Drone and missile debris proves Iranian role in Aramco attack, Saudi defense ministry says

[Bahram Esfandiari]

U r just inventing reasons and grasping at straws to try and back up ur argument. If we look at anything tangible...a nation's creation date is based on when it declared itself as that nation state...or u can trace the history of its civilization. Based on that the FACT remains...
- In terms of civilization we predate u
- In terms of an official declaration of a nation state we predate u

A name can be x, y, z, or anything...it DOESN'T sever historical ties. If Iran today named itself X...it wouldn't change ur historic civilization. If Britain changed its name today it wouldn't change their history.

This is what I get for trying to have a discussion with retarded Pakistanis with names like "Cookie monster" and that other clown "Batman"!!!

 

[Cookie Monster]

This is what I get for trying to have a discussion with retarded Pakistanis with names like "Cookie monster" and that other clown "Batman"!!!

U r an idiot. Using ur reasoning I can claim that u r not ur mother's son bcuz u have a different name than her.

Using that dumb reasoning is Macedonia(a country in Balkans with the majority of population being Slavs) now related to the ancient Greek Macedon(Alexander's kingdom)? Real tangible traces of a nation lay with its civilization or u can look at the creation date of that nation state itself.

 

[Sine Nomine]

This is what I get for trying to have a discussion with retarded Pakistanis with names like "Cookie monster" and that other clown "Batman"!!!

Being on a forum run by Pakistanis.

 

[Cookie Monster]

why go to air, we can launch hundreds of ballistic and cruise missiles in daily bases and we can use our drones to hit enemy air bases up to 3000 km away from our borders.

ur enemies also have air defense systems to intercept ur drones, ballistic missiles, and cruise missiles. Also as soon as they are alerted to an incoming attack(picking up incoming missiles on radar) they will scramble and get airborne. Nobody willingly allows their jets to get destroyed on the ground. It's not as easy as u make it seem like. If what u say worked in practice then countries around the world would've stopped investing billions in their air forces.

Now coming back to the importance of air force in modern combat...
If the enemy has air superiority over ur skies it will bring ur advances on the ground to a grinding halt. The ground forces will be sitting ducks at the mercy of the enemy and they can bomb entire convoys any time they please. In modern warfare if ur enemy established air superiority then sooner or later ur ground forces are bound to lose.

against US bight be but against PGCC our f-14 fleet is enough to keep balance with the help of our AD.

With an embargo from US, Iran has been struggling to keep it's F14's operational. They have been trying and have done a good job somehow still to manage and get by. But still it has taken it's toll...of the 79 F14's received in the 1970s...even in best case scenario I would expect about half to be operational.

Let's stack everything in favor of Iranian airforce and assume that all 40 F14 work perfectly and can be airborne carrying out sortie after sortie. Additionally F14 is probably the best fighter jet that Iran has...with the longest ranged radar as compared to other fighter jets in ur inventory and the longest ranged BVR AIM54(as compared to other BVRs in Iran's inventory). So that puts the number of ur best fighter aircraft at 40 in the best case scenario.

Now that we have considered the pros...let's look at some cons. F14 is a huge aircraft. It will stick out like a sore thumb in terms of its RCS on enemy AWACS. They can launch volleys of BVRs from their F15s...
In time as both sides suffer losses Iran will start to feel the attrition rate much sooner than GCC. Once these 40 F14s are done...the other fighter jets have lesser ranged radars...what then? They would pose a lesser threat. All the while Iran will still have an embargo and won't be able to turn to most nations that produce fighter jets to replenish numbers...while GCC nations would be able to. Iran would have to rely on producing its locally made Saeqeh and Kowsar. Again...these aircrafts would be at a disadvantage...in this day and age in aerial warfare u see first u shoot first.

After Iranian fighter jets get depleted in numbers it would be much easier for enemies to conduct SEAD/DEAD types of operations...which will over time neutralize a considerable portion of Iran's air defenses. According to estimates Iran's best air defense system is considered to be Bavar 373, which is considered analogous to S300 in terms of performance. Again stacking all the odds in Iran's favor...let's assume that Bavar 373 is as potent as S300...
even then...we know S300 can be defeated...Israel has reportedly been conducting strikes in Syria where Russia did deploy S300.

Air defense systems are very dangerous when operating under the cover of a potent air force...once the air force has been neutralized for the most part...it decreases the threat level of air defense systems considerably. U can increase their survivability by having mobile air defense systems...so it's harder for the enemy to predict where it might be...but still it's only a matter of time before they are taken out.

the fact that a Kuwaiti newspaper reported that while Israelis are jumping up of joy for bombing IRGC empty buildings in Syria should give you a hint.

It may be possible that the news of F35 entering Iranian airspace could be false if that what u r implying...

But the fact remains ur adversaries are operating considerably more advanced assets. Any sane person who is able to put nationalism aside would take that into account when calculating a threat assessment. Overestimating urself and underestimating the enemy is a recipe for disaster.

there was a time when Iran was saying we will fight a asymmetrical war with US people were saying they mean they will hide and ambush Americans lol. while you see what they meant. as you saw in mq-4 downing case.
in the official reports of US navy they said we didn't know there was a iranian air defense in that region, this brings the a question to mind: how they will conduct air raids if they do not know were are our ADs stationed??

Whoever was saying that regarding asymmetrical warfare is an idiot...thats not how asymmetrical warfare is fought.

As for shooting down the MQ4 drone and US not knowing there was an air defense system there...it's nothing unusual. Lapses in intelligence reports happen. U try ur best but u can't be all knowing. It can happen to any country and it would probably continue to happen...
...but make no mistake...shooting down a drone is easy especially while u r not engaged actively in a war.
Engaging fighter jets is a whole new ball game especially when u r involved in an active war. Ur enemy will try its best figuring out holes in ur air defense system and employ strategies such as flying around the area of radar coverage or using terrain to it's advantage. There will be jamming and possibly tactics like launching volleys of stand off munitions to overwhelm the air defense system.

 

[SOHEIL]

Analysis : What used to attack saudi oil facilities?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/analysis-what-used-to-attack-saudi-oil-facilities.636152/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/analysis-what-used-to-attack-saudi-oil-facilities.636152/

 

[skyshadow]

Yes u can do that...but if the enemy has air superiority over ur skies it will bring ur advances on the ground to a grinding halt. The ground forces will be sitting ducks at the mercy of the enemy and they can bomb entire convoys any time they please. If what u say worked in practice then countries around the world would've stopped investing billions in their air forces. In modern warfare if ur enemy established air superiority then sooner or later ur ground forces are bound to lose.

P.S. ur enemies also have air defense systems to intercept ur drones, ballistic missiles, and cruise missiles. Also as soon as they are alerted to an incoming attack(picking up incoming missiles on radar) they will scramble and get airborne. Nobody willingly allows their jets to get destroyed on the ground.

With an embargo from US, Iran has been struggling to keep it's F14's operational. They have been trying and have done a good job somehow still to manage and get by. But still it has taken it's toll...of the 79 F14's received in the 1970s...even in best case scenario I would expect about half to be operational.

Let's stack everything in favor of Iranian airforce and assume that all 40 F14 work perfectly and can be airborne carrying out sortie after sortie. Additionally F14 is probably the best fighter jet that Iran has...with the longest ranged radar as compared to other fighter jets in ur inventory and the longest ranged BVR AIM54(as compared to other BVRs in Iran's inventory). So that puts the number of ur best fighter aircraft at 40 in the best case scenario.

Now that we have considered the pros...let's look at some cons. F14 is a huge aircraft. It will stick out like a sore thumb in terms of its RCS on enemy AWACS. They can launch volleys of BVRs from their F15s...
In time as both sides suffer losses Iran will start to feel the attrition rate much sooner than GCC. Once these 40 F14s are done...the other fighter jets have lesser ranged radars...what then? They would pose a lesser threat. All the while Iran will still have an embargo and won't be able to turn to most nations that produce fighter jets to replenish numbers...while GCC nations would be able to. Iran would have to rely on producing it's locally made Saeqeh and Kowsar. Again...these aircrafts would be at a disadvantage...in this day and age in aerial warfare u see first u shoot first.

After Iranian fighter jets get depleted in numbers it would be much easier for enemies to conduct SEAD/DEAD types of operations...which will over time neutralize a considerable portion of Iran's air defenses. According to estimates Iran's best air defense system is considered to be Bavar 373, which is considered analogous to S300 in terms of performance. Again stacking all the odds in Iran's favor...let's assume that Bavar 373 is as potent as S300...
even then...we know S300 can be defeated...Israel has reportedly been conducting strikes in Syria where Russia did deploy S300.

Air defense systems are very dangerous when operating under the cover of a potent air force...once the air force has been neutralized for the most part...it decreases the threat level of air defense systems considerably. U can increase their survivability by having mobile air defense systems...so it's harder for the enemy to predict where it might be...but still it's only a matter of time before they are taken out.

It may be possible that the news of F35 entering Iranian airspace could be false if that what u r implying...

But the fact remains ur adversaries are operating considerably more advanced assets. Any sane person who is able to put nationalism aside would take that into account when calculating a threat assessment. Overestimating urself and underestimating the enemy is a recipe for disaster.

Whoever was saying that regarding asymmetrical warfare is an idiot...thats not how asymmetrical warfare is fought.

As for shooting down the MQ4 drone and US not knowing there was an air defense system there...it's nothing unusual. Lapses in intelligence reports happen. U try ur best but u can't be all knowing. It can happen to any country and it would probably continue to happen...
...but make no mistake...shooting down a drone is easy especially while u r not engaged actively in a war.
Engaging fighter jets is a whole new ball game especially when u r involved in an active war. Ur enemy will try its best figuring out holes in ur air defense system and employ strategies such as flying around the area of radar coverage or using terrain to it's advantage. There will be jamming and possibly tactics like launching volleys of stand off munitions to overwhelm the air defense system.

you can not plan a war with Iran just like that and get away with it you are not telling all of it like there Air defense will be destroyed easily and those F-15 must land somewhere to maintain and refuel so what happens when they are in there Air base and the last thing they see is this all the time day and night you talking about F-15 brother but there will not be a F-15 or a Air base to use them.

just look at one of our missile base it full of missile 500 meter deep in ground not even a nuclear bomb can penetrate that deep.


and remember that we are self sufficient in almost all of our needs which means when the enemy hit 1 on our Bavar-373 we will build 2 more to replace the one that was destroyed we have more than 17 layer of Air defenses the biggest in West Asia.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

For all the Persian mullah lovers and all those saying I-ran had nothing to do with these attacks . Especially for all those mullah loving Pakistani members .
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/anal...di-oil-facilities.636152/page-2#post-11779399

 

[Mithridates]

Also as soon as they are alerted to an incoming attack(picking up incoming missiles on radar) they will scramble and get airborne.

do you know it takes 7 minutes for a BM to reach it's max range?? also as i remember the planes need a runaway to become airborne.

If what u say worked in practice then countries around the world would've stopped investing billions in their air forces.

the people you are saying never used AF to attack an airbase, like how US took out Iraqi air bases with cruise missiles, or how NATO+US did against Syrian bases. like how Iran will.

With an embargo from US, Iran has been struggling to keep it's F14's operational. They have been trying and have done a good job somehow still to manage and get by. But still it has taken it's toll...of the 79 F14's received in the 1970s...even in best case scenario I would expect about half to be operational.

Let's stack everything in favor of Iranian airforce and assume that all 40 F14 work perfectly and can be airborne carrying out sortie after sortie. Additionally F14 is probably the best fighter jet that Iran has...with the longest ranged radar as compared to other fighter jets in ur inventory and the longest ranged BVR AIM54(as compared to other BVRs in Iran's inventory). So that puts the number of ur best fighter aircraft at 40 in the best case scenario.

the fleet is larger than that number.
no doubt that F-14 is the best 4th generation that ever west bade, both in dogfight and BWR.
Iran has no problem with spare parts as if had all the tomcats would become grounded during the war (F-14D which had better engine with better lifespan had 5000 hours service life).
phoenix and our fakour-90 missiles have longer range and NEZ compared all AIM-120 versions.

F14 is a huge aircraft. It will stick out like a sore thumb in terms of its RCS on enemy AWACS.

no problem F-14A and F-15C almost have the same RCS, while tomcat has better radar.

They can launch volleys of BVRs from their F15s...

tomcat can lock on eagles almost at 300 km for eagle the number is 240 km. AIM-120 range is 160 (which Saudis have B model with 110 km) AIM-54 range is 200 km and fakour-90 160 km. AMRAAM's speed is mach 4 phoenix and fakour speeds are mach 5. fakour and phoenix are top attack AMRAAM-D is top attack as i know and saudis again do not have that. NEZ for phoenix and fakour is 85 for amraam is 60 km. active radar range of fakour and phoenix is 50 km while amraam's is 24 km. this means tomcat detects first, locks first, launches first, the missile reaches faster than enemy missile, the active mode starts before even AIM-120 starts it's terminal phase so the tomcat can turn and comeback to his base.

All the while Iran will still have an embargo and won't be able to turn to most nations that produce fighter jets to replenish numbers

the embargo will remove next year.

Iran would have to rely on producing its locally made Saeqeh and Kowsar. Again...these aircrafts would be at a disadvantage...in this day and age in aerial warfare u see first u shoot first.

well I'm sure we do not rely on them but as you mentioned them i should add some too:
in DAC trainings in US, F-5 achieved 2.5 kills against F-15 and 2 kills against F-14 while loosing 1 for each.
kowsar radar has 110 km range in look up detection mode. also recently a USAF T-38 talon locked 3 times of F-22:

View this content on Instagram

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i wouldn't underestimate tiger.

After Iranian fighter jets get depleted in numbers it would be much easier for enemies to conduct SEAD/DEAD types of operations

how they will counter this??

they do not emit any radiation until the long range radars like this command them to do like this:

this radar has 3000 km range, it can detect anything from India to Mediterranean sea.
this means this radars are the primary targets, but to counter these radars enemy planes should get close to them at least 180 km to target them, in the mean time this will see them and command one of those above mentioned TELs to go active and target it. it means close to invincible air defense because the TELs are never active and always are on the run.
the other systems like bavar and S-300 have longer range compared to the anti radiation missiles of Saudis.

et's assume that Bavar 373 is as potent as S300...

LOL no thanks we don't need your favor to consider bavar as capable as S-300, bavar can engage ballistic missiles at 60 kilo meters altitude and unlike S-300 and patriot it uses 3 AESA radars to search, detection, tracking and engagements. also it's able to engage with 54 targets simultaneously and launch 2 missiles at each target.
duo to bi static configurations it's able to engage with stealth planes.

Israel has reportedly been conducting strikes in Syria where Russia did deploy S300.

Syrians once mistakenly targeted a Russian cargo plane over Mediterranean sea, from that day Russians are operating their S-300 and they do not want to make political issues with Israelis, also from the day that Syrians downed Israeli f-16 they do not enter Syrian airspace they launch their attacks from sea or over Lebanon.
if they were able to penetrate Syrian airspace they wouldn't make rampage missile.

But the fact remains ur adversaries are operating considerably more advanced assets. Any sane person who is able to put nationalism aside would take that into account when calculating a threat assessment. Overestimating urself and underestimating the enemy is a recipe for disaster.

the whole things i wrote in the upper lines indicates that actually there is no problem with our equipment quality also indicates that some people without looking at the specs of a weapon judge it's quality by where it originates and surprisingly deny that it achieved success in real life against advanced equipment, our air defense downed US mq-4 that had jammer, chaff and towed decoys. our cruise missiles and drones targeted a facility deep inside a country without the patriots noticing them, our ballistic missiles targeted a house 700 km away from our border with precision but still we hear this kind of talks that you are inferior.

 

[Bahram Esfandiari]

Being on a forum run by Pakistanis.

I never said all Pakistanis.

 

[Cookie Monster]

do you know it takes 7 minutes for a BM to reach it's max range?? also as i remember the planes need a runaway to become airborne.

the people you are saying never used AF to attack an airbase, like how US took out Iraqi air bases with cruise missiles, or how NATO+US did against Syrian bases. like how Iran will.

the fleet is larger than that number.
no doubt that F-14 is the best 4th generation that ever west bade, both in dogfight and BWR.
Iran has no problem with spare parts as if had all the tomcats would become grounded during the war (F-14D which had better engine with better lifespan had 5000 hours service life).
phoenix and our fakour-90 missiles have longer range and NEZ compared all AIM-120 versions.

no problem F-14A and F-15C almost have the same RCS, while tomcat has better radar.

tomcat can lock on eagles almost at 300 km for eagle the number is 240 km. AIM-120 range is 160 (which Saudis have B model with 110 km) AIM-54 range is 200 km and fakour-90 160 km. AMRAAM's speed is mach 4 phoenix and fakour speeds are mach 5. fakour and phoenix are top attack AMRAAM-D is top attack as i know and saudis again do not have that. NEZ for phoenix and fakour is 85 for amraam is 60 km. active radar range of fakour and phoenix is 50 km while amraam's is 24 km. this means tomcat detects first, locks first, launches first, the missile reaches faster than enemy missile, the active mode starts before even AIM-120 starts it's terminal phase so the tomcat can turn and comeback to his base.

the embargo will remove next year.

well I'm sure we do not rely on them but as you mentioned them i should add some too:
in DAC trainings in US, F-5 achieved 2.5 kills against F-15 and 2 kills against F-14 while loosing 1 for each.
kowsar radar has 110 km range in look up detection mode. also recently a USAF T-38 talon locked 3 times of F-22:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

i wouldn't underestimate tiger.

how they will counter this??
View attachment 580225
they do not emit any radiation until the long range radars like this command them to do like this:
View attachment 580226

this radar has 3000 km range, it can detect anything from India to Mediterranean sea.
this means this radars are the primary targets, but to counter these radars enemy planes should get close to them at least 180 km to target them, in the mean time this will see them and command one of those above mentioned TELs to go active and target it. it means close to invincible air defense because the TELs are never active and always are on the run.
the other systems like bavar and S-300 have longer range compared to the anti radiation missiles of Saudis.

LOL no thanks we don't need your favor to consider bavar as capable as S-300, bavar can engage ballistic missiles at 60 kilo meters altitude and unlike S-300 and patriot it uses 3 AESA radars to search, detection, tracking and engagements. also it's able to engage with 54 targets simultaneously and launch 2 missiles at each target.
duo to bi static configurations it's able to engage with stealth planes.

Syrians once mistakenly targeted a Russian cargo plane over Mediterranean sea, from that day Russians are operating their S-300 and they do not want to make political issues with Israelis, also from the day that Syrians downed Israeli f-16 they do not enter Syrian airspace they launch their attacks from sea or over Lebanon.
if they were able to penetrate Syrian airspace they wouldn't make rampage missile.

the whole things i wrote in the upper lines indicates that actually there is no problem with our equipment quality also indicates that some people without looking at the specs of a weapon judge it's quality by where it originates and surprisingly deny that it achieved success in real life against advanced equipment, our air defense downed US mq-4 that had jammer, chaff and towed decoys. our cruise missiles and drones targeted a facility deep inside a country without the patriots noticing them, our ballistic missiles targeted a house 700 km away from our border with precision but still we hear this kind of talks that you are inferior.

It is not about "inferior"...it's about "questionable"
This applies to ANY equipment that is not battle tested no matter its origin. The Chinese faced that same thing where their equipment was considered questionable until they established themselves. The reason why the capabilities of systems from US, Britain, France, Germany, etc. are trusted is bcuz they have been in this field for a long time...they established the reliability and quality of their products over time. Iranian stuff isn't exported around the world...it's not used that often in the battlefield...or if it is...then it's mostly Iranians who get to use it so it's hard to account for bias.

Anyways...I can see u r very emotionally driven as evident by ur cheaps shots against me so there's no point in carrying on this discussion. U can continue to believe in ur supremacy.

Being on a forum run by Pakistanis.

He is just resorting to cheap insults bcuz he got schooled.

 

[Bahram Esfandiari]

It is not about "inferior"...it's about "questionable"
This applies to ANY equipment that is not battle tested no matter its origin. The Chinese faced that same thing where their equipment was considered questionable until they established themselves. The reason why the capabilities of systems from US, Britain, France, Germany, etc. are trusted is bcuz they have been in this field for a long time...they established the reliability and quality of their products over time. Iranian stuff isn't exported around the world...it's not used that often in the battlefield...or if it is...then it's mostly Iranians who get to use it so it's hard to account for bias.

Anyways...I can see u r very emotionally driven as evident by ur cheaps shots against me so there's no point in carrying on this discussion. U can continue to believe in ur supremacy.


He is just resorting to cheap insults bcuz he got schooled.

You didn't "school" anyone with your joke about Pakistan nation state predating Iran! Go back to Sasemistreet!

 

[RoadRunner401]

@MUSTAKSHAF
@Rusty
@RoadRunner401
@CHACHA"G"

Kindly don't fight among yourself, on Iran and Arab conflict, which has its basis in an undesirable mixture of sectarianism, ethnicity and delusions of supremacy.

To me this is about self respect. Show me One Arab country where the citizen is asking their government to attack India for Pakistan. Arabs are openly making a statement in favor of India against Pakistan and here we have cave duelers asking Pakistan to attack other sovereign nations to protect Arabs, WTF, Arab worshiping is being classified as patriotism..Or being pro Arab makes you a better Muslim.

The Prophet Muhammad, Allah's Blessings and Peace be upon him, said:

"There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety."

 

[Cookie Monster]

You didn't "school" anyone with your joke about Pakistan nation state predating Iran! Go back to Sasemistreet!

I can tell by ur lack of a solid argument in ur replies...and u resorting to cheap insults one after another. It shows ur frustration...it shows ur upbringing and lack of manners.

 

[Black Stone]

US forces can defeat Iran conventionally but at what cost?

The Iranian members here would disagree with you, they think Iran would defeat the great satan.

There will be a bloody nose for the US, but Iranian forces will be destroyed.

US is great friend of Iran.

Yes we are indeed

 

[zartosht]

The Iranian members here would disagree with you, they think Iran would defeat the great satan.

There will be a bloody nose for the US, but Iranian forces will be destroyed.

it depends on your definition of "defeat"

if defeat means conquering Washington DC and planting the Iranian flag on the white house.. then I agree with you, its not possible...

but if defeat means slaughtering every single American soldier, ship, base and asset that's a threat to Iran... then yes, we will defeat you.. not a single American rat will get out alive if they step onto Iranian soil. I will guarantee you this.