thus be likely to shift from Ru to Pak wares without a doubt?

Last but not least, the Baltic States saw how much help they could expect from America with Ukraine!!!
And as they are active participants in European defense, I would not bet on your claim about 'em either.

In any case, my scenario was hypothetical as the sale of French stuff remains as of now and only meant to
respond to what was already an argumentative intervention from you concerning my answer to someone else.
I think I'll let you play by yourself hence and laugh from the sidelines with Danger-Zone.

And are you sure being Indian played no part in that response of yours?
Just wonderin', Tay.

 

[nana41]

Highly placed industrial sources have indicated to me that the deal for advanced Avionics, Radar, EW suite, HMD/S and MICA Missiles for PAF's JF-17 Thunder jets is back on the table. The deal was postponed after India removed Rafale from its MMRCA. Now that the Rafale deal with India is stalling, the French are willing to sell the whole package PAF wants for its Thunder fleet.

@Windjammer

So,if Radar,EW suite,HMD/S and MICA bvr missiles from FRANCE,Engine from Russia or later on from China( ws-13) with Landing Gears and Ejection seats are coming from England ,what is coming from Pakistan, apart from an assembled machine from Kamrah?. 0

 

[monitor]

So,if Radar,EW suite,HMD/S and MICA bvr missiles from FRANCE,Engine from Russia or later on from China( ws-13) with Landing Gears and Ejection seats are coming from England ,what is coming from Pakistan, apart from an assembled machine from Kamrah?. 0

communication system called rohani/roshni, anti runway bomb etc. horus can tell better

 

[wiseone2]

Considering that the combined defense spending of the Baltic States in 2014 was 1.2B Euros,
that the Czech found leased Gripens better than F-16s, that Switzerland refused to spend for them, that Hungary got some,
that Romania's F-16 AM/BM MLUs from Portugal are not going up to FOC as planned, that Bulgaria is struggling to
find 8 new fighters as it cannot maintain its MiGs due to cost, your sentence :

is worth …. say little?

The F-16 line is doing fine, that's true, but the cost is different than that of the Thunder. Oman ( rich ) and the very
captive market that is Iraq have provided for a timeline of production to run until F-35s are delivered.
As soon as the JSF gets there, there will be a generous aftermarket for US and Euro F-16s / MLU opening.
That will take precedence. You could add that the F-16IN ( =latest V ) did not make the MMRCA cut and I'll pass
the Egyptian choice as it has to do with politics mostly but still …

Even assuming that a souped-up F-17 would only be good enough for Third World nations ( your words not mine ),
let me remind you that many more of these exist ( say all over Africa ? ) many of which are Islamic in part or toto
and would thus be likely to shift from Ru to Pak wares without a doubt?

Last but not least, the Baltic States saw how much help they could expect from America with Ukraine!!!
And as they are active participants in European defense, I would not bet on your claim about 'em either.

In any case, my scenario was hypothetical as the sale of French stuff remains as of now and only meant to
respond to what was already an argumentative intervention from you concerning my answer to someone else.
I think I'll let you play by yourself hence and laugh from the sidelines with Danger-Zone.

And are you sure being Indian played no part in that response of yours?
Just wonderin', Tay.

USA is not committed to Ukraine's defense. Ukraine is not member of NATO. Baltic states are.
If your budget is puny there is no point maintaining an air force. Is 10 JF-17s going to make any difference against Russian military.

If the JF-17 was completely 100% Pakistani you might sell a few.

This is the problem with the souped up JF-17 - it needs approval of China, Pakistan, France and Russia (assuming it has a RD-93 engine). Let us say you want to sell to Argentina which has a tense relationship with Britain. What are the Brits going to do ? Put pressure on France. You think France is going to piss off Brits for a few measily $$$ from the JF-17 deal. You apply this kind of logic - you will have very few customers.

you have to find uncontraversial customers in the third world - indonesia, nigeria or tiny countries

 

[That Guy]

India is throwing $15 billion to get the Rafale. They are finding pretty hard to get the French to agree to co-produce it.
You are expecting Pakistan throwing a fraction of that money to get access to the latest avionics to be fitted on Chinese made aircraft.

what is the evidence that france will sell advanced avionics for the jf-17 ?

Actually, you don't even know your own countries deals. India and France don't disagree on co-production, they both want it to happen, they happen to disagree on minor technicalities such as who will take responsibility for Indian produced Rafales.

Again, you don't even know what avionics are, there are more important things than avionics on a fighter that France and the US would worry about.

Besides, before the nuclear sanctions, both France actually agreed to supply avionics to the JF-17, they only relented due to extreme pressure from the EU and US.

France and Germany both have expressed their desire to sell Pakistan submarines with ToT, but the only reason why Pakistan hasn't bought them is because of the financial circumstances. In fact, Pakistan was going to buy German subs a few years ago, and even had the deal all worked out with ToT and local assembly, but Pakistan pulled out of the deal at the last second because of a lack of funds.

Get your facts straight.

 

[rockstar08]

Actually, you don't even know your own countries deals. India and France don't disagree on co-production, they both want it to happen, they happen to disagree on minor technicalities such as who will take responsibility for Indian produced Rafales.

Again, you don't even know what avionics are, there are more important things than avionics on a fighter that France and the US would worry about.

Besides, before the nuclear sanctions, both France actually agreed to supply avionics to the JF-17, they only relented due to extreme pressure from the EU and US.

France and Germany both have expressed their desire to sell Pakistan submarines with ToT, but the only reason why Pakistan hasn't bought them is because of the financial circumstances. In fact, Pakistan was going to buy German subs a few years ago, and even had the deal all worked out with ToT and local assembly, but Pakistan pulled out of the deal at the last second because of a lack of funds.

Get your facts straight.

German subs Type U212 boats i guess .. ?? this deal broke my heart .. if we get with local assembly , it will again be the game changer in south Asian Waters , like Augasta 9B

 

[That Guy]

German subs Type U212 boats i guess .. ?? this deal broke my heart .. if we get with local assembly , it will again be the game changer in south Asian Waters , like Augasta 9B

The deal is still technically on the table, the Germans haven't withdrawn it. If and when Pakistan's situation gets better, expect to hear news about it, especially when Gwadar is completely operational. The Navy is going to have a good next 2 decades, expect PN to expand it's capabilities.

 

[Taygibay]

USA is not committed to Ukraine's defense.

You are a loud mouth ignoramus :
America as the UK guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity in exchange for getting rid of its nukes in 1994.
Here's the document :
United Nations Official Document

"The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;"

Now forget me please, I already have a kid to raise.
Oh and talking out of your ,,,hat with wise in your nick is tantamount to trolling.

I'm sorry for the tone and words but I had told you to stop, that I would leave you be
and you called for more.
Well, you just got served!

Now good bye! Tay.

 

[rockstar08]

The deal is still technically on the table, the Germans haven't withdrawn it. If and when Pakistan's situation gets better, expect to hear news about it, especially when Gwadar is completely operational. The Navy is going to have a good next 2 decades, expect PN to expand it's capabilities.

well i think you are right , its all about how much money you get in your pocket ..
but i think you are assuming a bit to far , i believe we will see at least 2 major deals related to Navy in upcoming 2-3 years ..
Type 21 Frigates are getting very old now , and even pass their retire date ...
they need some Alternative , to replace those 5-6 Frigates ..