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Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

Should Pakistan upgrade its Mirages to South African Cheetah standard if not Beyond?

  • Yes

    Votes: 181 59.0%
  • No

    Votes: 126 41.0%

  • Total voters
    307
Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.

Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.
Unfortunately, Saab doesn't own the engine and flight control technology.

China can cover every end of the chain, and it can do it today -- so the PAF can get a project rolling in earnest in the next 7-10 years. We should definitely diversify, but we should partner with states in areas that they're already doing well in: e.g., air-to-air/air-to-surface weapons tech with South Africa, ships and helicopters with Turkey, engines with Ukraine, airliners with Brazil, armour design with Poland, etc. But for aerospace, I'd say China is the best partner.
 
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Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.

Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.
Yep, South Korea and Turkey also take that way to develop their KF-X and TF-X.

And Pakistan can choose many western components that PAF loves, as it is impossible for J-XX project in China.

The J-31 is an unsuitable design for air superiority.
PLAN needs a carrier-based fighter jet that can fight against F-35C, while PLAAF needs a new one that is different from J-20.
And what about PAF?
 
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Yep, South Korea and Turkey also take that way to develop their KF-X and TF-X.

And Pakistan can choose many western components that PAF loves, as it is impossible for J-XX project in China.


PLAN needs a carrier-based fighter jet that can fight against F-35C, while PLAAF needs a new one that is different from J-20.
And what about PAF?
The PAF wants a twin-engine design with super-cruising and enough upgrade room/future-proofing to one day carry directed energy weapons. IMO I don't think the PAF cares too much about maneuverability (should be good, but not the defining feature). The main goals are stealth, range and payload.
 
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The J-31 is an unsuitable design for air superiority.
Could you kindly elaborate as I am unaware of the technical basis for your statement. Seiously this is for my learning and I want to see what you have to say.

A
 
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The PAF wants a twin-engine design with super-cruising and enough upgrade room/future-proofing to one day carry directed energy weapons. IMO I don't think the PAF cares too much about maneuverability (should be good, but not the defining feature). The main goals are stealth, range and payload.

Sir with development of anti stealth tech PAF should also keep focus on maneuverability and defensive capabilities. Pakistan has got Chinese radar YJ27 as well as Vera sensors perhaps.
 
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The only 1 thing which PAF did not achieve is reverse engineering of the Mirage III/V engine.
 
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The only 1 thing which PAF did not achieve is reverse engineering of the Mirage III/V engine.
Brother, reverse engineering is easier said than done

As an example, a small high pressure fuel injector (similar to what we are using in the IC engines of our cars) is also used in the combustion chamber of a jet engine. This small single injector itself is a sub assembly of different components and many such sub assemblies combine to form the whole engine.

So, when we talk of reverse engineering, we are talking about recreating all the thousands of parts involved, each and every one of them, because Snecma for sure is not going to give it for obvious reasons.

Recreating thousands of parts means, recreating their drawings first which could have tolerances in 0.001mm ranges. One no-go part means, the others wouldn't fit.

The production of so many individual parts is bloody expensive due to the absense of industry of scale. So the EU and US mainly try to commonize parts used in different industries and products to reduce their costs. Similarly, R&D costs are commonized across products. Like a dual-use oil pump, fuel pump, HP injectors, HP fuel lines etc etc.

For a poor country like us, it doesnt make any sense. Even Sweden is just an integrator of Gripens. Apart from their core competencies, they outsource it all from the EU and US.

There is a reason the chinese who are the best in reverse engineering stuff are still facing problems going forward with their jet engines.
 
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Pakistan's ability to build "new components and structures" for the Mirage is rather overblown. if they could, they would have made the wings brand new in Pakistan, rather buying 2nd hand used wings with questionable history from third parties and putting them onto the Mirages.. that is why I think PAC is not as mature in manufacturing of structures of the Mirage. Doing repairs, and replacements, yes.. building new.. no..
Yes it is overblown. This is where i have lamented there were so many opportunities to streamline a supply chain/TOT with atlas - it was just ignored.

Upgrading Mirages is what PAF have stuck with due to various factors, they never wanted to keep them that long, if they did then South Africa was able to provide required tech to rebuild them with zero airframe life.

Also India is upgrading Tejas to Medium category bird with structure changes which I think PAF also look into for JFT if they don't want off the shelf new fighter from abroad.

At the end PAF need a 4.++ Gen fighter to complement it's FGFA.



Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.

Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.

Correction - just wings were provided that were zero hours but no airframes. IFRs, radio comms/links were also passed ; same IFRs then show up in JF-17s
 
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The only 1 thing which PAF did not achieve is reverse engineering of the Mirage III/V engine.

Pakistan could have bought the blue print from France for Mirage V or Mirage 4000 but PAF were and still is obsessed with F-16s.
 
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