Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[MystryMan]

Even thunder can launch cm400 akg... even a squadron of jf7 with all the integration training and weapon system will not be less than 600 to 700 million dollars. Kindly do note that a squadron is nothing .. for a little longer war you can run just one sortie per aircraft per day at max. And by that much sortie how much area could have been covered? While i agree that a dedicated heavy aircraft will change the attack dynamics but right now oñ the priority table defence of EEZ and protection of sea line of communication was far more important... now with the given projects of milgem type 54, herbah, f22P upgradation, 8 AIP submarines and upgrdaed Agusta PN suerly need the final peice of the puzzle i.e. a tool of heavy strike ... but i think it will take atleast half a decade to start anoth naval procurement ...

Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began.

Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.

Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.

The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.

 

[MastanKhan]

Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began.

Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.

Talk about your vision---you only found out that the Paf offiers were corrupt when a near and dear one close to you supposedly admitted---that is how blind you were---and that was possibly when you were in your 30's maybe---and you claim experties---.

Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.

The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.

Hi,

Look at america---it has turned a 50's technology---the B52 into a modern strike wonder---it has built a 60's technology the C130 into a GUNSHIP that no one else has---.

You want to find your true enemies---they are amongst you---right in front of your faces---.

A few years ago---these same enemies convinced you not to send military to the GCC---amazing how they sabotage pakistan---and how you all fall for it---.

Paf for its strike role is dependent on 60's technology M3 /%'s---and your enemies within don't even want to notice that---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.

The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.

Yea but the PAF has the Mirage 3/5 already. It's a 60s design that's fully integrated into the ops, training, logistics, and maintenance. Perhaps one option is to find an external contractor willing to rebuild the Mirage 3/5s and, in turn, tailor them into dedicated SOW assets.

 

[GriffinsRule]

He keeps giving B-52 as an example. Its like comparing watermelon to an apple. Conveniently forgets about other aircraft that USAF has seemingly retired and for good reason. F-111 for example would be a jet more or less in line with the mission similar to JH-7, except better in every regard. Americans did not keep that jet in service even though it was a highly effective all-weather interdiction aircraft with stellar safety record and on the forefront in its EW grab as well.
Despite being a great platform, its role as a strike aircraft was taken up by a better all-round jet, the F-15E. Yet here we have people asking the PAF to go backwards in inducting a one trick pony that even its manufacturers are getting rid of, just for some seemingly short-term advantage that it wouldn't really provide in actuality. Here I would also add that even if bought tomorrow, the aircraft won't be fully operational for another 18-24 months at least. So if war is "around the corner", working with what you have first is the best option. Utilizing weapons in an innovative way to surprise the enemy is probably more effective than buying a platform for a very specific mission that will be expected and countered easily.

 

[TsAr]

@The Eagle @mods why are we even discussing JH-7 in mirage thread when we have a dedicated thread for JH-7 already there?

 

[MastanKhan]

@The Eagle @mods why are we even discussing JH-7 in mirage thread when we have a dedicated thread for JH-7 already there?

Hi,

What difference does it make to you in the first place.

You have only posted 3.5 posts per month since inception---. So what is your issue---if you may clarify---???

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began.

Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.

What about J 10C. Is it suited to us?

 

[The Eagle]

Hi,

What difference does it make to you in the first place.

You have only posted 3.5 posts per month since inception---. So what is your issue---if you may clarify---???

The issue may remain due to our interest to read on particular subject irrespective of post count.

Regards,

 

[MastanKhan]

The issue may remain due to our interest to read on particular subject irrespective of post count.

Regards,

Since when do those people have become important who have never participated on the forum---?

What about J 10C. Is it suited to us?

Hi,

Mirage F1 was not suitable---Mirage 2000 was not suitable---Rafale was not suitable---JH7A was not suitable---J10C is not suitable---timely purchase of F16 after 9/11 was not suitable either.

Now---can you understand how a nation's defense needs can be sabotaged from the inside---.

 

[The Accountant]

Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.

The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.

There is a hell of s difference ... mirrages are 50 years but are being retired. They are long obsolete and are being kept ooerative by canabilizing the previous one.

Do you know time and cost of inducting a new aircraft?

It will cost atleast 500 million dollars just to integrate and test and atleast 5 years to train and induct.

Is it worth while on an obsolete design?

It is not comparable to mirrages which we are ooerating since decades

Hi,

Off course thunder can launch the CM400---no doubt about it---but the issue is different---.

To get within the launch range would be very difficult---once you get in there---then you need a higher percentage of launch---.

What if your target is locked---you push the button and that one missile does not launch---.

What if you launch one missile and that one missile gets intercepted---for that reason---you need a 2 missile carrier---that increases your chance of strike---.

Again i say there is no dispute about need of a heavy strike naval fighter. The question is about priority. Our naval assets were not even capable of defending themselves. We need to recognize the fact that a strike aircraft cant replace a frigate as frigate keep on defending the area 25/7 whereas aircraft is there for a few minutes only and having this weakness our enemy could have destroyed our naval weapon system within hours. Thanks to recent efforts we will have a decent fleet by 2025 capable of defending sea line of communication.

Now in the air, priority is air defence in which we are outnumbered and soon to become out gunned too with arrival of rafael and meteor.

Now i think next priority will be our air superriority fighter either by upgrading f16s or by having a squadron or 2 of some other highly advanced fighter.

Only after setting this we can move towards getting a heavy strike naval fighter. Its more buying the food for survival first and getting supplements to be strong next.

However i think we should improvise by aquiring 5th generation tech and introduce a net centric war concept where our naval servillance assets such as p3c orion, tankers and other fleet could be equipped with long range land attack and antiship missiles that can be targetted using coordinates from attack aircrafts such as thunder mirrages and f16s...

This can be the most cost effective solution. We can have an impact of bomb truck with the agility of a fighter and this will have multiploer effect as well ...

The need is to get out of the box solutions as we can't beat india in tech and weaponary as they have 5 times higher budgets..

 

[MystryMan]

There is a hell of s difference ... mirrages are 50 years but are being retired. They are long obsolete and are being kept ooerative by canabilizing the previous one.

Do you know time and cost of inducting a new aircraft?

It will cost atleast 500 million dollars just to integrate and test and atleast 5 years to train and induct.

Is it worth while on an obsolete design?

It is not comparable to mirrages which we are ooerating since decades


Again i say there is no dispute about need of a heavy strike naval fighter. The question is about priority. Our naval assets were not even capable of defending themselves. We need to recognize the fact that a strike aircraft cant replace a frigate as frigate keep on defending the area 25/7 whereas aircraft is there for a few minutes only and having this weakness our enemy could have destroyed our naval weapon system within hours. Thanks to recent efforts we will have a decent fleet by 2025 capable of defending sea line of communication.

Now in the air, priority is air defence in which we are outnumbered and soon to become out gunned too with arrival of rafael and meteor.

Now i think next priority will be our air superriority fighter either by upgrading f16s or by having a squadron or 2 of some other highly advanced fighter.

Only after setting this we can move towards getting a heavy strike naval fighter. Its more buying the food for survival first and getting supplements to be strong next.

However i think we should improvise by aquiring 5th generation tech and introduce a net centric war concept where our naval servillance assets such as p3c orion, tankers and other fleet could be equipped with long range land attack and antiship missiles that can be targetted using coordinates from attack aircrafts such as thunder mirrages and f16s...

This can be the most cost effective solution. We can have an impact of bomb truck with the agility of a fighter and this will have multiploer effect as well ...

The need is to get out of the box solutions as we can't beat india in tech and weaponary as they have 5 times higher budgets..

I'm no expert thats why I said J-10 or JH-7 because we also need numbers. Air force is the most important component in modern warfare, u can have best army or Navy but it needs air cover to fight.

 

[MastanKhan]

There is a hell of s difference ... mirrages are 50 years but are being retired. They are long obsolete and are being kept ooerative by canabilizing the previous one.

Do you know time and cost of inducting a new aircraft?

It will cost atleast 500 million dollars just to integrate and test and atleast 5 years to train and induct.

Is it worth while on an obsolete design?

It is not comparable to mirrages which we are ooerating since decade

Hi,

It won't take long---the aircraft is already integrated---. It already has an operational manual---. We use same weapons from the same manufacturer under similar terms and conditions---.

As it is a strike aircraft---it won't take long to integrate---. Within 6 months you have a very well functioning unit and within a year a well oiled machine---.

We need an aircraft than can carry 2 heavy AShM's---a 5th gen can't do that---.

 

[The Accountant]

Hi,

It won't take long---the aircraft is already integrated---. It already has an operational manual---. We use same weapons from the same manufacturer under similar terms and conditions---.

As it is a strike aircraft---it won't take long to integrate---. Within 6 months you have a very well functioning unit and within a year a well oiled machine---.

We need an aircraft than can carry 2 heavy AShM's---a 5th gen can't do that---.

Here I would humbly disagree. I dont consider an aircraft upgraded unless it is integrated to command and control infrastructure along with link 17 and jh7a having radar and avionics different therefore it will take significant time and only after that trainnig will begin. By looking at the past history i think just the contract negotiation and delivery will take atleast a year even if we start on fast track basis today.

Plus I feel today priority is upgradation of air superiroity fighter. F16s cant compete meteor and rafael combo and they are coming this year and will take max 2 years to get fully capable deployment.

If I had money and decision making power I will go for Viper (block 70) or Typhoon to counter Rafael otherwise PAF will be on same status as we were during kargil war i.e. retreat

 

[Basel]

USAF B52s fly as they have air superiority/dominance, which PAF will not have in an Indo-Pak war.

The problem is with the JH-7A, not in its availability. And your scenario is so simple, it is not even worth mentioning in the context of justifying PAF/PN buying it. It will be easily detected at very long ranges over the ocean by IAF early warning radars and AEW aircraft and duly intercepted by their Su-30s and Rafales. Even if it turns back in time to avoid being shot down, it will be a failed mission anyways.

PS, I was surprised to read your comments on how cheap this aircraft is to procure even if we lose them easily in war, while completely ignoring how much more expensive those two pilots riding in thing would be. We all should also know that flyaway costs are only a small portion of what it would mean to induct, maintain and fly this junk for another 30 years. Basically a glorified enlarged Mig-21 with terrible build quality.

Also, where and when did the PAF or anyone ever state that Rafale was not worth it? I am curious. Similarly, how can you even imply the same comments were made of the F-7PG when PAF was the first importer of the type and was really excited by its performance from the get go when trialed in China?

You still need a competent person behind the machine to fully utilize it. Technology, while has made some tasks easier and workload less (when concerning basic flying, situational awareness etc) has not made flying easier and pilots nowadays have to work with loads of new data and threats as well as complex scenarios and similarly advanced threats to contend with. So the man behind the machine absolutely matters.

Problem at PDF is that non professional people think they know note then professional working in our military, I had discussed JH-7A with PAF and PN people and both said its an obsolete aircraft even with latest upgrade, they have thoroughly tested it.

Intriguing point you have raised. Do you know what the RCS of a JH-7A is btw or you are just making a generalization based on size? Is it's RCS more than an Su-30MKI?

Kindly tell me how much runway it will need with full load and what RCS will it have??

Please enlighten us.

These are pretty good at low level flight. That is a help. It's lower level ride performance is much better than our Mirages. Especially for the naval scenario, these would be a great added punch against enemy fleet. The JH-7AII will also be sporting a good ELINT/EW suite.

These need not stay too long inside enemy air space. But they could launch SOWs from further inside enemy territory than our Mirages (which are not optimized for low level flight).

If Chinese EW is that good then why JFT have Western EW system??

China is not on par with west now in EW system and our enemy have money and access to have western EW system.

Even thunder can launch cm400 akg... even a squadron of jf7 with all the integration training and weapon system will not be less than 600 to 700 million dollars. Kindly do note that a squadron is nothing .. for a little longer war you can run just one sortie per aircraft per day at max. And by that much sortie how much area could have been covered? While i agree that a dedicated heavy aircraft will change the attack dynamics but right now oñ the priority table defence of EEZ and protection of sea line of communication was far more important... now with the given projects of milgem type 54, herbah, f22P upgradation, 8 AIP submarines and upgrdaed Agusta PN suerly need the final peice of the puzzle i.e. a tool of heavy strike ... but i think it will take atleast half a decade to start anoth naval procurement ...

If Pakistan had money then PAF may have gone for Su-30/35 for PN support role. J-11 was preferred over JH-7.

Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.

The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.

J-10C is much better option over JH-7 version.

Yea but the PAF has the Mirage 3/5 already. It's a 60s design that's fully integrated into the ops, training, logistics, and maintenance. Perhaps one option is to find an external contractor willing to rebuild the Mirage 3/5s and, in turn, tailor them into dedicated SOW assets.

It can be done with SA help, a M-3/5 block-60 can be made if required and there is will just like Israeli Kfirs.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/kfir-jet/

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

It won't take long---the aircraft is already integrated---. It already has an operational manual---. We use same weapons from the same manufacturer under similar terms and conditions---.

As it is a strike aircraft---it won't take long to integrate---. Within 6 months you have a very well functioning unit and within a year a well oiled machine---.

We need an aircraft than can carry 2 heavy AShM's---a 5th gen can't do that---.

F35 does..i assume others will as well