Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[nomi007]

Not Karoon but close to it. 60 billon dollars were stolen under the nose of establishment.
Was army sleeping with the enemy?

May be all of them were involved?

 

[jupiter2007]

May be all of them were involved?

it has to be since not even a leaf moves in Pakistan without the consent of Army.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Forget about JF-17s, looks like these mirages are the most top secret a/c of the PAF...

Nobody would know for sure what "surprises" they can deliver...

 

[jupiter2007]

yes sir i agree but they are at end of thier service . it will be stupidity to make this 60 years old plane clones

Indian LCA is pretty much copy of Mirage F-1

 

[FuturePAF]

Indian LCA is pretty much copy of Mirage F-1

More like a re-engined and smaller Mirage 2000. They would have been better off just buying the production line from France in the 80's and doing what Turkey did with the F-16, or at least did a joint venture as Pakistan is doing. The Indian's couldn't swallow their pride, and want to do it all indigenously.

 

[CT-9914 "Snoop"]

@denel and I had a good discussion on the same idea of fitting a Russian Rd-33/Rd-93 engine on the mirage and giving these birds new capabilities with upgrades. At the end of the day, he convinced me that the costs of upgrade a very old airframe with all the risks in doing so, for. Marginally better aircraft are not worth it. It’s better we just increase the rate of production of the JF-17 and try to retire these Mirages as soon as we can. In the mean time a radar and avionics upgrade would be the most we should do to get there most out of these aircraft.

IMHO, if all of the JF-17s Block I and II get an Aesa Upgrade; their radars can be put into the least upgraded mirages for a decent upgrade with minimal cost. Jf-17 avionics could also be added to these planes for commonality of parts to also keep costs down, and we could then use all the weapons available to the JF-17 on the Mirages.

If at all possible, we should be trying to procure more used F-16s as they are Able to carry a heavier payload then the JF-17 and have a longer service life. Should the F-16 option not be available, we need to hold tight for a few years till the economy picks up to crank up the production of JF-17 till we reach 250-300 total JF-17, so that we can retire the Mirages and F-7PGs, in a model similar to Sweden that operates only their own Gripen for all their needs. We just need to keep the focus on making the JF-17 the best possible jet for the PAF, planning for a Block 4 by mid-decade; with IOC a few years after.

Honestly, it all comes down to the economy and diplomacy.

btw, I mention Denel because his company in South Africa did a similar upgrade and that aircraft is at a museum in South Africa. The South African Air Force didn’t upgrade their Mirages to the level of a new engine and just stuck with more modest upgrades. Eventually they retired those upgraded Mirages and bought the Gripen. So it’s very similar to the needs and situation of the PAF.

If you would like to see the plane, here it is: air frame 847

https://flic.kr/p/23128378372

https://www.airteamimages.com/atlas-cheetah_847_south-africa---air-force_135784.html

"The performance increase offered by the Russian engine was impressive, but a combination of budget cuts and problems with the aircraft's centre of gravity contributed to the program's termination"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Cheetah

The major deficiency of a Mirage III/5 is the limited range and thrust/weight ratio. A new, more efficient engine - preferably one derived from the RD-33 to keep commonality with JF-17's, and possible re-manufacture of the airframe with composite lightweight materials and/or new wings to increase fuel-carrying capacity, similar to the Cheetah-E might solve those but it comes down to whether or not a need arises for a ground-attack platform in the same class and whether acquiring an off the shelf platform would be more economically viable. Why South Africa went ahead with Cheetah and why we went with ROSE had to do more with difficulties acquiring a better replacement than with the Mirage being an upgrade friendly platform.

 

[FuturePAF]

The major deficiency of a Mirage III/5 is the limited range and thrust/weight ratio. A new, more efficient engine - preferably one derived from the RD-33 to keep commonality with JF-17's, and possible re-manufacture of the airframe with composite lightweight materials and/or new wings to increase fuel-carrying capacity, similar to the Cheetah-E might solve those but it comes down to whether or not a need arises for a ground-attack platform in the same class and whether acquiring an off the shelf platform would be more economically viable. Why South Africa went ahead with Cheetah and why we went with ROSE had to do more with difficulties acquiring a better replacement than with the Mirage being an upgrade friendly platform.

The problems that arise from re-engine-ing the mirages have been well documented. Adding composite materials might be less of a problem, but the costs may not make it worth. At best the current Atar-9 Engine can be refurbished and modifications made to upgrade the thrust, but beyond that, its best to stick to just upgrading the avionics and radar to get the most impact.

Upgrading the Block I and II JF-17s with an AESA radar allows its older KLJ-7 radars to be re-purposed to the best fly worth air frames that have not gotten a Grifo Radar upgrade as part of a Rose Upgrade.

We have to remember, anything we do on the Mirages are only a stop-gap measure until we have enough JF-17s or can hopefully get more used or new F-16s.

 

[jupiter2007]

The problems that arise from re-engine-ing the mirages have been well documented. Adding composite materials might be less of a problem, but the costs may not make it worth. At best the current Atar-9 Engine can be refurbished and modifications made to upgrade the thrust, but beyond that, its best to stick to just upgrading the avionics and radar to get the most impact.

Upgrading the Block I and II JF-17s with an AESA radar allows its older KLJ-7 radars to be re-purposed to the best fly worth air frames that have not gotten a Grifo Radar upgrade as part of a Rose Upgrade.

We have to remember, anything we do on the Mirages are only a stop-gap measure until we have enough JF-17s or can hopefully get more used or new F-16s.

The way situation is constantly changing in Middle East, we don’t know if and when we will be able to get used F-16s. Will Trump going to be Impeached? Does Democrats have enough votes in senate to impeach him?
As we all know JF-17 block3 production will be limited due to external orders. We have close to 180 older planes which will have to be replaced by JF-17 or with something else. We just purchased older Mirage frames from Egypt which mean will keep 30+ Mirage in service for another 10 years.

That is sad reality that we didn’t work with South Africa to build new frame for mirage instead of refurbishing old frames.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

hopefully get more used or new F-16s.

US is not even giving us AH 1Zs even though we had paid for them

 

[jupiter2007]

US is not even giving us AH 1Zs even though we had paid for them

Pentagon (deep state) wanted to release them but begharat Trump put them on hold.

 

[GriffinsRule]

US is not even giving us AH 1Zs even though we had paid for them

When did we pay for them?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

When did we pay for them?

According to @HRK 950 million dollars have been paid

 

[khanasifm]

Please take your off topic discussion to its proper thread

Thank you [emoji120]

 

[denel]

The major deficiency of a Mirage III/5 is the limited range and thrust/weight ratio. A new, more efficient engine - preferably one derived from the RD-33 to keep commonality with JF-17's, and possible re-manufacture of the airframe with composite lightweight materials and/or new wings to increase fuel-carrying capacity, similar to the Cheetah-E might solve those but it comes down to whether or not a need arises for a ground-attack platform in the same class and whether acquiring an off the shelf platform would be more economically viable. Why South Africa went ahead with Cheetah and why we went with ROSE had to do more with difficulties acquiring a better replacement than with the Mirage being an upgrade friendly platform.

Actually in our case; it was a stop gap measure to acquire most current at the time airframe which could compete against Mig-23/29s which were on our doorsteps. Lavi was in the works as well and a parallel Craver program. Not many know it but Lavi models and wind tunnel tests were done at Atlas.

 

[HRK]

According to @HRK 950 million dollars have been paid

- I mentioned only the contract price as mention in the letter to US congress by Obama Administration
- Rule Out the possibility of Grant and/or US funding ....
- I never mention the mode of payment as it is not clear till to date ...