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Def.pk op-ed: Mutual Blackmail, ETO for Afg, Pak and Ind

More assertive governments in India and China are definitely going to happen shortly.

The next generation leadership in India across the political spectrum is more assertive and less constrained by the factors that constrained the almost senile leadership that we have now and that is incapable of taking bold decisions for the most part.

There is a good chance that the next decade in Indo-Pak relations may be better than any we have had so far as new and hopefully more pragmatic and hard nosed leadership takes over.

That is a worry in some sense. All the economic cooperation between India/Pakistan will go down the drain if there is any terrorist incident. The situation will be manageable only if there is mutual trust both at the official and popular levels that the terrorists have no official backing.

The Indians will need to be convinced that the Pakistani establishment has taken sufficient steps to control extremists groups, and the Pakistani side will need to be convinced that India is not supporting activities in Baluchistan and elsewhere. This almost seems to be a prerequisite before any meaningful and sustainable relationship can progress.
 
How do you figure that, given the direction of US-Pak relations under an 'assertive US leadership'?

India Pak doesn't have to be the same as US-Pak or US-India.

A "hopefully more pragmatic and hard nosed leadership" on both sides will likely realize what has not worked for several decades, see if more of the same has a chance of working in the future and change course if the answer is in the negative.

Under Musharraf (of all people, architect of kargil, hardliner on India, SSG commando and all), the relations were the best in decades. That points to the possibilities.

Our issues are not as intractable as they seem at the surface. Nothing compared to the millions and millions killed by the French and Germans and other Europeans.

The template is there before us.
 
So what do you think those Chinese interests are, and how would they be affected by the ECO proposed above, if at all?

For starters the Chinese do have an ambition of finding trade route through Pakistan to Central Asia. Its another thing they haven't decided solidly on this, as WOT is the obvious reason. What will happen if the Chinese think that Pakistan is slipping back in to US's lap and with India too?? As much as we talk of USA's influence on Pakistan, the Chinese do have very deep relations with Pakistan (always had from around 1962 i guess) and i don't think Pakistan would want to antagonize them do they?? By this i don't mean that USA will not let the Chinese use this route but it will have more influence there and if the Chinese think they can undermine right at the inception why would they keep silent about it??

Secondly would the Chinese be happy with America entrenching themselves deeply in Asia right at the doorstep. The ensuing comments by posters have brought up the situation where, once these three states become "sufficiently" interdependent,the need for USA to play the Uncle wouldn't be needed. I don't think that once u bring in the heavy weight, he will ever quit!!!!!!!

The Chinese can't be counted out.
 
from: Mutual Blackmail: Economic Treaty Organization Between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India | Pakistan Defence


Mutual Blackmail: Economic Treaty Organization Between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India
By VCheng

The US should create and fund an Economic Treaty Organization between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India that will create all the elements of mutual blackmail by tying together long term economic interests of all the parties involved, thus in time elevating it to the higher level of friendship, as already stated above. The return on investment of such a plan is going to be far higher than cleaning up the mess afterwards, and anything less would fail to the detriment of all. After having exhausted all other possibilities, it is high time the Americans did the right thing. Countless millions are counting on it.




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Let the discussion begin (on topic, and politely please)! :D



I have posted a number of posts on this thread regarding this matter. Having slept on it I would comment as follows:

This is the most ridiculous and preposterous proposal I have ever come across. Our discussion here reminds me of the story I was told as a child that the Emperor has no clothes. Most frequently, this metaphor involves a situation wherein the overwhelming majority of observers willingly share in a collective ignorance of an obvious fact, despite individually recognising the absurdity

I think its twaddle under the cloak of intellectual discussion. Any proponent of this deal is a supporter of american interests not pakistan nor the neighbourhood.

This is how I see the actors:

India- Likes the deal. But does not have a border with Afghanistan. Is not prepared to give Pakistan its pound of flesh-a deal on Kashmir nor is India at the moment prepared to throw its lot completely in with the Americans.

Afghanistan-they have no voice other than a puppet voice who represent America- likes the deal

Pakistan- Nothing in it for Pakistan but are being maligned by Americans for not falling in line. Note the non stop propaganda from America and its allies. Any deal must take into account its sensitivities because of its strategic location.

Iran-Never mind nothing in it for Iran there sensitivities are being excluded altogether. On the contrary one of the actors America threatens Iran

Both Pakistan & Iran have religious affiliations, long borders with Afghanistan and have always had no choice but to be involved and are affected by Afghanis. No Indian or American can wish this fact away. No deal can be done without the active participation of these two parties. In fact on the contrary deals can be done without America and India but not without Iran/Pakistan.

China-Probably not too happy because seems to give India a lead. Not only that the suggestion is that America will fund this. How are Americans going to fund this by borrowing money from China? lol

Americans- suits them, but they are interlopers from thousands of miles who have failed to stabalise Afghanistan. I may agree with you if you were to say the Taliban are not the most tasteful dish but how has the last 10 years of American interference in Afghanistan improved things? We get daily reports of deaths, collateral damage etc. American govt has made clear that they have no choice but to pull out entirely or reduce troops at the very least.

America must learn the lesson that you need to win hearts and minds. Take all the regional parties in to confidence if they are sincere. No deal that is forced is durable. But then Americans are not known to be sincere. I think it’s a bit late anyway because America and India are already implementing this deal and hope that they between them can cajole bully threaten bribe the other actors into compliance. In my opinion they have failed before they have started.

I will now get back to helping mods by becoming a troll lol
 
Please don't help the mods. Don't be a troll. We got enough of them. Stick to posts like this. Suits you and suits the site. :azn:
 
Seems like Afghanistan is a piece of cake and india, pak, russia, iran all waiting/fighting for their share from American left out.
 
I have posted a number of posts on this thread regarding this matter. Having slept on it I would comment as follows:

This is the most ridiculous and preposterous proposal I have ever come across. Our discussion here reminds me of the story I was told as a child that the Emperor has no clothes. Most frequently, this metaphor involves a situation wherein the overwhelming majority of observers willingly share in a collective ignorance of an obvious fact, despite individually recognising the absurdity

I think its twaddle under the cloak of intellectual discussion. Any proponent of this deal is a supporter of american interests not pakistan nor the neighbourhood.

......................

You are entitled to your views, which seem to be clouded greatly by anti-Americanism more than anything else (in my opinion!). :D
 
You are entitled to your views, which seem to be clouded greatly by anti-Americanism more than anything else (in my opinion!). :D

So Cheng tell me are Americans sincere? Have they been sincere in dealings with India? Iran? Pakistan? China? Afghanistan? I know past actions are no guarantee of future but they are a good guide.

Does America want the best for non white people living in Pakistan and the neighbourhood?

Cheng your answers to these questions will show me how sincere you are to Pakistan and the neighbourhood. After all I have said on this forum for you to come here and for you to question my integrity saddens me. But I am a big boy lol.

You cannot simply dismiss my assertions as I am anti American. American actions speak louder than my words or your words. My submissions have been based on America’s actions not this woolly notion that I am anti American or you are pro American.
 
Muse,

This is how I see the problem:

The need to create an economic zone, that shall force us (all the parties) into mutual and sustainable growth, is urgent. It is urgent because the central country, Afghanistan, is not independent in true sense. It cannot decide on its own and keep undesirable intruders out, simply because it is not a functioning nation. Because of this condition of Afghanistan, it remains very vulnerable to any sort of take over, for example the Taliban in earlier times, the US now, and who knows who comes later. The economic zone involving all the parties will have to be created much sooner to avoid any such take overs in the future, because once a take over is done, and any single country gets hold of Afghanistan, the olive carrying dove will be shot down in a minute.

Having said that, I feel the need to clear a couple of points for all the members here.

1. The impasse we are experiencing in the relationship between all the countries in the region can be simply attributed to the lack of consensus among all the countries. There is no way to reach such a consensus, unless forced upon by another party that all the countries in the region depend on.

In this case, the US can play a part to force such a consensus, and of course the degree of involvement of the US in the region will be defined by the countries in the region. We can be very sure of a lower degree of US participation in such mutually beneficial trade because no country in the region is a big fan of the US. And India certainly is among the very wary ones when it comes to US 'hegemony'.

At the same time, the US too would want something out of such a scenario for itself. It can be more than satisfied by feeding the oil through Arabian Ocean, but only under the secured supervision of Indian Navy, and no presence of any American boats (military/navy ones).

The land trade, and the trade route will depend a lot on the purchasing capacity of the nations involved. While Pakistan does have a strong market, I am skeptical of the Central Asian Nations (except, of course, their being the source of energy). May be with time such a route can be further extended to Europe. But that's just a bit too far fetched an idea for now.

2. If the US were to be thrown out of the region, then the impasse will continue. Truth is, India shares no border with Afghanistan, yet strongly desires its presence and influence in that country. With Afghanistan in its backyard, Pakistan - an enemy nation of India, will never allow India's presence (for valid or invalid reasons, that is a different question).

With the ever changing sociopolitical environment in Pakistan, where people are used as more of an instrument by the ruling parties, we can never be sure of what may become of Afghanistan. Secondly, even if some sort of India's civilian presence in Afghanistan is tolerated by Pakistan, it will still make the trade route to CANs much more taxing than desirable (for some strong reasons that can be discussed later). However, Pakistan all by itself will not have a lot to offer the CANs if any sort of trade route were created and practiced upon.

Now coming down to the major reason why it will not be easy to formulate the US's role in the region. The US would indeed want to create problems in Iran. Even bigger ones, if the US gets to create strong bases in Afghanistan. That will not be acceptable for the reason that Iran too may want to play its part in the route and trade that follows. However, judging by the recent behavior of Iran, it will be extremely difficult to keep even the minimal presence of the US in the region, and when it happens with Pakistan's nod, there will be even newer problems.

In conclusion, I see the presence of the US (which will have to be offered something of great value, since its economic conditions in present times may not allow for a longer presence) undermined by only one country - Iran. At the same time, we should also keep in mind that Iran can easily use the Caspian to have its own trade route bypassing Afghanistan completely. Besides, Iran does not have much to offer to the CANs than it does for other far away oil starved nations.

Thus, if we all were to create an economical balance amongst us, all the while when we cannot look away from our differences, then we will need the presence of a powerful middleman that happens to be Uncle Sam at the moment - Simply because we are already deep in "mutual blackmail" with that middleman.

Without any such powerful middleman, India cannot even step inside Afghanistan to offset the presence of Pakistan, and it will be a repetition of '94-2001 Afghanistan.
 
So Cheng tell me are Americans sincere? Have they been sincere in dealings with India? Iran? Pakistan? China? Afghanistan? I know past actions are no guarantee of future but they are a good guide.

Does America want the best for non white people living in Pakistan and the neighbourhood?

Cheng your answers to these questions will show me how sincere you are to Pakistan and the neighbourhood. After all I have said on this forum for you to come here and for you to question my integrity saddens me. But I am a big boy lol.

You cannot simply dismiss my assertions as I am anti American. American actions speak louder than my words or your words. My submissions have been based on America’s actions not this woolly notion that I am anti American or you are pro American.

I am not questioning your integrity, just the validity of your opinion, that is all. :D

I will repeat what I have said many times before: Concepts like "sincerity" and "friendship" and "morality" simply do not apply to international geopolitics. We need to understand this clearly so that we can learn to play the game as it is being played.
 
...............................

Thus, if we all were to create an economical balance amongst us, all the while when we cannot look away from our differences, then we will need the presence of a powerful middleman that happens to be Uncle Sam at the moment - Simply because we are already deep in "mutual blackmail" with that middleman.

....................

Thank you for a thought-provoking post. My article was intended to initiate discussing such ideas precisely.
 
Muse,


Without any such powerful middleman, India cannot even step inside Afghanistan to offset the presence of Pakistan, and it will be a repetition of '94-2001 Afghanistan.

Alternativly India and Pakistan could sit together more seriously and settle our borders as the stakes are so high.
 
Alternativly India and Pakistan could sit together more seriously and settle our borders as the stakes are so high.

But both sides have to be suitable and sufficiently motivated to sort these differences out, and economic motivators are the most powerful of all internationally; hence my point in the Op-Ed piece.
 
I am not questioning your integrity, just the validity of your opinion, that is all. :D



I will repeat what I have said many times before: Concepts like "sincerity" and "friendship" and "morality" simply do not apply to international geopolitics. We need to understand this clearly so that we can learn to play the game as it is being played.

You were not talking about international geopolitics when you questioned me you said these views of mine were cos I am anti american. Have the courage of your convictions and answer my questions that I addressed to you.
 
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