Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[SipahSalar]

One shape or another, Project Azm's goal (FGFA) will happen. In the absence of upgrades or access to new versions, the F-16's role as the PAF's top jet is in its final chapter, and the PAF has made it a key priority to get a next gen ITAR free successor.

Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.

 

[Quwa]

I think the design will be ours as we want a single engine variant but the engine and avionics will be the same(either chinese or turkish).

The PAF CAS said Azm will be twin engine.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

The PAF CAS said Azm will be twin engine.

OK I didn't knew that.

 

[Quwa]

Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.

It depends on what you're trying to build.

Japan was probably looking for F-35 like capabilities from the start, which would've made their project very expensive.

The PAF might take a staged approach where the first variants of the Azm will be very basic, e.g., get an AESA radar with twin engines and more payload in the air. And from there develop further by adding DEWs or supercruise, etc.

Plus, the PAF will probably not take LO seriously in the beginning either.

 

[araz]

Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.

Japan has a choice. We dont! I will go out on a limb and say we are a potential adversary for the whole world so they would not want to arm us. The chinese have their own troubles with the Uighurs so may want to be cautious. Plus we are their cash cow so why would they want us to be independent. So we have to and we will by hook and crook. The example of Turkey is a good one if you want to guage the world stance against a muslim country. Why do you think they are going down that line.
A

 

[Deltadart]

Getting back to the main topic of mirages. I think we must think along the lines of kfir block 60, and with south african help, come up with a plane that can take on what India is expected to throw out there in a decade or so. Keep working on azm and jf17, but please don't neglect the mirage development.

 

[jamal18]

Getting back to the main topic of mirages. I think we must think along the lines of kfir block 60, and with south african help, come up with a planes that can take on what India is expected to throw out there in a decade or so. Keep working on azm and jf17, but please don't neglect the mirage development.

Do we need South African help? This is the one project in which we can safely say that we have full design and build capability. Plus hiring 'foreign experts' is the path of increasing costs; our labour force is far cheaper, and everything can be financed in rupees.

 

[Deltadart]

Do we need South African help? This is the one project in which we can safely say that we have full design and build capability. Plus hiring 'foreign experts' is the path of increasing costs; our labour force is far cheaper, and everything can be financed in rupees.

Jamal, as long as we don't reinvent the wheel, we should go alone, but SA has tons of experience working on mirages and we can surely benefit from them.

 

[Quwa]

Japan has a choice. We dont! I will go out on a limb and say we are a potential adversary for the whole world so they would not want to arm us. The chinese have their own troubles with the Uighurs so may want to be cautious. Plus we are their cash cow so why would they want us to be independent. So we have to and we will by hook and crook. The example of Turkey is a good one if you want to guage the world stance against a muslim country. Why do you think they are going down that line.
A

Yep, it's a case of desperation and, in a way, long term thinking. The PAF is saying, "we can't rely on anyone in 10 years." Ironically this was the same line of thought that drove the nuclear weapons program -- we stopped believing in friends after 1971. That said, there are other countries around the world that understand where we're coming from, e.g. South Africa, Ukraine, etc.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

What's the possibility of Upgrading all Mirage jets with Turkish Avionics?
They have a wonderful local program, we could request some custom Kits for Mirage

To my understanding, if Computer System in Mirage fleet is upgraded it would also mean an upgrade on radar , turkish systems are compatible with

 

[denel]

Do we need South African help? This is the one project in which we can safely say that we have full design and build capability. Plus hiring 'foreign experts' is the path of increasing costs; our labour force is far cheaper, and everything can be financed in rupees.

Jamal - where did you think IFRs, H2/H4+ integrations, Raad derivation amongst countless other goodies came from without South African involvement. We are not like others.
Yes labour force is cheap but how can you quantify the fact that MRF is incapable of building basic new wings or even a clone of the airframe given they have stripped down the M3/5 countless times.
What Atlas brings to the table is complete Cheetah blueprints and turnkey know how to chart the path forward.
We always make a plan... the biggest question is will you make a plan?

Edit: HMD/S is integral part of Cheetah and of course Darter will be easily available.

 

[mingle]

What's the possibility of Upgrading all Mirage jets with Turkish Avionics?
They have a wonderful local program, we could request some custom Kits for Mirage

To my understanding, if Computer System in Mirage fleet is upgraded it would also mean an upgrade on radar , turkish systems are compatible with

Mirages are too old now plus we have program with SEGAM making things local with theior help

 

[GriffinsRule]

It depends on what you're trying to build.

Japan was probably looking for F-35 like capabilities from the start, which would've made their project very expensive.

The PAF might take a staged approach where the first variants of the Azm will be very basic, e.g., get an AESA radar with twin engines and more payload in the air. And from there develop further by adding DEWs or supercruise, etc.

Plus, the PAF will probably not take LO seriously in the beginning either.

I disagree with you there totally. The hallmark of a NGF (5th gen) that AZM is envisioning is the LO feature. Without that, its just building a 4th gen aircraft, which we already will have in the shape of JF-17. Thing like supercruise, its ability to direct UAVs, manage the battle space for 4th gen fighters etc ... all those features can be added in as upgrades, but getting the fundamental right is the game, and that is a low observable airframe, designed so it can handle future upgrades. We already see an learning curves with the Chinese designs, and they have made mistakes in J-10 and even JF-17, for eg. both had intakes design changed, and in terms of JF-17s, the proportions are changing again. Thus the hardest part is designing the airframe right and modular enough to accommodate new technologies as well as engines etc. We can expect that jet to be in service for 30-40 years or more.

Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.

As for the Japanese, though its not related to this thread, Ill add it here to just correct the narrative. The program is not cancelled and Japan is going to be building its stealth fighter to replace their F-2s (F-16 knockoffs). The X-2 (ATD-X) was just a technology demonstrator and used to test new materials and designs. Take a look at the timelines of this jet and we can extrapolate what our program or the Turkish one for that matter will take to complete.
https://www.janes.com/article/86159/japan-prioritises-locally-developed-future-fighter

The F-3 performance requirements are to be finalized by 2020 and development to officially begin in 2021 with 2030 as a target! That is after they started with the X-2 business in 2006! AZM ETA will be 2035-2040 so plenty of time for an interim fighters (F-16s cough cough)

Jamal - where did you think IFRs, H2/H4+ integrations, Raad derivation amongst countless other goodies came from without South African involvement. We are not like others.
Yes labour force is cheap but how can you quantify the fact that MRF is incapable of building basic new wings or even a clone of the airframe given they have stripped down the M3/5 countless times.
What Atlas brings to the table is complete Cheetah blueprints and turnkey know how to chart the path forward.
We always make a plan... the biggest question is will you make a plan?

Edit: HMD/S is integral part of Cheetah and of course Darter will be easily available.

It has been over a decade since Atlas Cheetah was taken out of service and people retire, forget or move on to other aircraft. So the expertise might not be as widely available in the future. But again, if the idea is to manufacture a 60s-70s design, might as well go for the Mirage F-1, which was better in almost every term over the Mirage 3/5s

 

[Signalian]

Only F-16 is capable of fighting them off and i hope JFTBLK3.

Yups, those are the thorns for IAF's Rafale/SU 30/M2K/Mig-29..... You said it yourself

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well the reason why I referred the Turkish system is that these are pretty much European standard at least up to F16 C/D level avionics features

Would make sense if we can manufacture 99% of Mirage plane, might as well upgrade the Avionics package on the 130-150 units

a) Turkish Avionics Package
b) European Radar which is compatible with the Avionics package

If you upgrade the flight computers , pretty much you have made a massive update on Jets