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Def.pk op-ed: Mutual Blackmail, ETO for Afg, Pak and Ind

No, the offers to negotiate the transfer of OBL to a third country for trial came about before a full invasion of Afghanistan got underway.

And the Taliban demands of evidence and negotiations over OBL were completely justified - the party engaging in wrong doing was the US, arrogant, unwilling to listen to reason and demanding as always.

I have stated what I read in the 911 report.

In the link perhaps you or Aryan provided in this thread, this is what it read:

The offer came a day after the Taliban's supreme leader rebuffed Bush's "second chance" for the Islamic militia to surrender Bin Laden to the US.

Mullah Mohammed Omar said there was no move to "hand anyone over".

Remember the offers and such were given out by others. Mullah Omar never stated of any offer, and when he did, he clearly denied offering Osama to the US.

And how is it that the US was acting arrogant, and how was Taliban justified, when even in the past the Taliban did not honor its word in handing over Osama to the US after Nov 1998 bombings? The US was left with no option but to bomb the Taliban because their word meant nothing.
 
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Point 1 is absurd - but trust me you just won't believe how many so called "senior officials and experts" buy into it -- unless the Pakistanis have some serious backing, it will make it's way into "agreements and undertakings"



but what Dr. Lodhi has offered is not the entirety of the story:

Iraq pullout threatens US Afghan presence
By Barbara Slavin

WASHINGTON - Washington's failure to gain Iraqi approval for a significant United States military presence in that country beyond December could make it harder for Afghanistan to agree to a similar deployment beyond 2014.

Vali Nasr, a former senior adviser to the State Department on Afghanistan and Pakistan, said the Iraq experience could be a "model" for Afghanistan. "Nobody thought the US could go completely out [of Iraq]," he told Inter Press Service (IPS) on Tuesday. "Now they have."

Frank Ruggiero, the deputy special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, told IPS, "I'm not aware of a spillover" from the Iraq negotiations, which foundered over Iraqi refusal to grant US forces immunity from local prosecution.

But he acknowledged that negotiations on a so-called strategic framework between the US and the government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai are not proceeding quickly. He said that the Afghans are focusing on issues such as US night raids and detention practices rather than the question of how many US forces remain in the country long-term.

Nasr and Ruggiero spoke on the sidelines of a symposium at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars that posed the question of whether there is "a regional endgame" for the decade-old US-led war in Afghanistan. Participants, who included former US secretary of state Henry Kissinger, were subdued in their assessments, noting that Afghanistan's neighbors have different priorities and have already begun to hedge their behavior in anticipation of a US withdrawal.

The Barack Obama administration is hoping that regional representatives, meeting Wednesday in Istanbul, will sign onto a series of principles declaring
"full respect for Afghan sovereignty and territory", according to a State Department official who briefed reporters on Monday and asked not to be named.

The official said that diplomats are also being asked to endorse a gradual transition from US security leadership to Afghan control, a political solution to the war and a so-called "New Silk Road" vision for regional economic prosperity.

Such declarations cannot paper over the real challenges Afghanistan faces in trying to build a stable future in an unsettled neighborhood.

Kissinger, speaking in his distinctive German-accented rumbling baritone, said that US administrations historically have gotten into wars with "objectives beyond the capacity of the US domestic consensus required to support and implement" them. In Afghanistan's case, he said, this included implanting a government "whose writ ran all over the country" and that would "represent some fundamental democratic principles such as women's rights and education".

Afghanistan, he said, "is a particularly difficult country to attempt this because it isn't really a state [but] a nation that comes together primarily to expel foreigners."

United States hopes to "win" the war are unrealistic, Kissinger suggested, given Pakistan's harboring of Taliban fighters. "I know of no guerrilla war that was won when there were sanctuaries within reach," he said.

He said the Obama administration should postpone major troop withdrawals as long as possible to maintain maximum leverage and should warn the neighbors that if they do not cooperate as the US withdraws, "You'll have to take the consequences on your own."

However, Afghanistan's two key neighbors - Pakistan and Iran - appear to prefer those consequences to a continued US military presence on their borders.

Iran has reportedly sent arms to the Taliban and cultivated an economic relationship with India that will allow both to trade with Afghanistan and Central Asia by circumventing Pakistan.

Pakistan, meanwhile, is believed to be harboring the Afghan militants with the most US blood on their hands, the Haqqani network,
which is said to be responsible for a series of spectacular attacks in Kabul including attacks on the Intercontinental Hotel and US Embassy and a weekend suicide bombing that killed a dozen US soldiers.

A story in the New York Times on Tuesday quoted unnamed Western analysts as saying that senior members of the Haqqani family, including brothers and children of patriarch Jalaluddin Haqqani, had been spotted recently in Islamabad.

Given that al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was found and killed by US forces in May in a nearby resort for retired military, Abbottabad, a senior Haqqani presence in the Pakistani capital would suggest that the Pakistani government is actively aiding the enemies of the United States while accepting billions in US military and economic aid.

Charges that Pakistan's intelligence services, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), were working with the Haqqani network first surfaced publicly in September when outgoing chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Michael Mullen, told congress that the Taliban leadership known as the Quetta shura and the Haqqanis "operate from Pakistan with impunity. attacking Afghan troops and civilians as well as US soldiers". Mullen went on to call the Haqqani network "a strategic arm" of the ISI.

The Obama administration subsequently tried a softer approach. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton led a high-profile inter-agency delegation to Pakistan last month which urged Pakistani officials to cooperate with the US in reining in the Haqqanis and bringing them to the negotiating table. That visit preceded last weekend's suicide bombing.

Nasr, who left the State Department earlier this year, said that US relations with "the two countries that are really important - Iran and Pakistan" - had steadily worsened while the US had the best relations with the countries "that matter the least" in terms of Afghanistan's long-term future.

Iran and the US are at odds over multiple issues, including Iran's nuclear program and alleged support for terrorism.

Anti-US sentiment in Pakistan is at historic highs since the killing of Bin Laden. Politician and former cricket star Imran Khan attracted over 100,000 people to a recent rally in Lahore at which he said that Pakistan would not allow itself to be "enslaved" by the United States or attack Pakistani militants at US bidding.

Pakistan and Iran "are very happy to help us leave but they are not necessarily going to support our vision for Afghanistan which includes (a continued US military) footprint," Nasr told the Wilson Center audience.

United States officials have spoken of leaving 20,000-25,000 US troops in Afghanistan beyond 2014 to shore up the Afghan government and continue counter-terrorism operations against al-Qaeda and its Pakistani allies. However, the appetite for the war has waned as US casualties rise beyond 1,800 killed and 15,000 wounded.

Kissinger, who served during Republican administrations that first widened the Vietnam War and then ended it through a peace deal that swiftly crumbled in a communist victory, warned against treating the Afghan conflict as a partisan issue.

"What this country really needs is a reconciliation at home," he said, speaking of the United States. "The national interest of the US doesn't change" with every election
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(Inter Press Service)
 
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I hope you can see how point 1 is operating the story above - like in so many stories - CIA has not paid for all of them
 
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I have stated what I read in the 911 report.

In the link perhaps you or Aryan provided in this thread, this is what it read:
The offers were made to transfer OBL to a third country, the US wanted an unconditional transfer to US custody - the US never gave negotiations a chance - can you point out to me when, after 9/11, high level US officials traveled to Afghanistan to negotiate a transfer of OBL and Co. to either US custody or a third party?
And how is it that the US was acting arrogant, and how was Taliban justified, when even in the past the Taliban did not honor its word in handing over Osama to the US after Nov 1998 bombings? The US was left with no option but to bomb the Taliban because their word meant nothing.
The US was arrogant, unreasonable and wrong because it was threatening and demanding the immediate and unconditional transfer of the accused - I recall no high level US diplomatic mission to Afghanistan to negotiate the surrender of OBL.
 
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The offers were made to transfer OBL to a third country, the US wanted an unconditional transfer to US custody - the US never gave negotiations a chance - can you point out to me when, after 9/11, high level US officials traveled to Afghanistan to negotiate a transfer of OBL and Co. to either US custody or a third party?

The US was arrogant, unreasonable and wrong because it was threatening and demanding the immediate and unconditional transfer of the accused - I recall no high level US diplomatic mission to Afghanistan to negotiate the surrender of OBL.

Man, why would the US send its mission to Afghanistan? They did not recognize that government. Taliban, only after getting bombed, decided to hand him over to Pakistan to be tried only under "Sharia law", and Pakistan refused.

Do you seriously think the Taliban would have handed Osama to someone coming from the US? Their specific condition was a third country, and for Osama to be tried under Sharia.

And while the ambassador to Pakistan says they may handover Osama to Pakistan, Mullah Omar comes with the statement that no one is getting handed over to anyone. Come on man, who do you really think is unreasonable and arrogant here?

I also told you in the previous post, the US tried to get OBL even after 1998 bombings and Taliban did a U-turn.

I cannot even comprehend how you take it as unreasonable demand of the US.
 
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Anyway america is not all knowing. If they had known when they were supporting taleban in the eighties the consequences I wonder what they would have thought. Similarly the consequences of their actions today may turn out diferently in due course
 
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I hope you can see how point 1 is operating the story above - like in so many stories - CIA has not paid for all of them
Yes, I see how 'point one' is operating in that story, as it has been in much of the 'analysis' in the US and Western media, but 'point one' is only applicable so long as 'political reconciliation' in Afghanistan does not take place.

Personally I believe that the 'fight and talk' approach of the US is meant precisely to scuttle any possibility of 'political reconciliation' with the Taliban, even if the Taliban were interested. If that is really the case, then any kind of 'binding international framework agreement for Afghanistan' would indeed be an attempt to marginalize and weaken Pakistan, given that the Taliban would not give up their fight and Pakistan would continue to not 'open another front'.

So what is really needed in order to move forward with the interests of all concerned parties being taken into account, is the presence of the so called 'Quetta Shura' and 'Haqqani Network', Hekmetyars and others, at the Istanbul, Bonn etc. conferences, along with the GoA.
 
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Man, why would the US send its mission to Afghanistan? They did not recognize that government. Taliban, only after getting bombed, decided to hand him over to Pakistan to be tried only under "Sharia law", and Pakistan refused.
If the US considered OBL guilty of 9/11, then they should have sent a diplomatic mission to negotiate his transfer - without even trying to do so, the US cannot be exonerated of being guilty of imposing an unnecessary and costly war in the region.

Do you seriously think the Taliban would have handed Osama to someone coming from the US? Their specific condition was a third country, and for Osama to be tried under Sharia.
I don't think the Taliban would have handed over anyone to the US, because they did not trust the US - a US diplomatic mission would try to negotiate either a transfer of OBL to US custody or transfer to a third country - the US never even tried.

And while the ambassador to Pakistan says they may handover Osama to Pakistan, Mullah Omar comes with the statement that no one is getting handed over to anyone. Come on man, who do you really think is unreasonable and arrogant here?
All the more reason to send a diplomatic mission to officially negotiate - rather than depending upon media soundbytes and second hand claims.

I also told you in the previous post, the US tried to get OBL even after 1998 bombings and Taliban did a U-turn.

I cannot even comprehend how you take it as unreasonable demand of the US.
There is no unreasonable demand here on my part - my position is the reasonable one, that the US, and other nations, should have sent official diplomatic missions to negotiate the surrender of OBL to US custody or a third party, while keeping the threat of war on the table if necessary.
 
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Hey behave cheng dont take that bit out of context. You know I have the ability to wind you up so behave. On the exalted blues stop being touchy just put a blue avatar up with tt written on it. In any event he said if as in hypothetical. I dont think america is prepared to give china what china would want to dump pakistan simple as that. note am not saying chinese wont dump us cos they are our mates I am saying the chinese will not be given what they would want to dump pakistan

Is that your answer? :lol: Resorting to "threats" that have no need or effectiveness?

I did not take that excerpt out of context; It was taken from the part that you accepted in your post to Muse.

Could you please try again to answer the question, if you can:
 
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A russian view

Clinton's Dubious Plan to Save Afghanistan With a 'New Silk Road'
By Joshua Kucera

Nov 2 2011, 11:05 AM ET

Most analysts seem to agree that the antiquity-era trade route is never coming back, so why is it America's new favorite idea for Central Asia?

When foreign ministers from Afghanistan, its neighbors, and several European countries meet today in Istanbul, U.S. diplomats will be pushing them to sign on to an ambitious plan for the future of Central Asia. The "New Silk Road," as the State Department is calling their strategy, would link the infrastructure -- roads, railways, power lines -- of the 'Stans of post-Soviet Central Asia southward through Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. At the same time, they would work with the governments to reduce legal and bureaucratic impediments to trade, like corrupt border crossings.

The hope is that this would produce a flowering of East-West overland trade akin to the original Silk Road, by which China traded with the Middle East via Central Asian trade centers like Kashgar, Bukhara, and Samarkand. "Turkmen gas fields could help meet both Pakistan's and India's growing energy needs and provide significant transit revenues for both Afghanistan and Pakistan," Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in a speech outlining the vision. "Tajik cotton could be turned into Indian linens. Furniture and fruit from Afghanistan could find its way to the markets of Astana or Mumbai and beyond." (Clinton was originally scheduled to pitch her counterparts in Istanbul, but the death of her mother forced her to cancel the trip.)

If this is the best Washington can come up with, the future for Afghanistan looks bleak


But hope may be the only thing driving on the New Silk Road. The State Department has few good options in Afghanistan, and the U.S. doesn't want to leave (or at least wants to seem like they won't leave) a disaster behind once it starts pulling troops out in 2014. So it cast about for ideas and found the New Silk Road proposal, which had been bouncing around the post-Soviet think tank circuit in Washington since the mid-oughts.

The plan's architect is Fred Starr, the chair of the Central Asia-Caucasus Institute, a small Washington, D.C. think tank, with the backing of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. State Department officials have long been wary of the plan, initially dismissing it as unworkable. But it began to gain favor last year at U.S. Central Command, and with its commander at the time, General David Petraeus. Since Marc Grossman became President Obama's special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan earlier this year, replacing the late Richard Holbrooke, the State Department has come around to support the strategy. And Clinton has appeared to embrace it as the economic foundation of the U.S.'s post-2014 strategy for Afghanistan, promoting it in her meetings last month with the presidents of three of Afghanistan's neighbors: Pakistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan.

The origins of the plan, however, lie in geopolitics rather than economics. In the mid-oughts, there were a variety of programs by which the U.S. tried to unite South and Central Asia, including an effort to tie together the electrical grids of Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan with those of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Authority for the Central Asian countries were also moved under a new State Department bureau, taking them out of the Europen bureau with the rest of the post-Soviet republics and connecting them with South Asia. What these schemes all have in common is that they attempt to weaken the economic (and as a result, political) monopoly that Russia, by dint of the centralized Soviet infrastructure, has on these countries.
As Marlene Laruelle writes in a new book, Mapping Central Asia, which includes a great chapter on the revived metaphor of the New Silk Road: "The underlying geo-economic rationales of these Roads is to exclude Moscow from new geopolitical configurations."

The State Department doesn't say this, of course, and it's possible (even likely) that the people now implementing the strategy don't think of it as such. Clinton even implied that there could be some sort of connection with the Russia-led Customs Union with Kazakhstan and Belarus, which is the basis for Vladimir Putin's notorious Eurasian Union.

But this geopolitical vestige lives on in the current iteration of the New Silk Road. Look at a map of South and Central Asia -- ideally, one where you can see topography and the quality of roads -- and it's apparent that the most sensible way to ship goods from India west is not the northern route over the massive mountain passes and crumbling roads of Central Asia. It's the southern route, through Iran and Turkey. But, obviously, a U.S.-backed plan can't include Iran.

There are also political barriers to inter-Central Asian trade. George Gavrilis, an expert on Central Asia and borders, described them in a recent piece in Foreign Affairs. Many of the countries in the region, he notes, have persistent problems with their neighbors: Pakistan with Afghanistan and India, Uzbekistan with Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. Trade agreements are fragile and susceptible to political difficulties; the border between Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan was closed for 18 months following last summer's violence in southern Kyrgyzstan. More fundamentally, a region-wide strategy would be unlikely to work because the countries that surround Afghanistan -- China, Pakistan, Iran and the 'stans -- all have very different interests and little desire to cooperate with one another. "I love the idea," Gavrilis told me when I asked about the New Silk Road. "But I just don't see how it can be implemented,"

Notwithstanding the romance of the original Silk Road, Laruelle notes in her book, the geopolitical situation has changed quite a bit in the centuries since. "The border divisions of the 20th century have transformed these ancient trans-continental routes into cul-de-sacs of nation-states and no simple political will to declare a zone a 'crossroads' can suffice to influence the reality of being in the margins," she writes.

And the reason the first Silk Road died out? Sea transport became much cheaper, which is still true today. So plans, she continues, "to modify in depth the status quo of global trade, three-quarters of which is carried out by sea, by replacing it with continental trade on the pretext that, once upon a time, caravans used to travel along these routes, can not be taken seriously."

The State Department, in its public statements on the plan, highlights a handful of existing or proposed projects on which the New Silk Road could be modeled, including a free-trade agreement signed last year between Pakistan and Afghanistan and the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India (TAPI) natural gas pipeline. But they give little reason for optimism. The Pakistan-Afghanistan agreement was laboriously, personally brokered by Holbrooke but has yet to be implemented, and with relations between the two countries suffering, may never actually happen.

The TAPI pipeline has been discussed since the 1990s, but as with similar schemes, insecurity in Afghanistan has scared away companies that might have the capital to build such a pipeline. With U.S. and NATO troops departing, the security situation is likely to decline even further, a problem that the plan's boosters acknowledge. "We have continued insecurity and instability in Afghanistan," Sham Bathija, senior economic adviser to President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, said at a recent conference in Washington on the strategy. "Yet we have no choice but to forge ahead."

It's not clear what eventually convinced the State Department to embrace the New Silk Road. Starr is an eloquent proponent, and his enthusiasm can be infectious. But more than anything, the adoption of the plan speaks, as Bathija suggests, to the lack of good options for post-2014 Afghanistan. If this is the best Washington can come up with, the future for Afghanistan looks bleak.

But that's not to say that there are no other choices. Instead of pushing an ambitious multilateral plan for Afghanistan, Gavrilis' article suggests the U.S. should work with the countries it can actually do something with, tailoring individual strategies to each particular country's interest: "Resuscitating region-wide approaches is a fool's errand that will not save Afghanistan. It is time for the international community to dump diplomatic niceties and work with those neighbors whose policies could be molded to Afghanistan's benefit."

This lacks the romance of the Silk Road and the ambitious vision of a thriving Europe-Asia trade corridor. But it has a lot better chance of succeeding.


Well Russians are going to need convincing and Putin who is about to make a comeback is a little more cynical about america than his medewhateva mate
 
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........................(Kissinger) said the Obama administration should postpone major troop withdrawals as long as possible to maintain maximum leverage and should warn the neighbors that if they do not cooperate as the US withdraws, "You'll have to take the consequences on your own."

However, Afghanistan's two key neighbors - Pakistan and Iran - appear to prefer those consequences to a continued US military presence on their borders.

So what are the potential consequences and is Pakistan prepared to take them?
 
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Is that your answer? :lol: Resorting to "threats" that have no need or effectiveness?

I did not take that excerpt out of context; It was taken from the part that you accepted in your post to Muse.

Could you please try again to answer the question, if you can:

Back to topic your OP is completly flawed and not getting anywhere quickly. You did take that out of context I was responding to the overall article not just the section you high lighted bit touchy are we cos I appreciated what muse said and didnt appreciate your drivel?
 
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Back to topic your OP is completly flawed and not getting anywhere quickly. You did take that out of context I was responding to the overall article not just the section you high lighted bit touchy are we cos I appreciated what muse said and didnt appreciate your drivel?

So why not answer the question then? :D
 
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So what are the potential consequences and is Pakistan prepared to take them?

Nonestop propaganda that we have already had for the last 6 months. From that article from Rt that I put up this is idea has been around for a while its only now in desparation that americans are trying to push it. But forget pakistan and Iran its clear that Russia aint exactly overjoyed by it and america can not bully russia

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

So why not answer the question then? :D

Read my posts just cos you cant see it and put that smiley on doesnt mean I havent answered you. You are in denial mate
 
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And now we have a Chinese view

China takes higher-profile role in Afghan diplomacy - diplomats
Reuters | 01:17 AM,Nov 03,2011

By Jonathon Burch and Myra MacDonald ISTANBUL (Reuters) - China called on Wednesday for an independent and stable Afghanistan free from outside interference, in what diplomats interpreted as a new, higher-profile effort by Asia's largest economy to take a more active role in its neighbour's future. Speaking at a conference on Afghanistan in Istanbul, Chinese Deputy Foreign Minister Liu Zhenmin urged the international community to respect Afghanistan's sovereignty and said Afghans must rally behind a national reconciliation. "The international community must support an Afghanistan run by the Afghans," Liu said. "We must pledge to respect Afghanistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity, to respect the dignity and rights of its government and people to be masters of their own country." China has previously steered well clear of any serious political engagement in Afghanistan, focusing instead on investing billions of dollars in the Central Asian country as it hunts precious resources and profit. But senior Western diplomats said China's position in Istanbul reflected a positive move away from Beijing's wait-and-see stance when it came to Afghanistan's politics and security. "They realise that a policy of further being on the wings, watching what goes on and ready to pick up things, isn't good enough," said one senior diplomat. For the first time, diplomats said, the Chinese had taken an active role in the drafting of the conference communique mapping out regional cooperation on Afghanistan's security. "They were very vocal and raised several issues during the drafting. We weren't even allowed to begin the final version until the Chinese delegation had arrived," another Western diplomat said, adding that the final version was not finished until early on Wednesday. "Before, you would attend meetings on Afghanistan and the neighbours would be silent, and here you have them taking a lead and that's what it is all about," said another diplomat. "The Chinese for the first time were very comprehensive and constructive, you could really see an elevated role of China in the region and more outspoken than ever before," he said. All the diplomats spoke on condition of anonymity so they could speak freely on the subject. A senior member of China's delegation in Istanbul, who also wanted to remain anonymous, said: "The communique reflects the consensus of the regional countries". FOREIGN TROOPS LEAVING China has watched the Soviet Union and the United States struggle in Afghanistan, which has largely shaped Beijing's more reticent approach -- investing billions of dollars in the country but shying away from political or military influence. But China also fears the spread of Islamic militancy from Afghanistan into its restive Western Xinjiang region, home to millions of Uighur Muslims, and a new stance by Beijing may signal a fear of what will happen after 2014 when most Western forces will have left Afghanistan. "They understand the footprint of the international community, especially of international forces, will be reduced, if not all, to a very minimum," said one diplomat. "Attention is moving elsewhere and there is also increasing recognition that what this country (Afghanistan) needs is a serious security dialogue among the countries involved." China's ties with Afghanistan have long been strongly influenced by the powerful bonds that tie Beijing and Islamabad. China supplies finance and weapons to Pakistan and the two are also bound by mistrust of neighbouring India. "The West will also need to engage China to talk about the region and Afghanistan, especially bearing in mind China's close relations with Pakistan, and I don't think we have done that," said the same diplomat. "It's just a gentle reminder by China that the West has to talk to China and not only to India or Pakistan when it comes to Afghanistan and the region." Expectations were low before the Istanbul conference, with violence in Afghanistan at its worst levels after more than 10 years of war and with Afghan-Pakistani ties at a new low since the murder of the chief Afghan peace envoy in September. But delegates were upbeat at the end of Wednesday's talks, agreeing to a series of wide-ranging commitments in the 12-page communique. Among those were "resolutely combating and eliminating terrorism", preventing safe havens for terrorists and terrorism in the region", and "dismantling terrorist sanctuaries". "It's a very complex gathering of countries with very different, sometimes conflicting national agendas but if we can move forward in facilitating the birth of regional dialogue on security matters, that's what I think Istanbul is all about," said a Western diplomat after the conference. "But what is going to be most important is what will be the follow-up. Will they retain the momentum? Will they deliver with deeds and not only words?" (Editing by Tim Pearce)

Hey Muse what do you reckon. China will speak and will not be bullied by america nor desert pakistan. I have seen past articles when chinese say reconciliation in afghanistan they mean all parties including taleban. Hope those tossers realise they have to fall in line
 
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