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Def.pk op-ed: Mutual Blackmail, ETO for Afg, Pak and Ind

What solution to the Kashmir dispute can Pakistan hope to obtain through negotiations with India, currently or in the near past?

What alternative do you have in mind? I mean ones that have not already failed.

How do you see the potential solutions arrived at through negotiations, in the future, being worse than those that could be arrived at through negotiations today?

The one that was agreed during Musharraf's time are the only ones that are workable. And they are in line with what Pfpilot suggested.

Contrary to popular belief, the Kashmir Dispute is not the main factor holding Pakistan back - the factors affecting Pakistan's economic growth and development are the same as always - a corrupt ruling elite and billions of dollars annually lost through corruption and losses in the Public Sector Enterprises.

That seems to be the favorite whipping horse for you. All the problems are dumped on these two, leaving out all favorite policies and institutions. ;)
 
There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

For Pakistanis mired in a defeatist attitude, it is important to remember that India is not becoming the superpower like America. At most, it is going to be one of a multitude of major players -- most likely a junior player -- and there is going to be plenty of rivalry and politics at the top. With new power come new enemies (and friends).

So far, India has been the darling of the West because it is not taken seriously as a threat to their hegemony like China is. That calculation can change real fast.

Pakistan doesn't need to defeat India militarily, nor does it need to sacrifice its national interests in a panic to cosy up to India. It only needs to attain sufficient strength to be a credible and valued partner to any of the other major powers. That means focussing on our economy and foreign relations. It means forging new partnerships, but never at the expense of our existing allies.

The show hasn't even started yet. There is no need to panic and sacrifice our national interests. We need to focus on strengthening Pakistan.

And keep the popcorn handy.

There are not many options. None which you have not already tried.

USA filled the role for many decades and you became their most allied ally.

China is only one left and you are already their "higher than and deeper than" friends.

It is up to you to determine if Pakistan has and will continue to have the same importance for China as China has for Pakistan.

A nation of 200 million people should not depend on "need to attain sufficient strength to be a credible and valued partner to any of the other major powers". It should be a major power itself and should always have multiple partners.

And there is only one fundamental reason holding Pakistan from achieving that. Skirting around that fundamental issue can only take it so far.
 
Isn't that exactly what I am trying to say?

I never said the US and China are friends. Yes, they both are more like adversaries than anything, and per what you say - they both want to pull each other down.

Well, that's nothing unique to China. The US is at the apex so, of course, everyone else wants to pull it down. The EU was formed precisely to allow Germany/France to compete with the US. Equally naturally, the US will want to keep everyone else down to maintain its position.

So now if you look at it from my point of view, you will see that your arguments rather reinforce my contention that huge amount of bilateral trade has actually prevented a violent engagement of both the nations.

I never claimed anyone was going to go to war, but that does not negate the fact that they have competing interests and will undermine each other wherever possible. China and Japan also have big bilateral trade, but that hasn't stopped them vociferously defending their claims on contested territories.

What you call US's myopia, resulted from engagement in trade activities. It has helped China to hold a firm position in US's market.

The myopia comment was about US industries. As far as the administration is concerned, I pointed out how both containment and engagement were dual-track policies aimed at a common aim: to neutralize the CCP as a threat to American hegemony.

If the US collapses, China will be affected far more by its impact on the global economy than any direct trade. No, China will incur losses in 100s of billions of dollars if inflation hits the US currency. And the magnitude of direct trade between both the countries cannot be matched by other parties.

Not least before the RMB becomes a credible challenger to the USD's hegemony. First, China has too many dollars to just "dump" them. That will immediately bring the currency's value down, and China will again incur losses to the tune of 100s of billions of dollars.

Yes, China is not likely to dump the USD en masse. The point was that, with such huge holdings, China can manipulate the currency markets.

All I want you to understand is, no matter how much of enemy they may be, today's position of a powerful China became possible only after heavily engaging itself in trade with all the nations, irrespective of their status as enemy or friend.

Again, I have never discounted the importance of economic growth. My only comment on this particular proposal is that it doesn't provide any benefit to Pakistan which cannot be achieved otherwise -- without harming our Chinese relationship.

I hope you do understand that China is more of an export oriented economy, than a domestic one.

That's somewhat of an exaggeration. Exports account for about 25% of China's GDP, down from a high of 40% few years back. For comparison (and not to divert the thread) the figure for India is 20%.

Yes, the proposal will indeed involve India in the region with respect to trade and development related activities, and China too. But can you please elaborate a little on how is it going to turn into a tussle?

It is already a tussle. Firstly because of competition for the CARs resources, and secondly as India's response to China's string of pearls.
 
Rather than quote each post individually, I will combine all my answers into this one post. Hope that's OK.

Nobody's suggesting that India and the US are 'friends', but it's hard to deny that they share some common interests in containing China and emasculating Pakistan's army.

As for India being the darling of the West, of course we know it's a recent phenomenon. The point was that India is brimming with self-confidence and has America's backing; this is precisely the wrong time to negotiate with India -- and certainly not with American involvement! Contrary to Indian belief, this self-assertiveness is not a one way street and will be tempered with time. As India's energy needs get more acute, let mainstream Indian businesses be forced to chose between Kashmir and their own business interests. They will make sure the Indian media -- and consequently the government -- sings the right tune on being 'pragmatic'. All Pakistan needs to do is to stand its ground and focus on Iran, Afghanistan, China, etc. to improve its economy. India is not a priority.

Finally, I still haven't seen anyone address the two central points:

A- What does India bring to this deal that Pakistan can't get elsewhere? We know Pakistan brings its unique geographical location.

B- Since this proposal is specifically designed to undermine China's interests in the region, why should Pakistan be a part of it?

What you are suggesting flies in the face of all evidence and all history. We didn't compromise on our territorial integrity during far worse days.

And you are overestimating the leverage that Pakistan (as just a transit country) would have in the matter. You can't dictate terms both to the suppliers and the eventual consumers.

If there is a market for those resources in India, they will find a way to the market. Through an alternate route if needed.
 
There are not many options. None which you have not already tried.

I think even the most ardent Pakistani nationalist would accept that Pakistan has neglected its economic development. We are suggesting to focus on that as a primary aim. The only contention here is that this aim can be achieved by Pakistan without India.

It is up to you to determine if Pakistan has and will continue to have the same importance for China as China has for Pakistan.

Of course China will continually evaluate the relationship wrt to changing geopolitical realities. Hence my suggestion that Pakistan should focus on economic strength to continue being perceived as a valuable partner.

A nation of 200 million people should not depend on "need to attain sufficient strength to be a credible and valued partner to any of the other major powers". It should be a major power itself and should always have multiple partners.

Every country, except maybe USA, needs partners to achieve its goals. There is no shame in cooperation with like-minded partners to achieve common objectives.

And there is only one fundamental reason holding Pakistan from achieving that. Skirting around that fundamental issue can only take it so far.

Is this another dig at the army? If so, that's a whole different debate by itself.
 
What you are suggesting flies in the face of all evidence and all history. We didn't compromise on our territorial integrity during far worse days.

And you are overestimating the leverage that Pakistan (as just a transit country) would have in the matter. You can't dictate terms both to the suppliers and the eventual consumers.

If there is a market for those resources in India, they will find a way to the market. Through an alternate route if needed.

If you read my post, I never denied that India has alternatives. But they are more costly and, in a bid to be globally competitive, business will be more sensitive to their bottom line.

If Pakistan is 'just a transit country' then, by definition, it is not deriving much benefit from the trade. So why should we make life easier for India -- especially when it negatively impacts our existing ally? Let India go around the long way and pay a premium.
 
Aryan, Agnostic various


Chinese are very delicate and firm - our issue is day by day, Pakistan has to earn or lose it's relevance - it can't seem to come up with a position around which it can garner more and more support, even Indian support, after the Indians are not congenitally opposed to a Pakistani solution, so long as their interests get a fair hearing and fair consideration.

Agno points to what should be a no-brainer - Bonn in 2001 cut out all players who did not take US money, therefore this mistake should be remedied but that presupposes that the government of Afghanistan and the US want ot see reconciliation and not just surrender of the "terrorists", right?? And since the Pakistani, the Chinese and Russian and Iranian statements are all singing the same tune, namely solve the problem inside Afghanistan and the Afghan president choose to talk about "safe havens" and "terrorists" suggests that he remains unpersuaded (translation US military does not think that is a way forward)

So Istanbul fizzled, but this only means that the arm twisting and deal making will go in high gear, you haven't heard the last word from the US --

Aryan, sincerely appreciated the pieces about the Russian and Chinese view points and I have included below the piece the Russian article references - so it may help us understand further -This "heat of Asia" stuff is a dagger in the back of the powers in the region and to muscle into the region with military force, this idea is not new, recall that in the past the Chaudry was Pakistan till the Talib told the Pakistanis and Unocal and Gov Bush to take jump in the lake or come up with a better dea, now there is a new chaudry aspirant, will they fare better? Well, lok, so long as Pakistan is following her interets, why should it concern itself if there is a old or a new chaudry or no chaudry at all? :



October 18, 2011
SNAPSHOT
Why Regional Solutions Won't Help Afghanistan

The Myth of Neighborly Harmony

George Gavrilis

GEORGE GAVRILIS is Executive Director of the Hollings Center for International Dialogue [1]and the author of The Dynamics of Interstate Boundaries [2].

Determined to get out of Afghanistan sooner rather than later, Washington, the United Nations, and NATO have been hunting for a multilateral regional approach to the country's woes. U.S. officials have called for neighboring countries to pitch in ahead of the drawdown and have urged Afghanistan's neighbors to develop strategic partnerships to build up infrastructure, boost trade, increase investment, and fight extremism. In effect, the move is a recognition that during its ten years in Afghanistan, the United States has handed off too little of the task of stabilizing the country to Kabul's neighbors. As U.S. General John Allen recently indicated [3], there are many issues that cannot be solved out of Kabul, and Afghanistan needs a regional, not a national solution. Now, the United Nations is working on a plan for a joint security arrangement in the region based on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe of the 1970s. And until September, NATO had been working on a cooperative security and development initiative that was to be unveiled at the May 2012 summit on Afghanistan.

At first glance, the region's governments seem to be on board with long-term neighborly solutions. In 2010, Turkmen officials brokered an agreement to construct a natural gas pipeline through Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. This year, the Uzbek government inaugurated a rail line that connects the north of Afghanistan to Uzbekistan. Not to be outdone, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari proposed developing a fast cargo train line to connect Pakistan to Iran via Afghanistan. He billed it as a win-win-win megaproject that would boost the economy of every country involved.

But if a harmonious regional solution seems too good to be true, that is because it is. In the past decade, several multilateral initiatives have flopped. At an economic summit in 2005, upbeat delegates from six of Afghanistan's neighboring states pledged to support Afghanistan's reconstruction with mutual initiatives on trade, energy, security, and counternarcotics. Privately, UN officials admitted that backroom discussions were tense and unproductive. The Uzbek delegation left after the first session, the Iranians kept a low profile, and a Chinese diplomat described the proposed regional partnerships as "hackneyed."

Everyone got together again in Paris three years later. The agenda was a carbon copy of the 2005 proceedings, and what little cooperative spirit existed dissipated once ministers returned to their capitals. Uzbek diplomats, who had informally agreed to strengthen regional trade and multilateral counternarcotics efforts, did an about-face and spent much of the rest of the year accusing Afghanistan of narco-aggression. They insisted that they would stick to unilateral measures to combat the drug trade in the future. At recent high-level meetings in Islamabad, London, and Lisbon, much energy was squandered ensuring that the region's diplomats did not take offense to one another or the discussions. In the end, other than the usual hollow calls to "facilitate," "strengthen," "look closely," and "work together" regionally, little was actually achieved.

In reality, the region's accomplishments on Afghanistan have had little to do with multilateral summitry. To be sure, regional cooperation has been credited with bringing Central Asian electricity to Kabul. Yet, out of its own national interest, Uzbekistan was providing electricity to northern Afghanistan well before the past decade's summits. The most consequential agreement for the region's economy, a bilateral free-trade agreement between Afghanistan and Pakistan, came about because of protracted arm twisting by Richard Holbrooke, the late U.S. special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Now, with the recent deterioration in relations between Kabul and Islamabad over allegations that Pakistan's security agencies have aided the Taliban in several high-profile attacks and assassinations, the longevity of the agreement cannot be taken for granted
.

The real problem is the fact that, at best, Afghanistan's neighbors are strange bedfellows -- Iran, China, and Uzbekistan are anything but models of multilateralism. As Afghanistan's insurgency worsened in 2006, for example, Iran ratcheted up its war on drugs at the Afghan border and sent legions of intelligence operatives into Afghanistan. The enhanced border controls were helpful in putting pressure on Afghanistan's illicit opiate trade and making up for the Afghan government's lackluster counternarcotics initiatives. But they hardly made the case for multilateralism; Iranian officials regularly complained that their efforts saw little follow-up from Pakistan and Afghanistan. Turkmenistan's government paid lip service to multilateral peace initiatives, but, at one point in 2007, it might have secretly donated food, clothes, and fuel to Taliban fighters in return for their moving further into Afghanistan's interior and away from the Turkmen border. Finally, China will not increase its economic and political footprint in Afghanistan as long as it means becoming an insurgent target. Indeed, the vast majority of China's billions of dollars' worth of investment in Afghanistan is sunk in the Mes Aynak copper mine, south of Kabul, where the U.S. military provides free security.

And those are the better cases. Pakistan and Tajikistan are directly invested in Afghanistan's failure. For years, Pakistan's security agencies have fomented chaos in Afghanistan to maintain strategic depth against India. And Tajikistan's ability to collect lucrative international development aid is greatly owed to its proximity to dysfunctional Afghanistan. Tajik officials regularly present international donors with long lists of "win-win" cross-border development projects that, they insist, must be built on their side of the border. This means that Afghanistan accrues no benefits until much later, if at all. So even as Afghanistan's neighbors eagerly talk up solving common problems such as the drug trade, extremism, and poverty together, they have each found ways to live with and even profit from Afghanistan's debilitated state.

Rather than expecting Afghanistan's region to band together to help the country succeed, the United States, NATO, and the UN should focus on deflecting Afghanistan's most difficult neighbors so that the country can survive on its own. Two very recent developments suggest that the time for such a policy switch may be ripe, at least on the part of the United States. First, the U.S. military is toying with the idea of shifting troops from southern Afghanistan to a buffer zone between Kabul and the frontier with Pakistan, to deter cross-border movement of Taliban operatives. This is an admission that the region is more of a problem than an opportunity for Afghanistan.

Second, at a recent meeting over Libya, U.S. State Department officials engaged in side conversations to prod NATO representatives to halt work on a regional strategy and suggested that it may be more prudent to consider how Arab states might contribute more to Afghanistan. Growing private skepticism about regionalism is likely driven by a desire to scare Pakistan into behaving better; as such, it sheds little light on how regional approaches can be replaced with less untenable initiatives.

Ultimately, the solution may lie in pursuing bilateral initiatives with the more agreeable of Afghanistan's neighbors. This would mean working closely over the medium term with authoritarian governments such as Uzbekistan and Iran. Despite Uzbekistan's disappointing unilateralism, it does at least allow electricity and nonlethal supplies to transit across its territory en route to Afghanistan. Uzbekistan's role after the U.S. troop drawdown in 2014 is undefined, and the United States should encourage it to relax its notoriously closed borders so that Afghan goods have ready access to Eurasian markets.

Iran already gives Afghanistan access to valuable trade corridors, yet Iranian-Afghan relations have cooled recently. It is important to ensure that Tehran keeps its roads and ports open to Afghan goods to reduce Islamabad's ability to use future trade spats and border closures against Kabul. After the recent scandal over Iran's apparent plot to assassinate the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Washington is even more likely to isolate Iran, so the UN would conceivably have to take the lead in engaging Tehran.

China might also be encouraged to offset Pakistan's role. China and Pakistan enjoy relatively good relations, but these will inevitably come under strain if Pakistan-funded Taliban extremists in Afghanistan threaten Chinese mining investments, or destabilize Afghanistan's economy and thereby China's ability to export goods there. Rather than giving China the comfort of waiting until the 2014 troop drawdown to reassess its role, U.S. officials must start publicly and privately pressuring Beijing to act as a true stakeholder in Afghanistan -- reining in Pakistan and increasing its development and security aid to Afghanistan.

Resuscitating region-wide approaches is a fool's errand that will not save Afghanistan. It is time for the international community to dump diplomatic niceties and work with those neighbors whose policies could be molded to Afghanistan's benefit.
 
^^

Most of the article is just fluff, but the only salient point is logically inconsistent. If Pakistan 'controls' the Taliban, then why would they allow them to attack Chinese interests? And if Pakistan doesn't 'control' the Taliban, then why hold Pakistan responsible and ask China to 'rein it in'?
 
Here is a nice commentary on the multi-party conference on Afghanistan. Please note the text in red towards the end:

from: Afghanistan

Afghanistan’s neighbours
Jaw-jaw?
A regional conference struggles to find agreement about anything

Oct 29th 2011 | KABUL | from the print edition

FOREIGN-POLICY wonks and Central Asia watchers have long insisted that peace will never come to Afghanistan unless its scheming neighbours can be persuaded to stop meddling in its affairs. After dozens of articles in learned journals and years of handwringing about other powers fighting their own proxy battles, something is finally being done, in the form of a conference to be held in Istanbul on November 2nd.

One diplomat in Kabul compares the gathering of regional countries like Iran and India, as well as the “near-region” such as Saudi Arabia, to the Helsinki process that attempted to improve relations between the Warsaw Pact countries and the West in the 1970s. Unfortunately, in a mildly comic illustration of just how difficult it is to turn the abstract aspiration of “regional co-operation” into practical measures, this first tentative effort to curb outside interference in Afghan affairs has been plagued by just that: interference from all sides.

The meddling has been on full display in the sequence of drafts drawn up in recent weeks that will eventually turn into a document to be agreed at the conference. First came suggestions from France, which strains to qualify as either regional or near-regional. Its punchy paper aimed big, calling for the creation of a Central Asia Security Organisation, armed with inspectors capable of policing commitments not to support, host or even have contact with insurgent groups. Then the Russians could not resist writing up proposals to satisfy their own obsession about countering the flow of drugs out of Afghanistan.

Letting Westerners get their paws on the conference was exactly what the Afghans aimed to avoid, fearing it would spook key participants, especially the Iranians, who are most suspicious about the initiative. To that end, the non-regional conference participants were downgraded from much-too-official-sounding “observers” to more humble “supporters”.

With key regional countries making clear their lack of enthusiasm for a full-blown security apparatus, or even just another regional organisation, Turkey, which is hosting the conference, drafted a mere “declaration”. It called for a co-operation “initiative” with a vague mandate to pursue confidence-building measures.

This greatly annoyed the Afghans, who wanted something more. But their own draft “undertaking”, for a regional security “mechanism” that would eventually evolve into a permanent “structure”, had to be dumped in favour of a final document promising more meetings in the future to discuss worthy plans.

The French ambassador made clear his “deep disappointment” that the document had been so drained of substance. Meanwhile the real action on regional Afghan affairs will continue elsewhere, such as in this month’s bilateral strategic deal between India and Afghanistan.

As the disagreements continue, India, Pakistan, Iran and the other troublesome neighbours will no doubt get together from time to time for polite chinwags under the auspices of what might one day become known as the Istanbul process. One diplomat cautions against being overly cynical, however. Better trying to get something—anything—off the ground, he says. “Maybe in 15 or 20 years something might come of it.”

from the print edition | Asia
 
America blinded by power and losing the plot.

It is accepted that Americans have been unsuccessful in their attempt to defeat the Taleban militarily. The Americans themselves are stating that they wish to withdraw and at the very least will reduce their troops in Afghanistan.

The American’s push to offer option 1 as Muse puts it is simply a way of denying the wishes of Afghanis. Whoever else’s wishes are taken into account it must a least include the wishes of Afghanis. America insists that Karzai is democratically elected representative of the Afghani people. However international observers stated categorically that his election was rigged.

We need free and fair elections supervised and monitored by the international community in particular Russia, China and other neighbors in Afghanistan but exclude Americans as they are participants in war with one of the components of Afghani society.

We need to encourage all parties within Afghanistan’s to go to the ballot box. We must not forget that Americans Pakistanis and Saudis have sponsored Taleban militants in the past. In this Pakistan can encourage all to participate? Saudis can be asked to provide money for financing infrastructure in Afghanistan and also encourage their co religionists to go to the ballot box.

Americans and Saudis should be asked to pour money into Afghanistan and visibly be seen to be making the life of the average Afghanis bearable.

Only once we have genuine representatives of Afghanis only then can the international community assist them in security.

Any alternative to the above will not work. What do Americans want Pakistan and the rest of the neighborhood to do? Destroy Taleban when they couldn’t? Commit genocide?


It is suggested that if Pakistan does not participate in option 1 then it may be put under sanctions. I don’t really see how when the likes of Russia China and Iran are unlikely to be convinced of option 1. But Pakistan is no stranger to sanctions and it’s likely that China and certainly Iran would be supportive of Pakistan’s position. Further how would India benefit? How would the region benefit. What have Indians got that Americans haven’t? Why should or how could they succeed when America has failed?

There are no simple solutions but ignoring Afghanis is very naïve stupid and unhelpful to anyone and option 1 and or OP is also fatally flawed because it assumes Pakistani compliance.

To Cheng and those who have stated that option 1 is in process i would say that you can start cooking chicken curry. But at some stage you will need all the ingredients. In the absence of all the ingredients it will not be a chicken curry.
 
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To Cheng and those who have stated that option 1 is in process i would say that you can start cooking chicken curry. But at some stage you will need all the ingredients. In the absence of all the ingredients it will not be a chicken curry.

Does the chicken have a choice if the cook is gathering ALL the ingredients? :P
 
and accelerated economic progress for both, for starters.
This is the main advantage being argued - but in order to gauge the tangible economic gains for Pakistan from normalization of trade with India and access to her markets, can we look at some existing templates?

For example, how has 'normalized trade and access to Indian markets' affected the economies of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Iran etc.? Specifically, what are the bilateral trade numbers and what sorts of industries in these nations have boomed from 'normalized trade with India'?

In the case of Iran, what advantages has the Iranian economy and industry gained, outside of the export of fossil fuels?
 
What alternative do you have in mind? I mean ones that have not already failed.



The one that was agreed during Musharraf's time are the only ones that are workable. And they are in line with what Pfpilot suggested.
My point is that those arguing that the 'potential solutions for the Kashmir dispute will get worse with time, the longer Pakistan refuses to normalize relations with India' are ignoring the fact that outside of militarily annexing the parts of J&K under Pakistani control, India cannot offer a 'worse solution' than the one it is supposedly amenable to currently.
That seems to be the favorite whipping horse for you. All the problems are dumped on these two, leaving out all favorite policies and institutions. ;)
In terms of economic growth and development, that is the main cause, as has been argued in detail on various threads that you can go back and read through. The extremely low tax payer base, billions of dollars in losses subsidized by the tax payers in the PSE's and billions more lost through associated corruption and poor services is fact, and a huge drain on the economy. These losses have only kept growing, and until the basics of good governance are not implemented, any money saved from the defence budget will go down the drain like the rest of the resources available currently.
 
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