Def.pk op-ed: Mutual Blackmail, ETO for Afg, Pak and Ind
- Thread starter VCheng
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Default Re: Def.pk op-ed: Mutual Blackmail, ETO for Afg, Pak and Ind
...........................
So, basically, we have the incompetent traitor paindoos shirking responsibility, passing the buck and looking for short-term patches. India may well get its way with these clowns "leading" the country,
Original Post By Developereo
More from the "clowns":
Cabinet approves MFN status for India
Cabinet has approved to give Most Favoured Nation status to India on Wednesday.
The cabinet meeting chaired by Prime Minster Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani was held in Islamabad in which India was given the status of Most favoured Nation.
Federal cabinet also agreed to boost the volume of trade with India and to fully implement all the trade agreements inked between Pakistan and India.
Dunya News: Pakistan:-Cabinet approves MFN status for India...
---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------
Congrats to all Indian and Pakistanis, that were in favor of trade. A great news indeed.
---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------
Pakistan grants India MFN status
Pakistan grants India MFN status - NDTV Profit
Original Post By Varad
Not so fast Mr Cheng::Told you you so :
http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...anted-mfn-status-says-gilani.html#post2256791
...........................
So, basically, we have the incompetent traitor paindoos shirking responsibility, passing the buck and looking for short-term patches. India may well get its way with these clowns "leading" the country,
Original Post By Developereo
More from the "clowns":
Cabinet approves MFN status for India
Cabinet has approved to give Most Favoured Nation status to India on Wednesday.
The cabinet meeting chaired by Prime Minster Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani was held in Islamabad in which India was given the status of Most favoured Nation.
Federal cabinet also agreed to boost the volume of trade with India and to fully implement all the trade agreements inked between Pakistan and India.
Dunya News: Pakistan:-Cabinet approves MFN status for India...
---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------
Congrats to all Indian and Pakistanis, that were in favor of trade. A great news indeed.
---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------
Pakistan grants India MFN status
Pakistan grants India MFN status - NDTV Profit
Original Post By Varad
Not so fast Mr Cheng::Told you you so :
http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...anted-mfn-status-says-gilani.html#post2256791
VCheng
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Yes well I factored all this when I was putting my posts up. Clearly you didnt quite take in all the variables .lol
VCheng
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Yes well I factored all this when I was putting my posts up. Clearly you didnt quite take in all the variables .lol
Well, I did take that into account; the Army will be made to see the error of its ways in due course. Mark my words.
President Camacho
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Gen. Kayani's Silent coup
Feroz Khan is a Toronto based political analyst with interests in military history and issues of conflict management and conflict resolution. Khan has contributed this exclusive piece for PTH which we are posting here. We should clarify that the views expressed are those of the author and PTH does not subscribe to them. However, this piece raises pertinent issues for a debate. Therefore, we are publishing it without prejudice to anyone.
The pointing finger points to the silence of the Pakistani army towards the murders of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti. Has no one wondered why the security establishment has been so silent on the issue? Can no one hear the loudness of this silence? When something is too obvious, it is not really obvious and when all other possibilities are eliminated, what is left no matter how improbable is always the truth.
There are serious things presently afoot in Pakistan and the events clearly hint of a massive imbalancing of the scales of political power in Pakistan. There is a silent coup d’ etat underway in Pakistan and Pakistan, as a state, is quickly becoming a state of martial law. Two events, isolated yet connected, have changed the nature of power in Pakistan and those two events were the extensions given to General Kayani as the Chief of Army Staff and to General Pasha as the head of Inter-Services-Intelligence (ISI).
What these extensions imply is that the Pakistani military and the Pakistani military intelligence (ISI) have institutionally merged and the idea of a political power, which was always considered to rest with the chief of the army staff, will now be equally shared between the chief of the army staff and the director-general of the ISI.
This means that the pantomime of a civilian democracy in Pakistan has become irrelevant and the civilian government has become a bonsai government and the Pakistani army, sub voce, has become an autonomous center of power in Pakistan accountable to no one but its own ideological worldview and its own metrics of interest in the Pakistani political system. It also means that interregnum of democracy in Pakistani politics, which started in 2008, may be coming to an end.
In a sense, both Generals Kayani and Pasha had held important positions during General Musharraf’s military rule and with both having secure extensions to their tenures, it can be safely said that Pakistan has reverted to the status quo of February 2008; a state of political reality which had existed in Pakistan before the elections of February 2008.
Also, the military rule that started in 1999, with a lapse of three years from 2008-2011, has been reestablished. It means that the policies of the Musharraf era vis-a-vis Afghanistan, India and towards the United States will be followed faithfully by the dyarchy of Kayani and Pasha. This means that with the end game in Afghanistan fast approaching its point of eventual terminality, there will be resurgence in the Pakistani Army-ISI’s support of jihadi organizations and groups as possible strategic assets to secure its interests in a post-Americanized Afghanistan.
This also means that the military-mullah alliance had to be re -calibrated in view of these newly emerging realities and obstacles to that alliance had to be removed. The murders of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti and the silencing of all liberal dissent against the spread of an intolerant religious ideology have to been seen and understood in the light of this shared consensus between the Pakistani military, ISI and the religious groups in Pakistan. (If we notice, such frequent instances of silencing the liberal voices are reflective of the Zia era)
The Pakistani media’s role is, and has been, the vocalization of this agreement and to facilitate this aim by creating a climate of fear, hostility and insecurity in which no voice can be raised against this development; the cementing of the Pakistani military’s ideological and political view point onto the politics of Pakistan.
This coup d’ etat, by the Pakistani military, is different from the past coups in Pakistani history. Unlike the past coups, this time the military has no wish to share power with the civilian politicians and unlike the past (why, of course, the one termed head of the state will be blamed for all the ills, further empowering the ill doers), where it covertly supported the religious parties; it is now overtly supporting the religious parties’ attempts to influence political power by its silence and refusal to condemn their acts of terror and violence in Pakistan.
The glue, which is binding and reinforcing this alliance is the fact that both the military and the religious groups in Pakistan see eye to eye and agree on the key issues of foreign policy, domestic politics, ideological moorings of Pakistan and on their political perceptions on what is the right course of action in Pakistani politics: the move towards an ideologically conservative society, which protects the traditional roles of the military and the religious groups as the defenders of Pakistan’s ideological, geographic and moral frontiers.
It is in this vortex that the story of Raymond Davis starts to make sense and it is this logic which explains the outbreak of the intelligence war between ISI and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Once the CIA realized that it could not count on ISI to tackle the problem of jihadi organizations acting against the United States interests, it decided to act unilaterally to deal with the problem and this act of independence by CIA threatened ISI, and Pakistani military’s strategic calculations towards the region (read post- United States’ influenced Afghanistan).
Therefore, CIA and its unilateral policies in Pakistan had to be stopped at all costs and it is within this prism that the murders of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti also make sense. If the politics of Taseer and Bhatti had been allowed to be successful, and the repeals to the Blasphemy Laws had, indeed, been affected, it would have immeasurably strengthened the cause of liberal-secular politics in Pakistan and would have caused untold harm to the military-mullah alliance itself. Both Samaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti were seen as a threat not because they had the political constituencies of support behind them, but because they had the potential to galvanize such a constituency not only within Pakistan, but also internationally and that would have undermined the military’s traditional importance to the United States as the sole interlocutor for the United States’ interests in Pakistani politics.
Frederick the Great of Prussia had once remarked “audace, tojour, audace” on the eve of a battle to his generals telling them that it was audacity, which won battles and not courage. The first rule of a successful coup is not to be losing side and the second rule is to do everything possible to make sure that one comes out on the winning side and this is exactly what has happened in Pakistan.
Faced with the prospect of a defeat and the lessening of its role in Pakistani politics and internationally, the Pakistani military mounted a desperate coup d’etat inside Pakistan to secure its long term interests and the first shots of this coup, which were heard all over the world were fired on January 4th 2011 and since then, Pakistan has become a different country and because of this, may be, the world has also changed.
Pakistan Tea House
Feroz Khan is a Toronto based political analyst with interests in military history and issues of conflict management and conflict resolution. Khan has contributed this exclusive piece for PTH which we are posting here. We should clarify that the views expressed are those of the author and PTH does not subscribe to them. However, this piece raises pertinent issues for a debate. Therefore, we are publishing it without prejudice to anyone.
The pointing finger points to the silence of the Pakistani army towards the murders of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti. Has no one wondered why the security establishment has been so silent on the issue? Can no one hear the loudness of this silence? When something is too obvious, it is not really obvious and when all other possibilities are eliminated, what is left no matter how improbable is always the truth.
There are serious things presently afoot in Pakistan and the events clearly hint of a massive imbalancing of the scales of political power in Pakistan. There is a silent coup d’ etat underway in Pakistan and Pakistan, as a state, is quickly becoming a state of martial law. Two events, isolated yet connected, have changed the nature of power in Pakistan and those two events were the extensions given to General Kayani as the Chief of Army Staff and to General Pasha as the head of Inter-Services-Intelligence (ISI).
What these extensions imply is that the Pakistani military and the Pakistani military intelligence (ISI) have institutionally merged and the idea of a political power, which was always considered to rest with the chief of the army staff, will now be equally shared between the chief of the army staff and the director-general of the ISI.
This means that the pantomime of a civilian democracy in Pakistan has become irrelevant and the civilian government has become a bonsai government and the Pakistani army, sub voce, has become an autonomous center of power in Pakistan accountable to no one but its own ideological worldview and its own metrics of interest in the Pakistani political system. It also means that interregnum of democracy in Pakistani politics, which started in 2008, may be coming to an end.
In a sense, both Generals Kayani and Pasha had held important positions during General Musharraf’s military rule and with both having secure extensions to their tenures, it can be safely said that Pakistan has reverted to the status quo of February 2008; a state of political reality which had existed in Pakistan before the elections of February 2008.
Also, the military rule that started in 1999, with a lapse of three years from 2008-2011, has been reestablished. It means that the policies of the Musharraf era vis-a-vis Afghanistan, India and towards the United States will be followed faithfully by the dyarchy of Kayani and Pasha. This means that with the end game in Afghanistan fast approaching its point of eventual terminality, there will be resurgence in the Pakistani Army-ISI’s support of jihadi organizations and groups as possible strategic assets to secure its interests in a post-Americanized Afghanistan.
This also means that the military-mullah alliance had to be re -calibrated in view of these newly emerging realities and obstacles to that alliance had to be removed. The murders of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti and the silencing of all liberal dissent against the spread of an intolerant religious ideology have to been seen and understood in the light of this shared consensus between the Pakistani military, ISI and the religious groups in Pakistan. (If we notice, such frequent instances of silencing the liberal voices are reflective of the Zia era)
The Pakistani media’s role is, and has been, the vocalization of this agreement and to facilitate this aim by creating a climate of fear, hostility and insecurity in which no voice can be raised against this development; the cementing of the Pakistani military’s ideological and political view point onto the politics of Pakistan.
This coup d’ etat, by the Pakistani military, is different from the past coups in Pakistani history. Unlike the past coups, this time the military has no wish to share power with the civilian politicians and unlike the past (why, of course, the one termed head of the state will be blamed for all the ills, further empowering the ill doers), where it covertly supported the religious parties; it is now overtly supporting the religious parties’ attempts to influence political power by its silence and refusal to condemn their acts of terror and violence in Pakistan.
The glue, which is binding and reinforcing this alliance is the fact that both the military and the religious groups in Pakistan see eye to eye and agree on the key issues of foreign policy, domestic politics, ideological moorings of Pakistan and on their political perceptions on what is the right course of action in Pakistani politics: the move towards an ideologically conservative society, which protects the traditional roles of the military and the religious groups as the defenders of Pakistan’s ideological, geographic and moral frontiers.
It is in this vortex that the story of Raymond Davis starts to make sense and it is this logic which explains the outbreak of the intelligence war between ISI and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Once the CIA realized that it could not count on ISI to tackle the problem of jihadi organizations acting against the United States interests, it decided to act unilaterally to deal with the problem and this act of independence by CIA threatened ISI, and Pakistani military’s strategic calculations towards the region (read post- United States’ influenced Afghanistan).
Therefore, CIA and its unilateral policies in Pakistan had to be stopped at all costs and it is within this prism that the murders of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti also make sense. If the politics of Taseer and Bhatti had been allowed to be successful, and the repeals to the Blasphemy Laws had, indeed, been affected, it would have immeasurably strengthened the cause of liberal-secular politics in Pakistan and would have caused untold harm to the military-mullah alliance itself. Both Samaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti were seen as a threat not because they had the political constituencies of support behind them, but because they had the potential to galvanize such a constituency not only within Pakistan, but also internationally and that would have undermined the military’s traditional importance to the United States as the sole interlocutor for the United States’ interests in Pakistani politics.
Frederick the Great of Prussia had once remarked “audace, tojour, audace” on the eve of a battle to his generals telling them that it was audacity, which won battles and not courage. The first rule of a successful coup is not to be losing side and the second rule is to do everything possible to make sure that one comes out on the winning side and this is exactly what has happened in Pakistan.
Faced with the prospect of a defeat and the lessening of its role in Pakistani politics and internationally, the Pakistani military mounted a desperate coup d’etat inside Pakistan to secure its long term interests and the first shots of this coup, which were heard all over the world were fired on January 4th 2011 and since then, Pakistan has become a different country and because of this, may be, the world has also changed.
Pakistan Tea House
Mark your words when earlier you have stated that you are often wrong. I do not think so mate
Therein lies the difference between Pakistanis like you and me. I understand and am fully aware that India and America have a common interest in emasculating Pakistan's army. It amazes me that a small minority of educated people like you want the same for PA. I must point out that being educated does not mean necessarily that this group have a high IQ or are geniuses.
It was all very well for you in your OP to expose what American & Indian aims and desires are. It’s all a different matter that you are a Pakistani and yet try to act as advocate for American and Indian desires and you try to pass this off as patriotic desire to make Pakistan better off.
You would choose to play the democracy card and say that its political leaders that should make the decisions common interests in containing China and emasculating Pakistan's army and claim the high moral ground. That’s all very well if we lived in a true utopia of democracy but the real facts on the ground are anything but that. Let’s take the current political party PPP. It has thrown up a President Zardari. It is doubtful he could have ever got elected had we had direct elections for the post of President. He is a thief. It was a party that was left in BBs will as a possession to her son. Proper political parties are not the property of someone that can be left in a will. Slaves on the other hand can be considered as property and therefore logic would dictate can be left in a will. Pakistani political parties do not have internal elections there raison d’être seems to be the promotion of a family. We have no real democracy PPP barely got million votes out of 180 million electorate.
It is well accepted that despite considerable propaganda from abroad and from people who have American and Indian interests at heart against PA and despite PA shortcomings the majority of our people including me love and respect them.
It is easier for my son and any Pakistani to come of age and if they are clever enough pass the appropriate exams and join the Pakistani army. Nobody ever from any part would ever say that getting to be a General in the PA is anything but on merit. My understanding is that Mush’s mum was a humble teacher. So my assertion is that becoming the head of PA is a possibility for any Pakistani. The same cannot be said about the PPP or the PNA and hence prime minister etc.
Unfortunately the majority of our public is not articulate or eloquent to make themselves heard because they do not have the literacy levels that we take for granted. However it is clear that anti American sentiment is high and they would never want to be part of an American geo political game whereby we forget about Kashmir, hold down China and make a few people in India and Pakistan get richer.
So I would say that you have no moral ground to push option one over option two. You wish for us to have no army or at the most a paramilitary police like force and for America and or India to decide our fate.
The Pakistan people through its army and patriots despite individuals like you will never allow for American and or Indian designs to become a reality in our country. American have not been able to get their way in Afghanistan after spending trillions of dollars. They certainly won’t against Pakistan its people, PA or ISI. So let me assure you for the avoidance of doubt that your option one is dead
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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That isn't really much of a prediction - the odds are that the India-Pakistan relationship will 'change and normalize over time' provided the leadership continues to be 'moderate' on both sides.
And since change is likely to happen, you'll just claim that 'the Army will be made to see the error of its ways in due course'?
Perhaps in time the Indians will be able to demonstrate that they can indeed be trusted, which will result in the Army relaxing in its stance - so who 'realized the error of their ways' here? The Army or the Indians?
Replace Indians with Pakistanis in your last paragraph and ask the question again ....
VCheng
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Don't even go there; you might just be surprised!
I will just ignore this personal comment. My loyalty is not affected by your erroneous proclamations.
How ironic! Therein lies the great tragedy of Pakistan. Rather than aspiring to be a General in the PA on merit, people like you should be wondering why your son or any Pakistani is not able to be the Prime Minister or an Industrialist on merit. Think about what I have just said.
You are incorrect; Pakistan must have a strong military and it must continue to maintain its nuclear deterrent. But beyond that, there is much more to be gained by expanding regional trade and participating in the global economy.
"People like me" are a better hope and resource for Pakistan than you can realize. Let's leave it at that.
---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
This process will happen on BOTH sides.
Doesnt look like it. Americas (and chengs) desire will happen, even though china, russia pakistani people and pakistan, afghanistan and its people in fact the entire neighbourhood dont want it,
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