France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

[Taygibay]

dont take the thread to yr heart but thats true that french did scrapped the deal on indian saying....

I agree with you on the facts Umair but :

Hilarious...so now a Chinese plane will be integrated with French avionics. .and China intends to export it to many countries?. ..so let me get this straight...pakistan, china and france need to approve any possible international sales because of the French parts.

143511 is also right that the possibility of retro engineering by China if they were allowed to inspect the French equipment played a part. To that, you can add internal disputes the article you linked to mentions as well as remember that it was a different government back then which sadly influences such deals.
I am not saying this is acceptable or proper, just that it is true.
As for taking the thread at heart, it is a matter of reciprocity. I don't insult any nation. Had I said what some are saying here, even on a non-Pakistani forum, that I believe answers would not have been very nice.
Don't do unto others …

Hi,
Logic did not work in this case----the French desperately needed the Rafale deal and attached to it was the submarine deal as well---. The financial mess that france was at that time---it just made them make a bad decision.
You cannot use the logic of what the U S does or what the british do with france. The brains have different of ciruittory.

I understand your point, MKhan but if I compare with the US that attaches control of the weapons it sells to contracts or the blockage of the Gripen sale to Argentina by the UK, I honestly don't feel, on average, all that bad with the choices ( sometimes dubious ) made by my govt.

In any case, having answered the people that took time to formulate coherent polite rebuttals, I will follow your advice and let this thread go but it is always sad when people cannot stay calm enough to carry on a discussion without temperamental judgement.

Good day to all that will accept it, Tay.

 

[Agent Smith]

Pakistanis are going gaga over the fact that they just being used to pressurize India to buy French and Russian weapons. But are Frenchies and Russkies are stupid enough to jeopardize their future deals also by engaging pakistan? we still have the English and American options.

 

[MilSpec]

Now you are being stupid at best. That list shows one thing:
India is heavily dependent on french technology....meaning, France loses the money, but India loses the much needed capability, which it would have trouble sourcing from elsewhere.

You need to realize, France is a highly developed society, a knowledge based society, the loss of billions in deals today, can be made up in other means. So again, France will sell to whomever it wants.

Well, comprehension has never been your strong suite, so let me break it down for you, the mentioned book order, had competition from israel, russia, US, Germany, so India is not dependent on any single source for it's equipment. And 16 Billion Dollars is a fraction of the Indian defence envelope... As always with your petty comments you are nothing but showing ignorance to the fact there is no Pakistani leverage when it comes to defense deals due to sheer size of India's book orders.

If France does decide to arm pakistan against India, then the it has to do a simple risk evaluation of the loss of opportunity in sale to India for the next decade, if the payoff is valid then it should absolutely arm pakistan, if not it doesn't make any business sense.

hope that helps, let me know if you need further disambiguation

 

[Dazzler]

It's not about if it was equal or better, but the fact that JF-17 would be able to utilize the lethality of MICA/Meteor missiles, plus it is always good have different weaponary. French do have a decent Pod variety along with LGBs. It wouldn't hurt to have them, would it? Plus the fact that operation of similar systems that India has or would have, would only help to our preparedness.



Now you are being stupid at best. That list shows one thing:
India is heavily dependent on french technology....meaning, France loses the money, but India loses the much needed capability, which it would have trouble sourcing from elsewhere.

You need to realize, France is a highly developed society, a knowledge based society, the loss of billions in deals today, can be made up in other means. So again, France will sell to whomever it wants.

Nothing is coming from French b**hs. They r just toying hard ball for Rafael deal with indians which is slipping down the board.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

@Taygibay the history and partners of the jet is a well known to everyone. Still We were in the discussions and were rather close to finalize back then. Plus the units pakistan operate are manufectured in pakistan and already have a lot of non chinese and pakistani systems including of western countries. China cant do this what u have claimed since they also have their reputation at stake and also its possible export interests at stake. Its easy to suspect and say then doing........ Our former Air Marshall also said something in the links i shared with u. This was part of a broader deal(if my knowledge is correct) it included the Mirage 2000s as well. Indians influenced that also hence we took the F16s from americans. That was from the times u joined the forum in 2009-2010.French Avionics for JF-17 JF-17 French Avionics Deal On Hold/Cancelled

Go through these threads. They are of same time. The reaction of the members is not out of the blue nor is unsuspected. This was bound to happen.

 

[Rana Thakur]

I wonder if french are just trolling with Pakistanis just like some people here on PDF.

 

[Donatello]

Well, comprehension has never been your strong suite, so let me break it down for you, the mentioned book order, had competition from israel, russia, US, Germany, so India is not dependent on any single source for it's equipment. And 16 Billion Dollars is a fraction of the Indian defence envelope... As always with your petty comments you are nothing but showing ignorance to the fact there is no Pakistani leverage when it comes to defense deals due to sheer size of India's book orders.

If France does decide to arm pakistan against India, then the it has to do a simple risk evaluation of the loss of opportunity in sale to India for the next decade, if the payoff is valid then it should absolutely arm pakistan, if not it doesn't make any business sense.

hope that helps, let me know if you need further disambiguation

France gladly supplied equipment to Pakistan in the past, upgrades for Mirage ROSE, and that too when Pakistan was under sanctions. Not to mention the Agostas and the MESMA AIP.

 

[That Guy]

I'll wait and see.

 

[About.to.be.banned]

Hadn't Pakistanis already inducted Chinese Avionics in JF-17?

Are they ready to pay for a premature MLU in order to replace those Chinese avionics with French?

Are Chines Avionics so inferior that you are ready to throw money spent on buying them into gutter as soon as French avionics become available?

 

[MilSpec]

Highly placed industrial sources have indicated to me that the deal for advanced Avionics, Radar, EW suite, HMD/S and MICA Missiles for PAF's JF-17 Thunder jets is back on the table. The deal was postponed after India removed Rafale from its MMRCA. Now that the Rafale deal with India is stalling, the French are willing to sell the whole package PAF wants for its Thunder fleet.

@Windjammer

Does that indicate that the PAF has low confidence in the SD10 and KLJ7 along with future AESA system that was supposed to be developed by the chinese?

 

[About.to.be.banned]

Now you are being stupid at best. That list shows one thing:
India is heavily dependent on french technology....meaning, France loses the money, but India loses the much needed capability, which it would have trouble sourcing from elsewhere.

You need to realize, France is a highly developed society, a knowledge based society, the loss of billions in deals today, can be made up in other means. So again, France will sell to whomever it wants.

Well,

Germans, Spainyards, Russians, and off late Japanese would be glad to provide Subs ( In case of Germans and Japanese of better quality than French though a little more costly ) to India, if French refuse to supply Scorpene to India. I do not understand what trouble we would have sourcing from elsewhere? India is a paying customer and does not depend on Foreign military aid to buy military hardware.

And Yes, France could sell to whosoever they want, but what incentive they would have to prefer Pakistan over India when India has 10 time big arms market than Pakistan?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Highly placed industrial sources have indicated to me that the deal for advanced Avionics, Radar, EW suite, HMD/S and MICA Missiles for PAF's JF-17 Thunder jets is back on the table. The deal was postponed after India removed Rafale from its MMRCA. Now that the Rafale deal with India is stalling, the French are willing to sell the whole package PAF wants for its Thunder fleet.

@Windjammer

JF-17 has got many things from various other sources so why are these so important that PAF has decided to restart these talks. Would this in some way help PAF or PN in purchasing Rafales ? if that is where these are going to end.

 

[Wolfhound]

oh how i love the french, unknowingly they have put a whole thread in turmoil due to one unconfirmed decision or thought

 

[Basel]

Highly placed industrial sources have indicated to me that the deal for advanced Avionics, Radar, EW suite, HMD/S and MICA Missiles for PAF's JF-17 Thunder jets is back on the table. The deal was postponed after India removed Rafale from its MMRCA. Now that the Rafale deal with India is stalling, the French are willing to sell the whole package PAF wants for its Thunder fleet.

@Windjammer

If True, then they may be playing Pakistan card to pressurize Indian Government.

Now they may have to offer better package then the previous one as now Chinese systems have superseded it in most criteria.

Also French have to make avionics and engine package very attractive as Russia is also willing to provide avionics (may be Zhuk AESA) to Pakistan and PAF may get it with license production, so old offer may not work as current available stuff supersede French offered stuff in many areas.

 

[WishLivePak]

Pakistan should keep upper hand in negotiations and pressure for good deal.

It'd be the reply to he French dropping their sale to us earlier.