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Exclusive: U.S. moves to cut Huawei off from global chip suppliers

The winner of trade war and decoupling depends on number of important allies.

So far China has Russia in her camp. She need to make some nations in Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand rebel.

Israel, Canada, Mexico will not rebel.
 
I think in an event short of war, Europe and perhaps Japan would pay lip service to the US but not engage in truly hostile actions against China but in a near war footing which is where this is all leading to, all bets are off.
No bets are off, what will actually happen is that Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese companies will do their best to cut the US out of their supply chains so they can continue to do business with China. You might doubt China's technological prowess - I don't, but you make a cottage industry of underestimating China. Alright, let's grant that you're right and China sucks at tech; do Japan, Korea, and Taiwan similarly suck at tech? Can't they work among themselves to cut the US out?

All the US will accomplish is isolating itself.
 
No bets are off, what will actually happen is that Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese companies will do their best to cut the US out of their supply chains so they can continue to do business with China. You might doubt China's technological prowess - I don't, but you make a cottage industry of underestimating China. Alright, let's grant that you're right and China sucks at tech; do Japan, Korea, and Taiwan similarly suck at tech? Can't they work among themselves to cut the US out?

All the US will accomplish is isolating itself.

If I am underestimating China, then you are overestimating China to the point of hyperbole.

I am not underestimating China on tech. China's tech has made immense progress in the last 10 years but it still lags in many cutting edge areas. There is no point comparing China to Japan, Korea or Taiwan because those countries won't be isolated or cut off from cutting edge tech supplied by America's umbrella of allies like China will be. No country can successfully build a comprehensive and leading tech industry in isolation, which is what the US is trying to accomplish, isolating and containing China.

China's "friends" like Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, etc. are poor and do not have much to offer China. Unlike the US, whose umbrella of allies contain the world's most powerful and wealthy allies. China's most useful friend is Russia, but Russia really only leads on some military and space related technology, although it has already aided China significantly in many ways. The US has many "useful friends", China really only has one, Russia.
 
If I am underestimating China, then you are overestimating China to the point of hyperbole.

I am not underestimating China on tech. China's tech has made immense progress in the last 10 years but it still lags in many cutting edge areas. There is no point comparing China to Japan, Korea or Taiwan because those countries won't be isolated or cut off from cutting edge tech supplied by America's umbrella of allies like China will be. No country can successfully build a comprehensive and leading tech industry in isolation, which is what the US is trying to accomplish, isolating and containing China.

China's "friends" like Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, etc. are poor and do not have much to offer China. Unlike the US, whose umbrella of allies contain the world's most powerful and wealthy allies. China's most useful friend is Russia, but Russia really only leads on some military and space related technology, although it has already aided China significantly in many ways. The US has many "useful friends", China really only has one, Russia.
That is a strategic alliance. But when comes to commercial alliance, SK , Japan and China are linked. If SK and Japan cut off from China supply chain. Who is going to feed them? You think American? Cutting off from China is a matter of life or death. Do u know how much chips and semi con SK export to China?
 
Are you sure the ban will cut off 90% Huawei revenue? Huawei supplies various products. Communication equipment, chips, computers, phones, TV.... The biggest market of all the products is China.
Take a look at this...

bAkMYHU.jpg


Am sure you recognize the name on the far right column, no? What you see is a shot of a monitor, not a computer screenshot.

Every wafer virtually cross my virtual desk. A batch of wafers is called a 'lot'. Each lot have a final destination, in this case, these wafers are scheduled for Huawei. Each client can have a specific flow and can be as specific as from wafer start to ship. That is essentially what a contract fab does -- make wafers for various clients based on their recipes. A client can buy generic wafers and request custom test programs, in this case, these wafers were tested under a custom Huawei flow. Remember, every wafer virtually cross my virtual desk. I have colleagues under my supervision who executes certain processes so I do not have to work on every wafer, but essentially, every wafer virtually cross my virtual desk.

Let us take the average cell phone from any maker. Every component inside that cell phone have a one-yr supply chain built in. Every component mean literally exactly that. Down to the solder on the PCB. It mean that there is a supplier that is contracted to the cell phone maker for one yr. The contract can be renewed or even (re)negotiated for more than one yr. But usually, for the cell phone maker, at least one yr is preferred to ensure production and eventual market stability. The same idea applies to washing machines, farm tractors, cars, and so on.

What would happen if I -- a cog in a corporate machine -- decide to scrap those wafers destined for Huawei? The scrap decision could be technically legitimate, as in reviewing the test data, each wafer have enough dies that failed thresholds, so after a certain percentage of 'bad' dies, Huawei authorizes full wafer discard. All clients do this. There is no financially justifiable reason to work on a wafer that is below %50 good dies. An obsolete product may justify but not currently available products. NASA paid premiums on obsolete products because NASA want only matured 'chips' to go into space, so as a side note, NASA uses tech that are about 5 yrs old. Same for the European Space Agency and CNSA. You can bet your life on it because Chinese astronauts did.

But what if I decide to scrap those Huawei wafers because I do not like China? Huawei's supply chains are flexible enough to cover these wafers without disrupting production flow. Huawei already authorized me to scrap wafers based on certain criteria. Now extrapolate this up to the corporate level, meaning some, not all, US companies in Huawei's supply chains have to obey laws that forbid dealing business with Huawei and the laws says 'effectively immediately'. Now extrapolate this up to the national level, meaning all US companies, all European companies under their respective laws, and all Asian companies under their respective laws.

You can bet your life that Huawei's overseas business WILL be crippled. Much, not just many, of Huawei's internal Chinese supply chains overall ALL of Huawei's product range are highly dependent on foreign companies as OEMs, so China's internal market will not be able to sustain Huawei without governmental assistance.

Behind Huawei's tough talk exterior and the Chinese government's aggressive bluster are terrified executives, and I do mean TERRIFIED. Huawei is a national asset. The Orange One (Trump) was not what China expected. Not what anyone expected. That one-yr supply chain is like a massive fully loaded tanker ship that takes klicks to make turns and to stop. Huawei cannot simply turn to alternate vendors and expect all of them to abandon their current obligations just to work for Huawei. Not even Chinese companies can do that because they too, have their own one-yr supply chain to steer.

You do not have to believe everything I said above. You can say the image is Photoshop-ed and I do not care one bit. I am in the industry. You are not. You and most of your pals on this forum do not know what you are talking about. Your China is far more vulnerable than you think. Far more vulnerable than US. :enjoy:
 
That is a strategic alliance. But when comes to commercial alliance, SK , Japan and China are linked. If SK and Japan cut off from China supply chain. Who is going to feed them? You think American? Cutting off from China is a matter of life or death. Do u know how much chips and semi con SK export to China?

Sure, it will hurt. But they will do it if it gets to be a war footing between the US and China. This is the difference between having allies and not having allies. When they are forced to finally choose, they will choose their ally.

Also, the goal of American strategists are to move these supply chains out of China so S. Korea, Japan and Europe aren't dependent on China either.
 
Sure, it will hurt. But they will do it if it gets to be a war footing between the US and China. This is the difference between having allies and not having allies. When they are forced to finally choose, they will choose their ally.


Also, the goal of American strategists are to move these supply chains out of China so S. Korea, Japan and Europe aren't dependent on China either.

Strategic alliance is useless. Commercial alliance is priority. Having food on the table is priority than anything. China is the reason for most of SK and Japan economy growth.
 
Take a look at this...

bAkMYHU.jpg


Am sure you recognize the name on the far right column, no? What you see is a shot of a monitor, not a computer screenshot.

Every wafer virtually cross my virtual desk. A batch of wafers is called a 'lot'. Each lot have a final destination, in this case, these wafers are scheduled for Huawei. Each client can have a specific flow and can be as specific as from wafer start to ship. That is essentially what a contract fab does -- make wafers for various clients based on their recipes. A client can buy generic wafers and request custom test programs, in this case, these wafers were tested under a custom Huawei flow. Remember, every wafer virtually cross my virtual desk. I have colleagues under my supervision who executes certain processes so I do not have to work on every wafer, but essentially, every wafer virtually cross my virtual desk.

Let us take the average cell phone from any maker. Every component inside that cell phone have a one-yr supply chain built in. Every component mean literally exactly that. Down to the solder on the PCB. It mean that there is a supplier that is contracted to the cell phone maker for one yr. The contract can be renewed or even (re)negotiated for more than one yr. But usually, for the cell phone maker, at least one yr is preferred to ensure production and eventual market stability. The same idea applies to washing machines, farm tractors, cars, and so on.

What would happen if I -- a cog in a corporate machine -- decide to scrap those wafers destined for Huawei? The scrap decision could be technically legitimate, as in reviewing the test data, each wafer have enough dies that failed thresholds, so after a certain percentage of 'bad' dies, Huawei authorizes full wafer discard. All clients do this. There is no financially justifiable reason to work on a wafer that is below %50 good dies. An obsolete product may justify but not currently available products. NASA paid premiums on obsolete products because NASA want only matured 'chips' to go into space, so as a side note, NASA uses tech that are about 5 yrs old. Same for the European Space Agency and CNSA. You can bet your life on it because Chinese astronauts did.

But what if I decide to scrap those Huawei wafers because I do not like China? Huawei's supply chains are flexible enough to cover these wafers without disrupting production flow. Huawei already authorized me to scrap wafers based on certain criteria. Now extrapolate this up to the corporate level, meaning some, not all, US companies in Huawei's supply chains have to obey laws that forbid dealing business with Huawei and the laws says 'effectively immediately'. Now extrapolate this up to the national level, meaning all US companies, all European companies under their respective laws, and all Asian companies under their respective laws.

You can bet your life that Huawei's overseas business WILL be crippled. Much, not just many, of Huawei's internal Chinese supply chains overall ALL of Huawei's product range are highly dependent on foreign companies as OEMs, so China's internal market will not be able to sustain Huawei without governmental assistance.

Behind Huawei's tough talk exterior and the Chinese government's aggressive bluster are terrified executives, and I do mean TERRIFIED. Huawei is a national asset. The Orange One (Trump) was not what China expected. Not what anyone expected. That one-yr supply chain is like a massive fully loaded tanker ship that takes klicks to make turns and to stop. Huawei cannot simply turn to alternate vendors and expect all of them to abandon their current obligations just to work for Huawei. Not even Chinese companies can do that because they too, have their own one-yr supply chain to steer.

You do not have to believe everything I said above. You can say the image is Photoshop-ed and I do not care one bit. I am in the industry. You are not. You and most of your pals on this forum do not know what you are talking about. Your China is far more vulnerable than you think. Far more vulnerable than US. :enjoy:
That's a lot of craps. At least 60% Huawei market is in China. US can not force Chinese not to buy Huawei products. Your 90% cut off revenue is a joke.
 
Strategic alliance is useless. Commercial alliance is priority. Having food on the table is priority than anything. China is the reason for most of SK and Japan economy growth.

This is exactly why the US will force a situation where these countries will be forced to choose. Yes, they will be taken there kicking and screaming but when they are forced to choose, they will choose the US and abandon China. Look at what is happening with TSMC.

That's a lot of craps. At least 60% Huawei market is in China. US can not force Chinese not to buy Huawei products. Your 90% cut off revenue is a joke.

He said Huawei's foreign market will collapse, which is true. He wasn't talking about its domestic market, however, that will be impacted too if Huawei can't produce competitive phones.
 
That's a lot of craps. At least 60% Huawei market is in China. US can not force Chinese not to buy Huawei products. Your 90% cut off revenue is a joke.
Where did I said that? You have a readiing comprehension problem. But then again, we can chalk it up to your ignorance about business and manufacturing in general for that misconception.
 
This is exactly why the US will force a situation where these countries will be forced to choose. Yes, they will be taken there kicking and screaming but when they are forced to choose, they will choose the US and abandon China. Look at what is happening with TSMC.



He said Huawei's foreign market will collapse, which is true. He wasn't talking about its domestic market, however, that will be impacted too if Huawei can't produce competitive phones.
SK and Japan will resist. You are now trying to smash up someone ricebowl. That is strictly off limit. Japan and SK trade and growth heavily depend on China. There is nothing to choose. TSMC still has many customers beside Huawei but SK and Japan are different from that case. China is a heavy weight customers and American is not able to absorb most of their products.
 
SK and Japan will resist. You are now trying to smash up someone ricebowl. That is strictly off limit. Japan and SK trade and growth heavily depend on China. There is nothing to choose. TSMC still has many customers beside Huawei but SK and Japan are different from that case. China is a heavy weight customers and American is not able to absorb most of their products.

South Korea and Japan hates China. Yes, they do a lot of business with China, but when enough pressure is exerted, they will make their choice and it won't be with China.

Let me explain this to you. Right now, the goal of American strategy is to make sure it isn't business as usual with China. This is why China has been demonized and made it into a human rights monster in the past few years. This is why the deep state released the virus in China and made it the culprit. This is why the US is ratcheting up tensions almost to the point of war so that companies feel nervous about investing in China.

The US will push circumstances to a war footing or near war footing. When it gets to that point, SK and Japan will pull out. You are way too optimistic. Chinese kids are taught every day that Japan is their biggest enemy and here you are thinking they will go out of their way for China's benefit. LMAO Yes, they will take a hit, but they will absorb it and side with the US when push comes to shove.
 
SK and Japan will resist. You are now trying to smash up someone ricebowl. That is strictly off limit. Japan and SK trade and growth heavily depend on China. There is nothing to choose. TSMC still has many customers beside Huawei but SK and Japan are different from that case. China is a heavy weight customers and American is not able to absorb most of their products.
China's status as the world's manufacturer is on its way down. Sure, every product have its one-yr supply chain to maneuver, but because of COVID-19 and China's threats to the world, other countries will now assess their relationships with China. When you threatened to withhold pharma products to US, other countries sees themselves as extensions of US, as in 'What about me?'. You cannot force others to invest with you.
 
This is exactly why the US will force a situation where these countries will be forced to choose. Yes, they will be taken there kicking and screaming but when they are forced to choose, they will choose the US and abandon China. Look at what is happening with TSMC.



He said Huawei's foreign market will collapse, which is true. He wasn't talking about its domestic market, however, that will be impacted too if Huawei can't produce competitive phones.
US could force its allies to make a choose between US and Soviet Union. Because:1, US economy was at its peak in 1950's. More than 60% of world output. 2, Soviet Union was nether a big market nor big investment destination. It was an enegy and raw materials supplier, which could be easily replaced.

Forcing Japan and S.Korea to leave China market is like forcing them to kill themselves. If US does that, the one who was isolated is US itself.
 
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US could force its allies to make a choose between US and Soviet Union. Because:1, US economy was at its peak at 1950's. More than 60% of world output. 2, Soviet Union was nether a big market nor big investment destination. It was a enegy and raw material supplier, which could be easily replaced.

Forcing Japan and S.Korea to leave China market is like forcing them to kill themselves. If US does that, the one who was isolated is US itself.

SK and Japan are not going to die because they lose the Chinese market, especially if the US is able to shift supply chains out of China. They will be hurt, but they won't die. If the US exacerbates tensions where it is near the point of a shooting war, you can bet Japan and SK will be siding with the US. That might happen in the next 1-2 years.
 
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