Death Of The Liberal Turkish Dream

[Zulkarneyn]

Risking to make someone a dictator just because he seems funny isnt a very productive way of thinking, its like saying lets vote for Trump because he is funny though Trump could never become a dictator while Erdogan with enough support could.

Thats exactly the thing thats going wrong in Turkish politics, our voters arent aware of the threats our democracy is facing at the moment.

Honestly i don't see any candidate in Turkey capable to challenge him. I don't know if it's because the internal politics of CHP and MHP is completely corrupt or whatever. But they don't know how to do politics, they don't know how to appeal to Anatolian Turks. CHP is currently copying the "islam" aspect of Erdogan, but even that doesn't work.
How would you think things would change in such an environment? I don't think it will change for many years until we see competent intelligent people that truly understands the grievances of Turks and can deliver their promise.

 

[xenon54 out]

Honestly i don't see any candidate in Turkey capable to challenge him. I don't know if it's because the internal politics of CHP and MHP is completely corrupt or whatever. But they don't know how to do politics, they don't know how to appeal to Anatolian Turks. CHP is currently copying the "islam" aspect of Erdogan, but even that doesn't work.
How would you think things would change in such an environment? I don't think it will change for many years until we see competent intelligent people that truly understands the grievances of Turks and can deliver their promise.

Agree but still there is a bigger danger at the moment, Turkey will have a real problem if he clinges on absolute power just saying.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Agree but still there is a bigger danger at the moment, Turkey will have a real problem if he clinges on absolute power just saying.

I totally agree. No one is in position to check his power any longer, now all we are left with, is his personality, cause let's face it. He is a Sultan in every sense of the word

 

[xenon54 out]

I totally agree. No one is in position to check his power any longer, now all we are left with, is his personality, cause let's face it. He is a Sultan in every sense of the word

Well then you should think twice about voting for such a person again, at least i did, my only vote that i used in my life went to AKP back when they were promising a future for Turkey, today he is one of the last politcians i would ever trust my vote.

 

[T-123456]

You mean like this guy below? Forget about the suit look at those shoes?? I want the same!

I have no idea what you are on about. There is good and bad everywhere. I have done very well and have never been treated as a savage. For sure my living standard is higher than the average "European" as you call it and this is a opportunity that has been afforded to me by the majority of my peers.

If you are sore than don't going around shafting others. Maybe you need to look at where you have gone wrong. With your attitude I am not surprised you have been treated like a "savage".


Yeh I can see that. Looking at everything through white/brown and non Muslim/Muslim is being pragmatic. Your no differant from the far right.


I worship modern/world values. The same values found in New York, London, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, China, Seoul, South Korea,Tokyo, Japan.

Link > http://www.dawn.com/news/1263121/china-restricts-fasting-in-ramazan-for-xinjiang-govt-staff-minors

You represent the defeated servile thinking borne of colonialism. You choose to still carry the scars from that period. Your language gives it away. You need to accept the past, learn and move on.

What percentage of your population thinks like Lastofthepatriots ?

 

[CrimsonFury]

Ah this woman is really expert on Turkey is she not ? A Kuwaiti should be concerned more about Kuwait as you have nothing resembling democracy. If democracy in the Middle East is such a concern of yours...

 

[lastofthepatriots]

What percentage of your population thinks like Lastofthepatriots ?

We are mostly village people and majority Muslims. We could never even dream of being as advanced as Anatolian Turks. You might find it ironic, but it is us conservative Muslim Pakistanis that love Turkey and Turkish people like our own. The liberals and atheists, not so much.

After your air force shot down the russian bomber, and threats from Russia were coming, it was those secular weasels reporting on the Pakistani news without a care in the world. But in the Mosques/Jammis it was conservative Muslim Pakistanis that were volunteering to form Mujahadeen to fight the Russians If they dared to attack Turkey.

So If you want to think that us religious people are backward, that's your own prerogative. We might not be as smart as you european based intellectuals, but we have morals and we are loyal.

Maybe, If our ancestors were secularists, they would have never cared about the Ottoman Caliphate. But Alhamdulillah, our ancestors were Muslims and brothers of the Ottomans.

 

[Mentee]

Turkey is drifting towards sharia since 15 years but didnt happen so far

sir,Turkey is not drifting towards Sharea,instead, leaning towards a rabid ikhwaani ideology aka serve beduoines than serving Islam----sunnism/sufism in Turkey is going down the drain rapidly,this is what folks here and in other musalman countries feel

 

[xenon54 out]

sir,Turkey is not drifting towards Sharea,instead, leaning towards a rabid ikhwaani ideology aka serve beduoines than serving Islam----sunnism/sufism in Turkey is going down the drain rapidly,this is what folks here and in other musalman countries feel

Your feelings are wrong then, no Turk knows what ikwaani means and nobody is interested in serving anyone.

 

[Mentee]

Your feelings are wrong then, no Turk knows what ikwaani means and nobody is interested in serving anyone.

i hope and pray that this ghost of an ikhwaani dream don't become a reality

Now I understand why the Shiites are so adamant about defending a bloody despot in Syria.

take your sectarian shi*** elsewhere

 

[lastofthepatriots]

@Zulkarneyn

I have a question brother. This has nothing to do with any specific country.

Why is it that Muslim villagers and citizens are back bone of these nations, yet we receive nothing. The people in our governments are liberal, secular, and never worked a hard day's work in their lives, but they float to the top. We work the fields, factories and mills, and never reach the top, but our liberal/secularists receive high positions and when they do, they insult us working class people. The engine of the nation. We make sure the nation runs, and the secularists and liberals make sure to steal even more from us.

I feel like the common Muslim on the street has had enough. We are not extremists like ISIS, but we demand respect like any other human being does. For all that we do, we get looked down upon, and our religious beliefs get trashed by city dwelling liberals that don't even give a shit about their own parents.

This might not be the case in your country, but it is in mine. Can you give me some advice, effendi?

No! Can you give me some advice regarding this brother?

 

[KediKesenFare3]

@Zulkarneyn

I have a question brother. This has nothing to do with any specific country.

Why is it that Muslim villagers and citizens are back bone of these nations, yet we receive nothing. The people in our governments are liberal, secular, and never worked a hard day's work in their lives, but they float to the top. We work the fields, factories and mills, and never reach the top, but our liberal/secularists receive high positions and when they do, they insult us working class people. (...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Tigers

Today economy is growing faster in Anatolian cities than in Izmir, Istanbul or Ankara.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

@Zulkarneyn

I have a question brother. This has nothing to do with any specific country.

Why is it that Muslim villagers and citizens are back bone of these nations, yet we receive nothing. The people in our governments are liberal, secular, and never worked a hard day's work in their lives, but they float to the top. We work the fields, factories and mills, and never reach the top, but our liberal/secularists receive high positions and when they do, they insult us working class people. The engine of the nation. We make sure the nation runs, and the secularists and liberals make sure to steal even more from us.

I feel like the common Muslim on the street has had enough. We are not extremists like ISIS, but we demand respect like any other human being does. For all that we do, we get looked down upon, and our religious beliefs get trashed by city dwelling liberals that don't even give a shit about their own parents.

This might not be the case in your country, but it is in mine. Can you give me some advice, effendi?

No! Can you give me some advice regarding this brother?

Currently i'm very occupied but i can give short summary. The exact same problem was pervasive in Turkish societyup until the late 1990s. Muslim Anatolians were ill represented in the bureaucracy and in politics. There were several reasons behind this. When Turks beat the occupiers in the War of Independence in 1923 and established our own Republic, the Republican elite, the Kemalists, opted for a radical departure from the Ottoman definition of statehood and nationalsim. The Kemalist elite was convinced that Western civilizaition was far advanced due to their definition of state and secular systems. These were heavily incorporated in the Turkish Republic's Anayasa/Constitution. Islam was almost forcefully removed from the state affairs and the emphasis relied around Westernizing/Modernizing Turkey along European lines.

Ultimately the Kemalists were right in some of their assumptions. The contemporary interpretation of Islam during the last centuries of the Ottoman Empire had crippled progress and denied the advancement of science and education. But they were wrong in their reforms, in that they forcefully attempted a social engineering of the Anatolian Village dweller, who as you say, constitute the backbone of Turkey. This kept the conservative forces out of the political process because Kemalist politicians insisted Islamic movements would eventually ruin the Republic as it had ruined the Empire. In a way the conservative ovewhelming majority had become the peripheri and the Kemalist elite had become the "center" minority for decades following Ataturk's death. It turned out, after all, that the reforms, intended to transform the Anatolian landscape into a progressive society, on par with the Western civilization failed, because the values of Anatolian Muslim Turks are ingraved deeply in our identity, this culture cannot be erased because some elitists are certain those same values constitute our backwardness.

The 1990s saw the resurface of strong Islamic political forces that came to dominate the political landscape from the early 2000s and still rule Turkey. Ironically, the emergence of these forces were brought about due to Kemalistic insistence on education for all, regardless of social or political background. It can be said they succeeded in bringing about conscious citizenry, but failed in transforming this citizenry into model European citizens. With the emergence of AKP, the central Anatolian cities showed immense economic growth, which came to be termed The Anatolian Tiger economies. Including my hometown Kayseri. And now most of our bureacracy and politics consist mostly of the old "villagers"
I hope this is clear enough.

I personally take the following from this. Social engineering attempted at bettering your citizenry and economy is good. Interpreting Islam as the only variable for backwardness is bad. True progress means incorporating and internalizing scientific and social progress in conjunction with the traditional values. Traditional values, including religion, won't necessarily act as obstacle to these goals, quite contrary it will boost your coherency and nationalism once you comprehend how it acts as the binding glue to your society

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Currently i'm very occupied but i can give short summary. The exact same problem was pervasive in Turkish societyup until the late 1990s. Muslim Anatolians were ill represented in the bureaucracy and in politics. There were several reasons behind this. When Turks beat the occupiers in the War of Independence in 1923 and established our own Republic, the Republican elite, the Kemalists, opted for a radical departure from the Ottoman definition of statehood and nationalsim. The Kemalist elite was convinced that Western civilizaition was far advanced due to their definition of state and secular systems. These were heavily incorporated in the Turkish Republic's Anayasa/Constitution. Islam was almost forcefully removed from the state affairs and the emphasis relied around Westernizing/Modernizing Turkey along European lines.

Ultimately the Kemalists were right in some of their assumptions. The contemporary interpretation of Islam during the last centuries of the Ottoman Empire had crippled progress and denied the advancement of science and education. But they were wrong in their reforms, in that they forcefully attempted a social engineering of the Anatolian Village dweller, who as you say, constitute the backbone of Turkey. This kept the conservative forces out of the political process because Kemalist politicians insisted Islamic movements would eventually ruin the Republic as it had ruined the Empire. In a way the conservative ovewhelming majority had become the peripheri and the Kemalist elite had become the "center" minority for decades following Ataturk's death. It turned out, after all, that the reforms, intended to transform the Anatolian landscape into a progressive society, on par with the Western civilization failed, because the values of Anatolian Muslim Turks are ingraved deeply in our identity, this culture cannot be erased because some elitists are certain those same values constitute our backwardness.

The 1990s saw the resurface of strong Islamic political forces that came to dominate the political landscape from the early 2000s and still rule Turkey. Ironically, the emergence of these forces were brought about due to Kemalistic insistence on education for all, regardless of social or political background. It can be said they succeeded in bringing about conscious citizenry, but failed in transforming this citizenry into model European citizens. With the emergence of AKP, the central Anatolian cities showed immense economic growth, which came to be termed The Anatolian Tiger economies. Including my hometown Kayseri. And now most of our bureacracy and politics consist mostly of the old "villagers"
I hope this is clear enough.

I personally take the following from this. Social engineering attempted at bettering your citizenry and economy is good. Interpreting Islam as the only variable for backwardness is bad. True progress means incorporating and internalizing scientific and social progress in conjunction with the traditional values. Traditional values, including religion, won't necessarily act as obstacle to these goals, quite contrary it will boost your coherency and nationalism once you comprehend how it acts as the binding glue to your society

You my brother are a diamond. Thanks for providing me with so much knowledge. I love you. I will pray for you and your mother and family when I do taraweeh. Thank you so much. Turkey Pakistan Zindabad!

Actually, your post is so informative it should be recorded, If I can be honest with you.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What percentage of your population thinks like Lastofthepatriots ?

I can't give you percentages as there are differant shades of grey so it is difficult to quantify. However they are and I say this with absolute regret, the majority. Thankfully their influence on levers of power is not total otherwise Pakistan would have gone to the dogs like Afghanistan.

They are the cause why Pakistan is in the condition it is in. They and their blabbering nonsense. They can fool you guy's but I know what they are. You guy's think they are like religious Turks along the lines of @Zulkarneyn. They are not. They are believers in mish mash of superstition, defeatism, retardness and some aspects of ritual Islam mixed with strong dose of extreme politics. It is anything but Islam as you understand it.The final product is just narrow minded bigotry lacking any reason or logic.

You saw that how @lastofthepatriots made assumptions about hookers, not taking care of parents, wearing suits and shaving. In this guy's book the founder of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah was the biggest ba*stard. He shaved. He wore suit. He kept dogs. He was educated in the West.

@Zulkarneyn

Question for you. If you were asked the simple question "Who are you"? Which of these would you choose. Please pick only one option.

(i) Turk
(ii) Muslim
(iii) Male
(iv) Anatolian
(v) Don't know