Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Mirages are beautiful machines indeed. If Pakistan is to make newly built Mirages, then they would need to incorporate newer gen technology as well, such as FBW and canards (akin to the NG concept).

The issue however we run into is one of economies of scale. Building 60 odd fighters or something is not a viable option for Pakistan (assuming we can actually build the entire airframe without support from Dassault). Hence it is sticking with overhauling what it has. Rebuilding the airframe will take a lot of time and resources, which I think would be better spent on a tried and tested Thunder now.

Indeed, but if the infrastructure to do it is still in-tact in South Africa, then economies-of-scale might not be as much of a constraint. As long as the cost to re-start those facilities is reasonable, the program is doable. For the PAF, the benefit would be 3~5 squadrons of SOW-carrying platforms.

 

[denel]

So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?

Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?

No vision or desire - bad leadership; just leave status quo remain is no longer an option.

 

[ziaulislam]

So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?

Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?

PAF thinks that they have enough spares to run 2-3 squadrons till 2030(60ish)
these squadrons rule will be to fly and drop the air launch raad and may be cluster ammunition for which the are more than capable

the money that would be spent on this project is suppose to go to jf17s and project AZM.. jf17 though might not be dedicated bomber like mirage V but is much more advance and versatile

when it comes to raad, i doubt this is the conventional weapon for PAF, i think it is simply a strategic weapon..PAF is in hurry to add this to JF17 for which probably a newer advance version is being made..while REK will be the main stay for jf17

though i ma curious about h4 will it be added to jf17(meaning confirmation will be seen)

Mirages are beautiful machines indeed. If Pakistan is to make newly built Mirages, then they would need to incorporate newer gen technology as well, such as FBW and canards (akin to the NG concept).

The issue however we run into is one of economies of scale. Building 60 odd fighters or something is not a viable option for Pakistan (assuming we can actually build the entire airframe without support from Dassault). Hence it is sticking with overhauling what it has. Rebuilding the airframe will take a lot of time and resources, which I think would be better spent on a tried and tested Thunder now.

Indeed, but if the infrastructure to do it is still in-tact in South Africa, then economies-of-scale might not be as much of a constraint. As long as the cost to re-start those facilities is reasonable, the program is doable. For the PAF, the benefit would be 3~5 squadrons of SOW-carrying platforms.

what would be interesting is that if PAF does decide to do this..cost wise and logistics...will an updated mirage 5 with rd93 and flyby wire be better a choice or j10 kind of off the shelf jet

 

[Path-Finder]

I believe that the experience and expertise PAF has with rebuilding and repair like we have seen across many platforms is going to keep the necessary numbers of mirage in use.

As for expanding the fleet? My guess is that the future will be all missile based delivery. But who knows.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
My 2 cents for all to comment.


I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.

We can use Rd93ma engine and chinese avionics with klj7a radar and irst.

 

[Adam_Khan]

Which book is that from? Thanks!

It's from this book,there was another incident of fratricide during 1971 war when Wing Commander Saad Hatmi shot down his wingman with a sidewinder who sadly died,you can read about this incident in Kaiser Tufail's book on 1971 war.

 

[denel]

We can use Rd93ma engine and chinese avionics with klj7a radar and irst.

Friend, we noted using the engine as a POC; this has already been done. The rest, i dont think is required as this is solely a deep strike/sOW platform.

 

[Armchair]

FYI it looks like the Israelis are offering the Kfir NG with a 'zero-timed' airframe, AESA radar, GE F414 turbofan engine, and -- depending on end-user requirements -- new-build airframes.

With the current Kfir Block 60 that the FAC operates featuring a 'zero-timed' airframe, system, sensor, avionics (comparable with the F-16 Block 52), and weapon enhancements, the Kfir NG adds a more powerful General Electric (GE) F414 engine (as already powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen E/F) in place of the outdated GE J79; an enhanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improvements to the datalinks; and upgraded avionics. Another feature that is still in development is a redesigned aft-fuselage that will increase the aircraft fuel capacity. According to Melamed, this should double the Kfir's endurance.

The Kfir NG could be based on remanufactured FAC airframes, surplus Israeli Air Force airframes, or could even be new-build depending on the requirements. Melamed declined to put a timeline on the Colombian offer.​

https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service
​

The idea of re-manufacturing and upgrading the Mirage 3/5s is seeming increasingly tenable, but this can't be an internal PAF or PAC project. With the JF-17 and Project Azm, there are too few resources available. Rather, the PAF ought to look at external contractors to carry out the work.

If Denel Aeronautics still has the Cheetah's jigs, then I think this is all doable, though it'll require breaking down whatever mental or planning blocks preventing this from being an option. In fact, given the stakes (potentially a new-build bird with 4+ gen capabilities), they can move slow and start with a pilot project (3-5 planes).

I, for one, fully support the idea of bringing new life into the Mirages if it means gaining 3~5 squadrons of dedicated deep-strike, anti-shipping and strategic/nuclear attack assets.

@denel @Armchair @Deltadart

If we keep it simple, remanufactured airframe with rd93 engine, the cost should be reasonable. 5 squadrons of strikers at a bargain basement cost, that can fly lower than most aircraft out there. With rd93 you would have range to hit Indias soft belly in the southern cost.
Add conformal fuel tanks... That would be a mean and cheap bird

 

[Sine Nomine]

Friend, we noted using the engine as a POC; this has already been done. The rest, i dont think is required as this is solely a deep strike/sOW platform.

Reproduction would help it strike more deep.

 

[jamal18]

If we keep it simple, remanufactured airframe with rd93 engine, the cost should be reasonable. 5 squadrons of strikers at a bargain basement cost, that can fly lower than most aircraft out there. With rd93 you would have range to hit Indias soft belly in the southern cost.
Add conformal fuel tanks... That would be a mean and cheap bird

Yes. the essential is to keep the cost low. If the cost increases then the arguement will be, ' why build a new Mirage when, with a few more dollars, you can build a new jf-17?'

 

[ziaulislam]

We can use Rd93ma engine and chinese avionics with klj7a radar and irst.

Thing is south asia is changing rapidly ..india is aggressively changing its posture from focusing on internal development to external issues ..modi isnt going any where and war is all but imminent ...

36 more rafales are on horizon..can PAF wait just for block3 and ignore long range strike platform ?

 

[denel]

Yes. the essential is to keep the cost low. If the cost increases then the arguement will be, ' why build a new Mirage when, with a few more dollars, you can build a new jf-17?'

the question is that of how much newer airframes for deep strike cost and entire maintenance vs reworking the M3/5 into a new bird. Think of it long term not short term. It is inhouse and you will have the complete know how and screw any sanctions and be independent long run.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Thing is south asia is changing rapidly ..india is aggressively changing its posture from focusing on internal development to external issues ..modi isnt going any where and war is all but imminent ...

36 more rafales are on horizon..can PAF wait just for block3 and ignore long range strike platform ?

Block 3 is on the horizon. Any long range strike Pakistan tries to develop or buy will easily be 4-5 years in starting to get the deliveries for. They you can add another year or two on actually learning the jet and developing tactics around it. Hence Block III makes the most sense.

 

[ziaulislam]

Block 3 is on the horizon. Any long range strike Pakistan tries to develop or buy will easily be 4-5 years in starting to get the deliveries for. They you can add another year or two on actually learning the jet and developing tactics around it. Hence Block III makes the most sense.

i think it would really depends what block 3 is?
if there is a weak point in chain today it is the airforce that india would exploit..feb was a miscalculation but all hands are on deck to correct that problem hence the go ahead for
1. additional 36 rafales
2. stream line both the upgrades for mirage and 270 su30, additional orders for mig29,su30,
3. fast pacing the LCA while cancelling the darin 3

clearly shows india isnt going to waste any time...

i expect another batch of rafales order after these 72 aircraft while the MRCA will be scratched and numbers will be made up with LCA..we are looking at a very good (and expensive) electronic suit for LCA..problem most of the above will be accomplished by 2025

to counter all of this with 50-60 block 3 till 2024 is not going to work...
nationalism is india will lead to short war very soon...

 

[GriffinsRule]

i think it would really depends what block 3 is?
if there is a weak point in chain today it is the airforce that india would exploit..feb was a miscalculation but all hands are on deck to correct that problem hence the go ahead for
1. additional 36 rafales
2. stream line both the upgrades for mirage and 270 su30, additional orders for mig29,su30,
3. fast pacing the LCA while cancelling the darin 3

clearly shows india isnt going to waste any time...

i expect another batch of rafales order after these 72 aircraft while the MRCA will be scratched and numbers will be made up with LCA..we are looking at a very good (and expensive) electronic suit for LCA..problem most of the above will be accomplished by 2025

to counter all of this with 50-60 block 3 till 2024 is not going to work...
nationalism is india will lead to short war very soon...

They have not started the upgrade program for the Su-30s so definitely not going to be in place by 2025. If they buy additional 36 Rafales, their capex for further upgrades will be even lower so its not an immediate threat.
LCA might be a decent aircraft and a threat to Pakistan but not in its current form, regardless of how advanced it might be. Its still in FOC and clearly IAF is not impressed with it enough to order it in its current version. Mark 1A is not finalized either and no money has been allocated for the purchase of the batch of 83 either. Given their slow production rate, it is probably not a threat for PAF in the short term. It also shows that despite it being in "squadron service" for quite some time, it is not based anywhere near Pakistani border. They still seem to have more faith in the Mig-21bis, which is saying a lot. Could also be that they don't want it getting shot down by JF-17 as it would certainly for all intents and purposes kill the LCA program