Featured Ex Air Chief Sohail Aman interview with Qalam Camera

[PakFactor]

Good but paf should focus on EW suit and radar and avionics in indigenous will sharpeen teetch of our future technologies

The key here brother is collaboration between private sector + universities -- this will allow the new crop of talent to learn the current technologies by mastering it and then building upon it. We would need fast track programs and courses to quickly give basic knowledge out and build interest in this particular field.

 

[mingle]

Ex ACM excellently exposed the Endian's hype.
The only thing which is missing is future procurement for PAF & F-16 block V up-gradation.

That's not his Domain anymore he tried 8 blk52 s Dar and Bao jee poured cold water on him by diverting same amount towards media bribe

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Turkey , being part of the Azm Project would be tremendous Boost
Really looking forward to 100% Indigenous , Stealth plane design

This would be no doubt a big game changer project , the most important project post Nuclear Weapons


Some people have stated

• Chinese J-20 might be an inspiration
• Or Chinese J-31 might be an inspiration

Will it be just a enhancement of JF17 Product to be stealthy , or will it be a 100% new plane
with complete Unique characteristics

 

[ARMalik]

The cause you identify for this intellectual poverty of the army can be removed simply by restructuring the military. Let me explain what I mean, the Pakistan and Indian armies have a structure that was built in accordance with the kind of warfare the world saw during the two world wars - that is, the deployment of force on a grand scale that is more quantitative than qualitative. The events that followed the independence kept such a deployment of force relevant for a while. Since the Pakistani military is in the habit of using brute force for its purposes, it lacks any experience in using wit and ingenuity in problem-solving. You can also see this reflected in its response to politics and internal security. On the other hand, the air force is usually obliged to rely on subtlety and ingenuity to compensate for its lack of brute force. I would suggest that the army be resized and transformed into a more mobile, better equipped, and better trained force such that it is similarly obliged to rely more on its intellectual faculties. And thus you have enlarged the pool that was hitherto too small for your purposes.

Stop this please, you are embarrassing yourself. Your statement comparing IQ levels of COAS is nothing short of extreme ignorance. You should have never made such slanderous remarks.

 

[HaMoTZeMaS]

There is a probability that world's key tech giants will be sucked into Pakistan's AZM project

Because They have Seen PAF how remarkably inputed the concepts to chinese during making of JF17.
This talent of directing the manufecturers is THE KEY that could challenge the future concepts of any world leader in tech and manufecturing.

 

[blain2]

The average army officer also has a lower bar to entry than the PAF and has to spend less on training and exposure accordingly - however, the COAS is the product of an older generation and things are improving rapidly.
Today’s average colonel isnt the gagoo whom I worked with at some point developing equipment and couldn’t tell the difference between a Su-30 or mig, or a Wire and Laser guided ATGM.
Nor are such gagoos representative of the norm - however, bear in mind that the system’s merit tends to fail as the pool for going up gets smaller. So other knowledge areas such as relationship building and politics comes into light more and more. This is true to different extents in all organizations- military or civilian -Pakistani or the world. What differentiates them is commitment of the whole to the cause of the organization.

@PanzerKiel @jaibi

I don't think it's fair to deduce that an average army officer has a lower bar to entry or he spends less time in training etc. than a PAF officer. With PAF, the combat aviation gets to pick the cream of the crop from within the nation. Thankfully ours is a youthful nation and the PAF's selection levels can remain very high.

However, the two are different streams. What the army officers need to learn is specific to their arm or special to arm knowledge.

Army officers in the C4I Dte or Engineers would be more technical in their area than an average infantry, artillery or armor officer. In the CAE, the engineering types from across the 3 services perform well.

In general, the Air Force is the most technical of all services. Even those who serve on the ground are supporting systems that require a higher degree of technical education than their counterparts in the army or navy. Secondly, and even more importantly when comparing the officers, PAF is the only service where it's fighting edge is always led by the officer who fights and the rest support him. In the army and navy, officers command and as and when needed, fight. As such, Air Force officers, specially those in combat flying, are much more hands-on on the systems in use.

Typically, even in the US military, an average army officer would not know much about how the USAF works or what weapon systems are in use there. Unless officers are working in the operations branch of a joint directorate, they remain focused on their arm and even within the arm, their expertise may be very specific or general.

Lastly, a lot of the knowledge comes down to the individual. There are army officers who are extremely well read and take an interest in what they are doing and what is going on around them. Similarly there are quite a few who are completely checked out for various reasons (superceded, no interest in serving any longer, family issues etc.) and one would find their level of technical knowledge limited.

I think the military at one point in time will need to start pulling in recruits from the more well established schools and universities. This attempt to make the military service accessible to all the demographics is alright, however to improve the standards, the military has to bring in people at the very high end of our educational spectrum.

 

[blain2]

During my dad's tenure in PAF I interacted with different officers on different bases some of the memorable names are:

1. Validslav Turowicz (never met him, met his daughters, wife and I was always impressed)
2. The "M.M.Alam"
3. Asghar Khan
4. Nur Khan
5. Mushaf Ali Mir (in his honor our elder son too is nicknamed by his grandad as Mashoo)
6. Sohail Aman
7. My class fellow hopefully going to make flag rank soon

PAF of today is due to 1-4 gentlemen their contributions are just too much, Sohail sb worked with my dad perhaps ADC or something he is one sharp person used to be an excellent sportsman, upright and extremely perceptive. Normally this is what you expect from PAF flag rank GDP.

One of the best thing Pakistan armed forces have developed as a culture is that they are really tight lipped about their capabilities. Some of the previous lessons have driven so deep that it has become a rule, a belief that there will never be a 71, we will never be caught with our pants down, civilian rulers no matter how good will never be allowed to cause another Indus water or Kargil, Shareef Family will never again be allowed to oust any COAS even if it means to have Musharraf as COAS.

Not even Americans know what we have been upto and which red line we crossed when, even if it means home grown ECM/EW. His interview hints in the same direction. As for Rafael and S400 as they say we'll cross that bridge...... every platform has its strength and its weaknesses, strengths could be turned into weaknesses and weaknesses can be exploited all that is required is commitment, resolve and perseverance.

Now for the IQ thing we the class fellows/batch mates have discussed this matter for over a decade, one of us was at a key position in ISSB and we discussed why average intelligence of Officers is dropping and he was pretty opinionated about his statement "officers are a product of our educational system if you see a deterioration in the intelligence this means your education system is deteriorating"

The main culprit behind deterioration of officer intelligence was Zia, whose minion started a cult where people with certain religious traits were promoted and then the dominos effect, thank goodness that era of horror is over.

For the difference in IQ here is a practical example many of us (the class fellows) came from the same school, and many from the same college. Our college section after FSc result was one of the best ever in terms if positions in the board. It was a fiercely competitive section with some of the best teachers of twin cities as lecturers. The difference between various positions in exams was no more than 2-3. Most of us applied for commission in various forces only 1 of us made it to PAF GDP hopefully will make flag rank this year, 4 of us went to PN (including me) to date 2 have made it to flag rank, and I think 10 odd went to PA three have made to flag rank rest have retired. If memory serves me right Army batch was 4 times that of NAVY, Airforce two times. Preliminary entrance test in PN was a b**ch, those who made it to PA mentioned upon sharing that theirs was the easiest of the three and PAF was the toughest.

But one should do an analysis how many appear in ISSB every year, how many qualify and out of each batch how many make it to the flag rank.

The physical requirements for a GDP brings it down to fractions of population size, then comes intelligence so you have may be less than actually 100 per batch. PN being smaller member yet have the same challenges less physical (may be lower than PA debatable) yet higher on the IQ chart because X officer even the engineering corps are commanding/leading/managing multi million dollars weapons platform.

However, the type of course forces are introducing and putting the young officer through them has started to raise the bar, and those who are unable to cope with the war of today well you see them retiring even at captain level. Not all of them are due to medical reason.



My dear sir I have yet to meet an officer with this type of traits, even if he is a retired captain, and not even an honorary captain.

BTW what these low IQed officers did to the plans aimed at disintegration of Pakistan and, the new great games are now being analyzed at micro level by many think tank across the globe. Strange many people in the west and arab states have started calling us "Markhor"

Fantastic post! I could not agree with you more. You have nailed each and every point. Specially the one about the quality of our officers reflecting the educational standards within the country.

I remember there was a time when going to the PMA and not having command of the English language prior to it used to be a daunting dilemma for many. The idea was that the Army would enable a below average officer to rise above because the systems created allowed for such growth. The challenge, as you very rightly stated, was when Zia sahib in his illogical rush made Islam synonymous with Urdu medium. With that we lost a lot of investment in the language which is still the hallmark of technical education.

It was only in the 90's that this realization came to fore and now all sorts of Americanized, bastardized English learning institutes have appeared all over the country.

I am not suggesting learning angraizi is the panacea for the military. However, when Urdu does not keep up with the technical, scientific works (opposite of what has been the case with Turkish), then our intake will continue to suffer and not be able to compete and participate in highly technical initiatives like Project Azm and others.

 

[ARMalik]

Higher IQ individuals are always in short quantity....

No one would like higher IQ individuals to get blown on roads.... Trying to capture a random peak against an entrenched enemy which facing a hail of bullets or missiles.....
... Manning CPs at busy roads in cities where anyone can bump into them....
... Cleaning sewerage etc like it is being done in Karachi....
... Mounting hostage rescue operations which can mean certain death for the first officer who enters that deadly room...... If I remember correctly, Capt Salman Farooq, SSG, Lal Masjid op... His body had more than 30 bullet entry points.....

.... Ground forces is an entirely different league altogether. Here, an officer may not have to handle multi million dollar equipment for which a very high IQ and knowledge is required.....
Here what matters is self example, leading from the front, sharing all hardships with your troops, sleeping under open sky, motivating your troops and then joining them in the march towards death....

Then, due to obvious reasons, ground forces also suffer large casualties, officers included, then other forces. It's nothing special, it's just their job and duty....

Whereas in Air force.... The equipment, aircraft, the demands on a fighter pilot to make quick calculations, OODA loop, survival in the air, all of this requires a person of a much higher IQ.... That's why induction in PAF is much more difficult than army....

Simple question.... Would you like your higher quality stuff to be risked everyday..... Or maybe a 27FebEvent once a year......?

As far as your comments are concerned, regarding the embarrassing IQ of an average army officer.... Well... These average IQ army officers and their achievements.....must be no less than miracles, isn't it.......

I mean average IQ officers mounted innumerable hostage rescue Ops...

average IQ officers also fought against highly trained terrorists for decades, and brought peace to our country....

average IQ officers are also called in aid to civil governments... From elections to floods and city cleaning....

average IQ officers also form part of organizations like ISI etc who are wreaking havoc in enemy ranks in multi ways...

average IQ officers saved innumerable lives by their daring actions....

... In a nutshell..... Whether it a natural disaster, enemy ground forces ingressing along thousands of kilometers of our borders, internal security,..... These average IQ officers are always found at the forefront.

I wonder what makes them do all this.

From
(AN EXTREMELY LOW IQ OFFICER)

A fantastic post a usual buddy !

 

[ARMalik]

During my dad's tenure in PAF I interacted with different officers on different bases some of the memorable names are:

1. Validslav Turowicz (never met him, met his daughters, wife and I was always impressed)
2. The "M.M.Alam"
3. Asghar Khan
4. Nur Khan
5. Mushaf Ali Mir (in his honor our elder son too is nicknamed by his grandad as Mashoo)
6. Sohail Aman
7. My class fellow hopefully going to make flag rank soon

PAF of today is due to 1-4 gentlemen their contributions are just too much, Sohail sb worked with my dad perhaps ADC or something he is one sharp person used to be an excellent sportsman, upright and extremely perceptive. Normally this is what you expect from PAF flag rank GDP.

One of the best thing Pakistan armed forces have developed as a culture is that they are really tight lipped about their capabilities. Some of the previous lessons have driven so deep that it has become a rule, a belief that there will never be a 71, we will never be caught with our pants down, civilian rulers no matter how good will never be allowed to cause another Indus water or Kargil, Shareef Family will never again be allowed to oust any COAS even if it means to have Musharraf as COAS.

Not even Americans know what we have been upto and which red line we crossed when, even if it means home grown ECM/EW. His interview hints in the same direction. As for Rafael and S400 as they say we'll cross that bridge...... every platform has its strength and its weaknesses, strengths could be turned into weaknesses and weaknesses can be exploited all that is required is commitment, resolve and perseverance.

Now for the IQ thing we the class fellows/batch mates have discussed this matter for over a decade, one of us was at a key position in ISSB and we discussed why average intelligence of Officers is dropping and he was pretty opinionated about his statement "officers are a product of our educational system if you see a deterioration in the intelligence this means your education system is deteriorating"

The main culprit behind deterioration of officer intelligence was Zia, whose minion started a cult where people with certain religious traits were promoted and then the dominos effect, thank goodness that era of horror is over.

For the difference in IQ here is a practical example many of us (the class fellows) came from the same school, and many from the same college. Our college section after FSc result was one of the best ever in terms if positions in the board. It was a fiercely competitive section with some of the best teachers of twin cities as lecturers. The difference between various positions in exams was no more than 2-3. Most of us applied for commission in various forces only 1 of us made it to PAF GDP hopefully will make flag rank this year, 4 of us went to PN (including me) to date 2 have made it to flag rank, and I think 10 odd went to PA three have made to flag rank rest have retired. If memory serves me right Army batch was 4 times that of NAVY, Airforce two times. Preliminary entrance test in PN was a b**ch, those who made it to PA mentioned upon sharing that theirs was the easiest of the three and PAF was the toughest.

But one should do an analysis how many appear in ISSB every year, how many qualify and out of each batch how many make it to the flag rank.

The physical requirements for a GDP brings it down to fractions of population size, then comes intelligence so you have may be less than actually 100 per batch. PN being smaller member yet have the same challenges less physical (may be lower than PA debatable) yet higher on the IQ chart because X officer even the engineering corps are commanding/leading/managing multi million dollars weapons platform.

However, the type of course forces are introducing and putting the young officer through them has started to raise the bar, and those who are unable to cope with the war of today well you see them retiring even at captain level. Not all of them are due to medical reason.



My dear sir I have yet to meet an officer with this type of traits, even if he is a retired captain, and not even an honorary captain.

BTW what these low IQed officers did to the plans aimed at disintegration of Pakistan and, the new great games are now being analyzed at micro level by many think tank across the globe. Strange many people in the west and arab states have started calling us "Markhor"

Fantastic post buddy ! I had the honor of studying some of my engineering at PNS Jauhar many years ago, and knew some of the junior officers studying for their BE Engineering degrees. I have to say they were some of the sharpest minds I had ever met. Same with my Army friends; these officers came studying O' and A'Level systems, and are extremely smart and sophisticated people.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Since everyone is adding their side, my father in an officer from the same era as Gen Qamar, maybe like a year or two of difference and reading some of these posts I get a feeling that people are defining the word “sharpness” wrong. As PanzerKiel Said, you won’t send a pilot to storm a building with terrorists, you’d send a Jawan. No matter how sharp or educated or “high IQ” the pilot is, the Jawan will get the job done better. So it’s a matter of being good at your particular job, that being said, I’ve seen that good officers have adapted to the changing times, and that’s what I see in my father, he went into the PMA a kid from the “Kacha ilakas” that in his own words “thought of a sentence in Punjabi, translated it into Urdu and by the time I said it in broken English, the moment was gone” to one of the most gentlemanly people and officers I’ve ever met. And the Soldier of today that is literate and can share many opinions about the world is a far cry from the Soldiers I saw growing up 15 years ago that basically just knew how to operate their weapon and listen to orders. There’s always bad nuts but then there’s always the gems, but growing up in the military I’ve definitely seen a major improvement. The rest of the proof is in their achievements.


I haven’t read a lot of the posts up there so I’m sorry if this is pretty off topic.

 

[PakFactor]

Since everyone is adding their side, my father in an officer from the same era as Gen Qamar, maybe like a year or two of difference and reading some of these posts I get a feeling that people are defining the word “sharpness” wrong. As PanzerKiel Said, you won’t send a pilot to storm a building with terrorists, you’d send a Jawan. No matter how sharp or educated or “high IQ” the pilot is, the Jawan will get the job done better. So it’s a matter of being good at your particular job, that being said, I’ve seen that good officers have adapted to the changing times, and that’s what I see in my father, he went into the PMA a kid from the “Kacha ilakas” that in his own words “thought of a sentence in Punjabi, translated it into Urdu and by the time I said it in broken English, the moment was gone” to one of the most gentlemanly people and officers I’ve ever met. And the Soldier of today that is literate and can share many opinions about the world is a far cry from the Soldiers I saw growing up 15 years ago that basically just knew how to operate their weapon and listen to orders. There’s always bad nuts but then there’s always the gems, but growing up in the military I’ve definitely seen a major improvement. The rest of the proof is in their achievements.


I haven’t read a lot of the posts up there so I’m sorry if this is pretty off topic.

Not at all bro, the more we share about the growth of our jawans and officers over time the better it makes the rest of us feel knowing that the country is left in good hands like brother @PanzerKiel and other officers.

 

[ps3linux]

@PanzerKiel ,@ARMalik , @SQ8 , @blain2 , @PakFactor

Gentlemen I think the topic we have been discussing apart from CAS (R) Interview it requires more pondering, and I have decided to start a new thread analyzing the same perhaps in more detail. I'll tag you when I am ready and will be honored with your inputs. May be later we could request the mods to shift part of this thread to the new one, may be.

 

[MastanKhan]

Higher IQ individuals are always in short quantity....

No one would like higher IQ individuals to get blown on roads.... Trying to capture a random peak against an entrenched enemy which facing a hail of bullets or missiles.....
... Manning CPs at busy roads in cities where anyone can bump into them....
... Cleaning sewerage etc like it is being done in Karachi....
... Mounting hostage rescue operations which can mean certain death for the first officer who enters that deadly room...... If I remember correctly, Capt Salman Farooq, SSG, Lal Masjid op... His body had more than 30 bullet entry points.....

.... Ground forces is an entirely different league altogether. Here, an officer may not have to handle multi million dollar equipment for which a very high IQ and knowledge is required.....
Here what matters is self example, leading from the front, sharing all hardships with your troops, sleeping under open sky, motivating your troops and then joining them in the march towards death....

Then, due to obvious reasons, ground forces also suffer large casualties, officers included, then other forces. It's nothing special, it's just their job and duty....

Whereas in Air force.... The equipment, aircraft, the demands on a fighter pilot to make quick calculations, OODA loop, survival in the air, all of this requires a person of a much higher IQ.... That's why induction in PAF is much more difficult than army....

Simple question.... Would you like your higher quality stuff to be risked everyday..... Or maybe a 27FebEvent once a year......?

As far as your comments are concerned, regarding the embarrassing IQ of an average army officer.... Well... These average IQ army officers and their achievements.....must be no less than miracles, isn't it.......

I mean average IQ officers mounted innumerable hostage rescue Ops...

average IQ officers also fought against highly trained terrorists for decades, and brought peace to our country....

average IQ officers are also called in aid to civil governments... From elections to floods and city cleaning....

average IQ officers also form part of organizations like ISI etc who are wreaking havoc in enemy ranks in multi ways...

average IQ officers saved innumerable lives by their daring actions....

... In a nutshell..... Whether it a natural disaster, enemy ground forces ingressing along thousands of kilometers of our borders, internal security,..... These average IQ officers are always found at the forefront.

I wonder what makes them do all this.

From
(AN EXTREMELY LOW IQ OFFICER)

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---. It is always the average Nazir Hussein or Abdullah or Ahmed Khan who makes it his duty to do the right and make the difference when he is needed the most---.

 

[PakFactor]

@PanzerKiel ,@ARMalik , @SQ8 , @blain2 , @PakFactor

Gentlemen I think the topic we have been discussing apart from CAS (R) Interview it requires more pondering, and I have decided to start a new thread analyzing the same perhaps in more detail. I'll tag you when I am ready and will be honored with your inputs. May be later we could request the mods to shift part of this thread to the new one, may be.

Sounds like a plan brother!

 

[ps3linux]

Sounds like a plan brother!

@PanzerKiel ,@ARMalik , @SQ8 , @blain2

Gentlemen suggestion needed where should I post the thread in the Army Section or the "Article Section"?
Appreciate your inputs.