Death Of The Liberal Turkish Dream

[Zulkarneyn]

You my brother are a diamond. Thanks for providing me with so much knowledge. I love you. I will pray for you and your mother and family when I do taraweeh. Thank you so much. Turkey Pakistan Zindabad!

Actually, your post is so informative it should be recorded, If I can be honest with you.

Thanks i guess

 

[lastofthepatriots]

I can't give you percentages as there are differant shades of grey so it is difficult to quantify. However they are and I say this with absolute regret, the majority. Thankfully their influence on levers of power is not total otherwise Pakistan would have gone to the dogs like Afghanistan.

They are the cause why Pakistan is in the condition it is in. They and their blabbering nonsense. They can fool you guy's but I know what they are. You guy's think they are like religious Turks along the lines of @Zulkarneyn. They are not. They are believers in mish mash of superstition, defeatism, retardness and some aspects of ritual Islam mixed with strong dose of extreme politics. It is anything but Islam as you understand it.The final product is just narrow minded bigotry lacking any reason or logic.

You saw that how @lastofthepatriots made assumptions about hookers, not taking care of parents, wearing suits and shaving. In this guy's book the founder of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah was the biggest ba*stard. He shaved. He worse suit. He kept dogs. He was educated in the West.

More later. I have enough of these guy's.

You pissed me off, but since you are older than me, I don't want to disrespect you. You are putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said. If you continue doing this, you will be no better than a liar. Cut this kala engrez complex out man. You are nearly ready to meet Allah swt. Stop this kind of cheap behavior. I know you have class, so why are you behaving this way?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

You pissed me off, but since you are older than me, I don't want to disrespect you. You are putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said. If you continue doing this, you will be no better than a liar. Cut this kala engrez complex out man. You are nearly ready to meet Allah swt. Stop this kind of cheap behavior. I know you have class, so why are you behaving this way?

Okay let's just back off. We probably agree on more things than not so let this be. Salaam.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

I can't give you percentages as there are differant shades of grey so it is difficult to quantify. However they are and I say this with absolute regret, the majority. Thankfully their influence on levers of power is not total otherwise Pakistan would have gone to the dogs like Afghanistan.

They are the cause why Pakistan is in the condition it is in. They and their blabbering nonsense. They can fool you guy's but I know what they are. You guy's think they are like religious Turks along the lines of @Zulkarneyn. They are not. They are believers in mish mash of superstition, defeatism, retardness and some aspects of ritual Islam mixed with strong dose of extreme politics. It is anything but Islam as you understand it.The final product is just narrow minded bigotry lacking any reason or logic.

You saw that how @lastofthepatriots made assumptions about hookers, not taking care of parents, wearing suits and shaving. In this guy's book the founder of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah was the biggest ba*stard. He shaved. He wore suit. He kept dogs. He was educated in the West.

@Zulkarneyn

Question for you. If you were asked the simple question "Who are you"? Which of these would you choose. Please pick only one option.

(i) Turk
(ii) Muslim
(iii) Male
(iv) Anatolian
(v) Don't know

I would pick the one that defines me the most, people know i'm muslim already and that doesn't tell much about me so i wouldn't pick that. What inherently i have internalized the most throughout my childhood are the Anatolian values and charecteristics, thus i would say Anatolian

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Thanks i guess

@Zulkarneyn Many times Turkish members tell us that we have no idea about Turkey, and it's politics. They warn us to stay out of the discussion. You have given me a good amount of knowledge. This doesn't mean I will interfere with Turkish politics threads, but you gave me a good idea of some contemporary Turkish history. Thanks brother.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Anatolian

I figured as much. That is why I included "Anatolian". You obviously are more religious than most Turks here who without doubt would say "Turk". However in your case you would fall back on the pre secular identity which ws rooted in the complex of the Anatolian with one of that complex being Islam of course.

Ask that in Pakistan they will say. Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, Dhesi, Asian, Apna etc. You would have to get a gun to their heads before they say "Pakstani". I know that might be exaggeration but it conveys the truth. That is why Pakistani's are waiting muppets for the next bearded guy to whip them into another jihad some where some place.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

@Zulkarneyn Many times Turkish members tell us that we have no idea about Turkey, and it's politics. They warn us to stay out of the discussion. You have given me a good amount of knowledge. This doesn't mean I will interfere with Turkish politics threads, but you gave me a good idea of some the Turkish history. Thanks brother.

You are welcome.
@Kaptaan if you truly want to live in harmony with your Pakistani brethren then you would heed their grievances and try and represent them, however the circumstances. Your Muslim identity is unassailable, but that shouldn't stop there, you are Pakistanis who, regardless of your backgrounds, must stand for your interest in these murky waters. And that entails ultimately understanding how the majority of your people think like, how you can use these values to your advantage, not fight against it, make use of it. I'm 100% confident we will see a much stronger Pakistan that gains strenght from their unique traditions culture and unity, in no more than few decades, inshallah.

I figured as much. That is why I included "Anatolian". You obviously are more religious than most Turks here who without doubt would say "Turk". However in your case you would fall back on the pre secular identity which ws rooted in the complex of the Anatolian with one of that complex being Islam of course.

Ask that in Pakistan they will say. Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, Dhesi, Asian, Apna etc. You would have to get a gun to their heads before they say "Pakstani". I know that might be exaggeration but it conveys the truth. That is why Pakistani's are waiting muppets for the next beared guy to whip them into another jihad some where some place.

Well, i'm a sucker for the Ottoman Empire, that's why i chose Anatolian, since Anatolia has been the land of many Turkish empires and dynasties, from the Seljuks to the Ottomans. My hometown is very central to the Seljuk empire.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Well, i'm a sucker for the Ottoman Empire

So am I.

I personally take the following from this. Social engineering attempted at bettering your citizenry and economy is good. Interpreting Islam as the only variable for backwardness is bad. True progress means incorporating and internalizing scientific and social progress in conjunction with the traditional values. Traditional values, including religion, won't necessarily act as obstacle to these goals, quite contrary it will boost your coherency and nationalism once you comprehend how it acts as the binding glue to your society

10/10. This is refreshing. I have no problem with Islam. My problem is that colonial slavery left terrible legacy in Pakistan. What happened is those aspects of our erstwhile conquerors the British like scientific rationalism, even clothing, even social mores became to be seen as anti Islam. Thus many mullahs of the period started to define Islam in the shadow of Western culture. This has created the present problems. Try to do anything and it is seen as "Western" thus automatically inimical to Islam. That is why polio eradication programmes are seen as Western conspiracy. Wearing a suit is seen as bad. It's crazy.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

What happened is those aspects of our erstwhile conquerors the British like scientific rationalism, even clothing, even social more became to be seen as anti Islam. Thus many mullahs of the period started to define Islam in the shadow of Western culture. This has created the present problems. Try to do anything and it is seen as "Western" thus automatically inimical to Islam. That is why polio eradication programmes are seen as Western conspiracy. Wearing a suit is seen as bad. It's crazy.

This sounds exactly like the last 2 centuries of the Ottoman Empire. Back then the interpretation of Islam halted the Ottoman Progress in the realms of scientific development, even though the Ottoman Empire up till the 17th century was one of the leading states, in every sense of the word, including scientific societal progress.

That's a very dangerous cocktail, and education seems like the only means to eradicate such demorilizing dogmas. Pakistanis overseas can challenge and bring about the change you need. The current Turkish landscape mostly came about due to strong Turkish diasporas worldwide who mobilized effectively and constituted societies political groupings in the West and supporting movement in Turkey that deserved to be supported and come to the top, the current elite.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Zulkarneyn You guy's in Turkey and even Iran do not carry this burden of "slavery" and thus are very free to pick and choose anything from the world without breaking into epileptic fits. That is why Ankara and Istanbul and Turkish Muslim on the face of it look no differant from Paris or London. However you have retained the essence of Islam as opossed to externalizing it.

In other words you guy's pick what is good and not break into long debates whether it is Islamic. In Pakistan all too often to prove your a good Muslim involves in doing opposite of what the world does. If they shave. We do not shave. If they wear suits. We are not going to wear suits. etc etc.

And it's been a pleasure discussing with you what often is a emotive subject. Maybe later or in another thread you could join me in reasoned, well informed discourse. See you later.

 

[MarkusS]

You are welcome.
@Kaptaan if you truly want to live in harmony with your Pakistani brethren then you would heed their grievances and try and represent them, however the circumstances. Your Muslim identity is unassailable, but that shouldn't stop there, you are Pakistanis who, regardless of your backgrounds, must stand for your interest in these murky waters. And that entails ultimately understanding how the majority of your people think like, how you can use these values to your advantage, not fight against it, make use of it. I'm 100% confident we will see a much stronger Pakistan that gains strenght from their unique traditions culture and unity, in no more than few decades, inshallah.


Well, i'm a sucker for the Ottoman Empire, that's why i chose Anatolian, since Anatolia has been the land of many Turkish empires and dynasties, from the Seljuks to the Ottomans. My hometown is very central to the Seljuk empire.

Anatolian heritage is far more than "turkish". Turkish is not even 1% of it.

We italians are also anatolian (Troy).

 

[Zulkarneyn]

@Zulkarneyn You guy's in Turkey and even Iran do not carry this burden of "slavery" and thus are very free to pick and choose anything from the world without breaking into epileptic fits. That is why Ankara and Istanbul and Turkish Muslim on the face of it look no differant from Paris or London. However you have retained the essence of Islam as opossed to externalizing it.

In other words you guy's pick what is good and not break into long debates whether it is Islamic. In Pakistan all too often to prove your a good Muslim involves in doing opposite of what the world does. If they shave. We do not shave. If they wear suits. We are not going to wear suits. etc etc.

And it's been a pleasure discussing with you what often is a emotive subject. Maybe later or in another thread you could join me in reasoned, well informed discourse. See you later.

Just don't lose courage and patience, everything in its due time, seeing passionate people like you, i'm sure Pakistan's future will be in excellent hands.

Anatolian heritage is far more than "turkish". Turkish is not even 1% of it.

We italians are also anatolian (Troy).

I don't deny this, Anatolians are a unqie breed of people, and i think that's wonderful

 

[MarkusS]

Just don't lose courage and patience, everything in its due time, seeing passionate people like you, i'm sure Pakistan's future will be in excellent hands.


I don't deny this, Anatolians are a unqie breed of people, and i think that's wonderful

I think most dont know how rome was founded.

We romans consist of two parts mainly. One part originates from a powerful anatolian kingdom ... troy. There was a gigantic war that lasted many years between the greeks and troy. In the end our ancestors lost and troy felt. The survivors escaped over the sea and settled in italian peninsula. There they mixed with the local etruskians and formed what we know as italians now and the roman empire.

I´m pretty sure you have old "pre turkish" customs that are similar to some very old pre roman customs we have.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

I think most dont know how rome was founded.

We romans consist of two parts mainly. One part originates from a powerful anatolian kingdom ... troy. There was a gigantic war that lasted many years between the greeks and troy. In the end our ancestors lost and troy felt. The survivors escaped over the sea and settled in italian peninsula. There they mixed with the local etruskians and formed what we know as italians now and the roman empire.

I´m pretty sure you have old "pre turkish" customs that are similar to some very old pre roman customs we have.

Didn't know this, interesting story. I knew Troy is in Anatolia, but that's about it, and i also like Hector more than Achilles in the movie
But after the Seljuks beyliks conquered patches of Anatolian landscape, many Anatolian's converted to Islam, hence the genetic makeup of current Turkish

 

[MarkusS]

Look,

This Aeaneas after hi escape from Troy..he is tired and still shocked from the defeat with little hope left...he meets then in his dreams the god named Tiber...

as you know the Tiber is the great river through rome...Aeaneas then build up the first society and settlements. He and his men mixed with the local etruskians and one of his grandsons then build Rome.

We might be not that nice towards each otehr today but i´m quite sure we share a common ancestors few hundred generations ago.

@Zulkarneyn @Sinan