Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

View attachment 580423

The Mirages flown by PAF professionals are a class of their own. The pictures of these vintage machines still mesmerise our odd souls.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Talking about this.

View attachment 580412 Talking about this.

Which book is that from? Thanks!

 

[Deltadart]

Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
My 2 cents for all to comment.


I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.

Sir, you keep making a lot of sense. But PAF is always content with the birds they get from the OEM and hardly ever take a daring risk to improve them.
We should start manufacturing M3/M5 derivative and take it to the level of other 4+ generation fighters out there. Combine that with the latest electronics, new engine, new composite materials, and there you have a partner for jf17. The project azm will nicely complement them.

 

[GriffinsRule]

AAM over Somiani. Pilot error and it was a seasoned Wing Commander.

Was this Wing Cmdr Faisal Mumtaz Rao?

 

[Sine Nomine]

Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).

Remember we discussed this not long time ago,built new Airframes using RD-93 engines and rest everything fully over hauled from Mirages.
Egyption purchase and events of 27th tell us that M3/5 are going to stay for another 1 or 2 decades.
Our Mirages are already on par with M2000 in terms of A2G Strike capability(thanks to S.A)minus A2A.
RD-93 is turbofan engine fitting it into M3/5 airframes would make a great strike fighter.
Considering following points:-
-M3/5 carries almost 3300 L of internal fuel.
-09C is larger and heavier than 93,replacing it would provide more space and weight reduction.

09C L/D/W

• Length: 232 in

• Diameter: 39 in

• Dry weight: 1,456 kg

RD-33 L/D/W

• Length: 166.50 in

• Diameter: 40.94 in

• Dry weight: 1,055 kg

-93 consumes low fuel as compared to 09C,In longer run cost of fuel would be a factor.

09C Fuel Consumption

• 103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power

• 207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner

RD-33 fuel consumption
75 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) dry, 188 kg/(kN·h) (1.85 lb/(lbf·h))​

-This space can be used for fuel cells or new avionics modules.
-New engine with higher thrust and low fuel consumption would increase combat radius and weapon load.
-In longer run fuel guzzling 09C would be gone,which would free up logistics,reduction in fuel bills and we can go ahead with complete MRO for Rd-93.
We can go ahead and follow atlas "cheetah" path by:-

• Installation of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes.
• Two additional stores pylons at the wing roots.
• An aerial refuelling probe like on JFT.
• A new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons controlled by a twin computer-based flight control system, and strakes on the nose to improve the high-Angle of attack (AoA) performance.(Copied from Atlas Cheetah page)

Construction of Airframe from same material that has been used in JFT construction and getting parts jigs from S.A along with experts would ease this project more.

 

[ziaulislam]

Talking about this.

View attachment 580412 Talking about this.

wow
i hope they were lectured correctly

 

[GriffinsRule]

Remember we discussed this not long time ago,built new Airframes using RD-93 engines and rest everything fully over hauled from Mirages.
Egyption purchase and events of 27th tell us that M3/5 are going to stay for another 1 or 2 decades.
Our Mirages are already on par with M2000 in terms of A2G Strike capability(thanks to S.A)minus A2A.
RD-93 is turbofan engine fitting it into M3/5 airframes would make a great strike fighter.
Considering following points:-
-M3/5 carries almost 3300 L of internal fuel.
-09C is larger and heavier than 93,replacing it would provide more space and weight reduction.

09C L/D/W

• Length: 232 in

• Diameter: 39 in

• Dry weight: 1,456 kg

RD-33 L/D/W

• Length: 166.50 in

• Diameter: 40.94 in

• Dry weight: 1,055 kg

-93 consumes low fuel as compared to 09C,In longer run cost of fuel would be a factor.

09C Fuel Consumption

• 103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power

• 207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner

RD-33 fuel consumption
75 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) dry, 188 kg/(kN·h) (1.85 lb/(lbf·h))​

-This space can be used for fuel cells or new avionics modules.
-New engine with higher thrust and low fuel consumption would increase combat radius and weapon load.
-In longer run fuel guzzling 09C would be gone,which would free up logistics,reduction in fuel bills and we can go ahead with complete MRO for Rd-93.
We can go ahead and follow atlas "cheetah" path by:-

• Installation of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes.
• Two additional stores pylons at the wing roots.
• An aerial refuelling probe like on JFT.
• A new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons controlled by a twin computer-based flight control system, and strakes on the nose to improve the high-Angle of attack (AoA) performance.(Copied from Atlas Cheetah page)

Construction of Airframe from same material that has been used in JFT construction and getting parts jigs from S.A along with experts would ease this project more.

I had floated this idea a couple of times as well but if we are to go by evidence on the ground, Pakistan lacks the capability to build new airframes. Even the wings, which would be a much simpler undertaking, and that we repair and patch up quite often are not built from scratch. If Kamra could have done it, they would not have gone hunting for wings in SA and Spain etc.

One other point is of course costs. A newly built Mirage would cost a lot more money, that could be better spent on JF-17s and AZM.

 

[Dazzler]

Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
My 2 cents for all to comment.


I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.

Oh yes, farmer was/is my love. What a sight it was to see it roaring every day of my childhood.

OTOH, i like how PA and SA have been working on so many projects with both maintaining a gung ho about it. Its always good to work in pin drop silence.

 

[Sine Nomine]

One other point is of course costs. A newly built Mirage would cost a lot more money, that could be better spent on JF-17s and AZM.

Down the road the amount we are spending on their upgrades would go in bin.My estimate is around 6 million per AC,of which major cost is that of power plant.

Pakistan lacks the capability to build new airframes. Even the wings, which would be a much simpler undertaking, and that we repair and patch up quite often are not built from scratch. If Kamra could have done it, they would not have gone hunting for wings in SA and Spain etc.

We are manufacturing JFT's and have been rebuilding Mirages,F-7 and F-6.
We did build a SAAB-2000 from it's destroyed airframe,we also have built air-intake of a F-16 which was destroyed and LM said it isn't airworty.
Please think again in light of above mentioned points about our capability to build new airframes.
We buy parts from outside becase it's cheap,in these states who have retired these fighters,these parts are not worth anything,they sell us cheap.

 

[Armchair]

One could do it bit by bit. Using 3D printing it would be even easier. With each overhaul you remanufacture the weakest link parts. Then next overhaul you remanufacture the next batch of weakest link parts.
3D printing has come a long way and is used by many countries to build out of manufacture parts. I met a USAF technician who did that for the USAF and it involves of a lot of mathematics and model building. Experienced tech can look at a part and do the math for building the 3D model. Then all you do is press the print button.

More recently you can simply scan a part and the computer will model it for you...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

FYI it looks like the Israelis are offering the Kfir NG with a 'zero-timed' airframe, AESA radar, GE F414 turbofan engine, and -- depending on end-user requirements -- new-build airframes.

With the current Kfir Block 60 that the FAC operates featuring a 'zero-timed' airframe, system, sensor, avionics (comparable with the F-16 Block 52), and weapon enhancements, the Kfir NG adds a more powerful General Electric (GE) F414 engine (as already powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen E/F) in place of the outdated GE J79; an enhanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improvements to the datalinks; and upgraded avionics. Another feature that is still in development is a redesigned aft-fuselage that will increase the aircraft fuel capacity. According to Melamed, this should double the Kfir's endurance.

The Kfir NG could be based on remanufactured FAC airframes, surplus Israeli Air Force airframes, or could even be new-build depending on the requirements. Melamed declined to put a timeline on the Colombian offer.​

https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service
​

The idea of re-manufacturing and upgrading the Mirage 3/5s is seeming increasingly tenable, but this can't be an internal PAF or PAC project. With the JF-17 and Project Azm, there are too few resources available. Rather, the PAF ought to look at external contractors to carry out the work.

If Denel Aeronautics still has the Cheetah's jigs, then I think this is all doable, though it'll require breaking down whatever mental or planning blocks preventing this from being an option. In fact, given the stakes (potentially a new-build bird with 4+ gen capabilities), they can move slow and start with a pilot project (3-5 planes).

I, for one, fully support the idea of bringing new life into the Mirages if it means gaining 3~5 squadrons of dedicated deep-strike, anti-shipping and strategic/nuclear attack assets.

@denel @Armchair @Deltadart

 

[denel]

One could do it bit by bit. Using 3D printing it would be even easier. With each overhaul you remanufacture the weakest link parts. Then next overhaul you remanufacture the next batch of weakest link parts.
3D printing has come a long way and is used by many countries to build out of manufacture parts. I met a USAF technician who did that for the USAF and it involves of a lot of mathematics and model building. Experienced tech can look at a part and do the math for building the 3D model. Then all you do is press the print button.

More recently you can simply scan a part and the computer will model it for you...

No no, 3D does not give the strength required.

FYI it looks like the Israelis are offering the Kfir NG with a 'zero-timed' airframe, AESA radar, GE F414 turbofan engine, and -- depending on end-user requirements -- new-build airframes.

With the current Kfir Block 60 that the FAC operates featuring a 'zero-timed' airframe, system, sensor, avionics (comparable with the F-16 Block 52), and weapon enhancements, the Kfir NG adds a more powerful General Electric (GE) F414 engine (as already powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen E/F) in place of the outdated GE J79; an enhanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improvements to the datalinks; and upgraded avionics. Another feature that is still in development is a redesigned aft-fuselage that will increase the aircraft fuel capacity. According to Melamed, this should double the Kfir's endurance.

The Kfir NG could be based on remanufactured FAC airframes, surplus Israeli Air Force airframes, or could even be new-build depending on the requirements. Melamed declined to put a timeline on the Colombian offer.​

https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service
​

The idea of re-manufacturing and upgrading the Mirage 3/5s is seeming increasingly tenable, but this can't be an internal PAF or PAC project. With the JF-17 and Project Azm, there are too few resources available. Rather, the PAF ought to look at external contractors to carry out the work.

If Denel Aeronautics still has the Cheetah's jigs, then I think this is all doable, though it'll require breaking down whatever mental or planning blocks preventing this from being an option. In fact, given the stakes (potentially a new-build bird with 4+ gen capabilities), they can move slow and start with a pilot project (3-5 planes).

I, for one, fully support the idea of bringing new life into the Mirages if it means gaining 3~5 squadrons of dedicated deep-strike, anti-shipping and strategic/nuclear attack assets.

@denel @Armchair @Deltadart

Absolutely, Cheetah jigs are still there - specifically for after sales support for remaining Cheetahs. It is doable and the blueprints are still there. I am onboard to get these M3/5s into a new class Shaheen - A slow turnrate will get these birds into a new lease of life as a new entity. One should keep RD33 option as a POC to demostrate what it will bring.
But know how Pak leadership has been and vested interests, they fail to think out of the box even on this one. I hope I am proven wrong.

Oh yes, farmer was/is my love. What a sight it was to see it roaring every day of my childhood.

OTOH, i like how PA and SA have been working on so many projects with both maintaining a gung ho about it. Its always good to work in pin drop silence.

Yes. Dont laugh - that was the motto of our EW unit - Silence

By now our rebuid and new construction facilities are so extensive that I cannot understand why we cannot build new frames and major parts ourselves. It should be entirely within our abilities to have a 'cheetah' style project. Sure, it won't be a 5th generation aircraft, and you may not get many internationa buyers, but the payback for what would be a minor investment would be significant.

Correct - they have been penny wise pound foolish all along. Time needs to change and that time is now.

Sir, you keep making a lot of sense. But PAF is always content with the birds they get from the OEM and hardly ever take a daring risk to improve them.
We should start manufacturing M3/M5 derivative and take it to the level of other 4+ generation fighters out there. Combine that with the latest electronics, new engine, new composite materials, and there you have a partner for jf17. The project azm will nicely complement them.

Absolutely, with Cheetah blueprints, jigs - everything is there, just a matter of having the vision. Given the dependency on M3/5, these are not going to go away no matter what; why not move it to next generation. Everything is there.

Remember we discussed this not long time ago,built new Airframes using RD-93 engines and rest everything fully over hauled from Mirages.
Egyption purchase and events of 27th tell us that M3/5 are going to stay for another 1 or 2 decades.
Our Mirages are already on par with M2000 in terms of A2G Strike capability(thanks to S.A)minus A2A.
RD-93 is turbofan engine fitting it into M3/5 airframes would make a great strike fighter.
Considering following points:-
-M3/5 carries almost 3300 L of internal fuel.
-09C is larger and heavier than 93,replacing it would provide more space and weight reduction.

09C L/D/W

• Length: 232 in

• Diameter: 39 in

• Dry weight: 1,456 kg

RD-33 L/D/W

• Length: 166.50 in

• Diameter: 40.94 in

• Dry weight: 1,055 kg

-93 consumes low fuel as compared to 09C,In longer run cost of fuel would be a factor.

09C Fuel Consumption

• 103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power

• 207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner

RD-33 fuel consumption
75 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) dry, 188 kg/(kN·h) (1.85 lb/(lbf·h))​

-This space can be used for fuel cells or new avionics modules.
-New engine with higher thrust and low fuel consumption would increase combat radius and weapon load.
-In longer run fuel guzzling 09C would be gone,which would free up logistics,reduction in fuel bills and we can go ahead with complete MRO for Rd-93.
We can go ahead and follow atlas "cheetah" path by:-

• Installation of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes.
• Two additional stores pylons at the wing roots.
• An aerial refuelling probe like on JFT.
• A new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons controlled by a twin computer-based flight control system, and strakes on the nose to improve the high-Angle of attack (AoA) performance.(Copied from Atlas Cheetah page)

Construction of Airframe from same material that has been used in JFT construction and getting parts jigs from S.A along with experts would ease this project more.

You have made the perfect case for ROI for Shaheen project!.

 

[Avicenna]

No no, 3D does not give the strength required.


Absolutely, Cheetah jigs are still there - specifically for after sales support for remaining Cheetahs. It is doable and the blueprints are still there. I am onboard to get these M3/5s into a new class Shaheen - A slow turnrate will get these birds into a new lease of life as a new entity. One should keep RD33 option as a POC to demostrate what it will bring.
But know how Pak leadership has been and vested interests, they fail to think out of the box even on this one. I hope I am proven wrong.


Yes. Dont laugh - that was the motto of our EW unit - Silence


Correct - they have been penny wise pound foolish all along. Time needs to change and that time is now.


Absolutely, with Cheetah blueprints, jigs - everything is there, just a matter of having the vision. Given the dependency on M3/5, these are not going to go away no matter what; why not move it to next generation. Everything is there.


You have made the perfect case for ROI for Shaheen project!.

So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?

Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?

 

[Deltadart]

So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?

Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?

The government must force PAF and the defense establishment to make it a reality. Find a way to fund it.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Mirages are beautiful machines indeed. If Pakistan is to make newly built Mirages, then they would need to incorporate newer gen technology as well, such as FBW and canards (akin to the NG concept).

The issue however we run into is one of economies of scale. Building 60 odd fighters or something is not a viable option for Pakistan (assuming we can actually build the entire airframe without support from Dassault). Hence it is sticking with overhauling what it has. Rebuilding the airframe will take a lot of time and resources, which I think would be better spent on a tried and tested Thunder now.