Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[denel]

I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any!
The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
A

i would argue they need to see past blk3 to blk4 as well. Blk3 is mid-cycle maturity; i would suggest there are at least 3 more to follow thereafter.

 

[denel]

I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any!
The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
A

absolutely. my concern is as follows. if M3/5 continue to be around for a strategic avenue for next 15yrs - then why not take into account a move towards cheetah plus also get 9k50 engines instead if 9c;atlas had the licence manufacturing rights to it as well.

The other option which people will start to shout at me - would be getting newer airframes from IAI.

 

[The Accountant]

absolutely. my concern is as follows. if M3/5 continue to be around for a strategic avenue for next 15yrs - then why not take into account a move towards cheetah plus also get 9k50 engines instead if 9c;atlas had the licence manufacturing rights to it as well.

The other option which people will start to shout at me - would be getting newer airframes from IAI.

I dont think mirrage 3/5 are going to stay for 15 years ... strike by thunders on feb 27th prooved that thunder r good strike fighters ... i think a delivery mechanisim must be under developed around thunder to be used for strategic role ...

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

i would argue they need to see past blk3 to blk4 as well. Blk3 is mid-cycle maturity; i would suggest there are at least 3 more to follow thereafter.

i would argue they need to see past blk3 to blk4 as well. Blk3 is mid-cycle maturity; i would suggest there are at least 3 more to follow thereafter.

Block IV shud be final. Concentration shud be given on 5th gen

 

[denel]

Block IV shud be final. Concentration shud be given on 5th gen

Nope; you are not seeing that this will be around for next 30 yrs. you need to continue to evolve. There is a lot of room. 5th gen is a hype in my opinion; the bread and butter will remain jf-17s.

 

[SipahSalar]

Block 3 with AESA and HOBS. Block 4 with new engine and conformal fuel tanks.

 

[MIRauf]

denel is right, if AZM is high end project then 4.5 Gen need to exist till 6th Gen gets incorporated. In this regards the JF-17 will have to evolve and continue to evolve until the point where cost of JF-17 and 5 Gen is relatively close.

If JF-17 follows same path as JAS-39 then expect to see slightly redefined main body to incorporate better load management on main fuselage. Waiting on AVIC/PAC to copy the JAS-39 NG weapon pylons.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Please kindly give me credit for bring this up almost a 1 1/2 decade ago when every pakistani fanboy was clueless to what integration and getting a pilot used to an aircraft means---. I am the originator of this information to the pakistanis who believed that their pilot could jump into an aircraft and run circles against the enemy---.

Next----

The british equipment is one of the worst when it comes to quality and longevity---I don't think that you knew that either---.

3rd thing---if worked out properly---the chinese equipment could be had on a soft loan / forgiven loan---.

Next---the aesa radar that you could get for the JH7A would be a massive machine---.

Basically---there is no other aircraft in the industry---that pakistan can get what the JH7A can do---.

A missile truck JH7A with about 8 PL15 riding point alongwith 3 JH7A's with 2 CM400AKG's each or with 2 ALCM Baburs each---hooked up with a massive 1500TR module aesa radar and with the support of the awacs flying low over the ocean---popping up at the last minute and un-leashing all the ALCM's at the target from a safer distance and then turning tail---.

Any interceptors would face the LR PL15's---.

What india fears the most is a long range heavy strike aircraft in the Paf's arsenal that can fly low and target indian coastal belt and naval flotilla---.

If Paf gets the JH7A's---indian navy would get a heart attack---. The strength and power of its large naval frigates would be diminished---. They would be at the mercy of the LR AShM missiles---and the ship's missiles would not reach out to the pakistan aircraft---.

First Point
I was quoting Oscar's specific estimation, but indeed you have brought up similar views, and I have agreed with you on them. Yes, you should be credited with advocating the merits on the JH-7A, if not the originator of the view (I will take your word on in), a vocal proponent nonetheless.

Second Point
You are correct, I am not as familiar with the maintenance record of British origin aircraft. The reason I argued for the Tornado was the potential availability of the air frames, at potentially affordable acquisition prices, with modern capabilities, and in a short period of time, presuming the PAF pilots have years of experience on them. I know that's a lot of IFs, hence the caveat that the PAF should study the Tornados for their suitability per their experience with it, if any. Another HUGE caveat is the supply of weapons to arms said Tornados. Without access to smart munitions, these planes would be nothing more than fancy iron bombs platforms.

Therefore at the end of my post, I advocated either the J-10Ce which can carry 8000kg or the JH-7A which can carry 6500kg per Deagel.com

Third Point
Yes, on the acquisition of the JH-7A, it can be done with a lot more flexibility. Not only in terms of the financing but the equipment, and the variety of munitions it can carry. Upgrading the Design, engines, and avionics can all be done if we are requesting a 1500 T/R AESA radar, to match those of the Tornado, and finally scrap the Mirages. We could also buy brand new aircraft that would last 30 years with an increase use of composites and some reshaping to minimize stress on the air frame. You are correct, there is no other aircraft the PAF can acquire with so much potential, at such little cost, from a trusted ally.

Fourth Point
Indeed the JH-7A could change the way India operates in the Arabian Sea, if not at its land bases close to the border and further in land. Tornados regularly flew stable at 600 knots under 100 feet off the deck. The new WS-19 engines, if they could super-cruise; could potentially push that record and then some. Delhi is less than 400 km from the border. A supersonic flyover alone, on the deck, would rattle the Indians to their bones, akin to the psychological effect of the Osirak raid near Baghdad.

Only Caveat
For as good as the JH-7A is; it is still primarily designed as a strike platform. We need to acquire the J-10CE in equal numbers to provide adequate escort protection, for long range missions. (We can no longer trust on the F-16, and the JF-17 for all its accolades, is a short-legged defensive fighter) We need to be able to go offensive if we are to make a paradigm shift in regional dynamics. The PAF can not afford to absorb attacks when the danger is eminent. The PAF needs to think more like the IDF-AF. BUT, this can only be possible once we have secured a stable economy, and these two platforms. I know that's not what you want to hear, but we need to fight the inner demons before we can face the external ones.

I know you were not pleased with the PAF during the February Skirmish, but not getting derailed in rebuilding the Economy was a more important requirement, so that long term we are able to properly defend ourselves.

Hats off to you Sir. I hope the PAF takes your advice and goes for the JH-7A (as well as the J-10CE).

I noticed 3 points regarding PAF:
1. PAF is not buying old generation (4 or less) second hand aircraft's which are not flown already in inventory (e.g Mirage 2000, JH-7)
2. PAF is buying aircrafts which it also had once brand new decades ago (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)
3. PAF is increasing numbers of older aircrafts in inventory (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)

The 1st point makes me think that PAF will induct a newer aircraft(4.5 gen or 5 gen) as an addition to its inventory. Lastly there is no mention of J-10 acquisition by PAF officials probably because JF-17 Block III comes close to it in some factors while other factors are covered by F-16.

In the short term, acquiring types the PAF operates buys them more time with a type they have already sunk pilot training, infrastructure, maintenance, and all other kinds of familiarity, but long term, once the economic crisis passes, they need to recapitalize the force with capabilities adequate enough to meet the threat.

The threat is not only conventional but political. Pakistan's ties with the west could change on a whim, and that is not a long term solution to a constant threat from India. Hence acquiring more F-16s, unless for free or nearly free are not worth it, as PAF decided when it had the choice. The same goes for the Mirage. The PAF knows what it wants if it had the budget. The military needs to help root out any corruption preventing the nation from getting its economy back on track, the enemies within are worse then those on the outside.

The Block III is great in all capabilities, but is limited by short range, a limited payload, and generally smaller sensors. the doctrine dictates the platforms we need, and the PAF needs to think more Offensive if its to change the regional dynamics, and had an adequate defense going forwards. the Enemy is getting bolder, and need to know the PAF can counter them conventionally.

Hence the need to get the J-10CE, and help modernize and acquire the JH-7A; at least 68 aircraft each (4 full squadrons each), along with the last 50 JF-17 Block IIIs would allow the PAF to retire most of the Mirages and most of the F-7s. We would need to still field the last remnants of the Mirages and F-7s, if we intent to keep our numbers up, retiring them once we induct Project AZM/5th Gen Fighter. Hence the modest upgrades of the youngest Mirage air-frames would allow the force to have modern capabilities at all levels. Maybe 50 Mirages, and 30 twin seat F-7PGs for Pilot training.

An Order of battle by 2030 would be as follows:
76 F-16s
68 JH-7A (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
68 J-10CE (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
149 JF-17 (Last Three Squadrons of JF-17s could be build and operational by 2024)
and the last 80 Mirages and F-7s to be replaced when we get 5 Squadrons of 5th gen jets
(50 Mirages could be upgraded over the next 3-5 years, and all fully operational by 2024)

Should more F-16s become available, we could scale back Mirage upgrades and speed up retirement of the F-7s, and if even more F-16s come in retire the mirages all together.
We need to get 4 Squadrons of J-10CEs and 4 Squadrons of JH-7As.

P.S. When Upgrading the JH-7A Design; studying the research on future medium supersonic bombers will have to be looked at, so that what we field in the mid 2020s is still potent by 2050. Pakistan could work with the Chinese on a "Medium Range Semi-Stealthy Tactical Bomber"; a replacement for the JH-7A. Powered by two Ws-19 Engines; If we are looking for 60-80 Aircraft, and the Chinese plan to replace their JH-7/Jh-7A fleet of 270; a 350 aircraft program could get top priority and be fielded by middle of the next decade; especially that the WS-19 engines are showing progress.

From Janes for your contemplation pleasure:
https://www.janes.com/article/85813/china-may-be-developing-first-two-seat-stealth-combat-aircraft

Blend the Knowledge gained from the J-20 with the designs from the American ATF program. Here is one particularly interesting design; similar to the JH-7 and the Tornado; but a delta wing. Considering they will be flying low to the ground or low over the sea; weapons hanging under the wings would not raise the RCS much, even if Awacs aircraft are around.

Source:https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The_General_Dynamics_ATF_proposal/5-1811184/

Wings with this shape would have lower wing loading and therefore a lower stalling speed and allow a better sustained turn performance (to better escape enemy defenses). A wing of this shape would allow the plane to be relatively smaller but still have decent range, and fly-by-wire technology would allow it to fly nap of the earth low level flying to avoid detection. The F-16XL also showed the wing shape made for a smoother ride at low altitude. The F-16Xl failed to secure a production contract because it could not super-cruise, a need to keep its IR signature low. Luckily the WS-19 is under-development, and as the engine for the PLANAF carrier force; super-cruise is a program goal. The Research from the F-16XL, under NASA, showed how to eliminate laminar flow and achieve super-cruise with the engine technology at the time. Hence the validity of this design for the long range strike role was vindicated.

Considering this design came from General Dynamics; this is a stealthier derivative of the F-16XL; which was planned as a deep strike platform. The payload alone speaks for itself.

 

[randomradio]

why not? they dont monopoly on m2k sales.

Any resale of the M2K will obviously require French permission. And you can expect India to pressure France not to go through with the sale to Pak.

 

[Imran Khan]

Any resale of the M2K will obviously require French permission. And you can expect India to pressure France not to go through with the sale to Pak.

as indian pressure as RD-93 ????

 

[randomradio]

An Order of battle by 2030 would be as follows:
76 F-16s
68 JH-7A (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
68 J-10CE (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
149 JF-17 (Last Three Squadrons of JF-17s could be build and operational by 2024)
and the last 80 Mirages and F-7s to be replaced when we get 5 Squadrons of 5th gen jets
(50 Mirages could be upgraded over the next 3-5 years, and all fully operational by 2024)

That's basically 190 jets in a short span of 8 years. That's what the IAF is trying to do within the same time period, 123 Tejas and 72 Rafales. So you're gonna have to allocate a decent budget for that fleet.

as indian pressure as RD-93 ????

The politics behind this sale is very different. India would much rather have the JF-17 powered by an imported RD-93 than a domestically produced WS-13.

The M2K sale would be a much different story. Remember the F-16s?

 

[Imran Khan]

That's basically 190 jets in a short span of 8 years. That's what the IAF is trying to do within the same time period, 123 Tejas and 72 Rafales. So you're gonna have to allocate a decent budget for that fleet.



The politics behind this sale is very different. India would much rather have the JF-17 powered by an imported RD-93 than a domestically produced WS-13.

The M2K sale would be a much different story. Remember the F-16s?

what f-16 ? US stopped CSF and we did not want to pay them . india was only self claiming victory . in fact all CSF projects went down after US stopped CSF .you guys have wired theories . paksitan is free to buy weapons but when its come to AID old used weapons terms are always not good . if paksitan took hard cash and go to france they can buy whatever .

That's basically 190 jets in a short span of 8 years. That's what the IAF is trying to do within the same time period, 123 Tejas and 72 Rafales. So you're gonna have to allocate a decent budget for that fleet.



The politics behind this sale is very different. India would much rather have the JF-17 powered by an imported RD-93 than a domestically produced WS-13.

The M2K sale would be a much different story. Remember the F-16s?

since 2001 MMRCA not a single rafale come to india . since 1984 in last 33 years not a single full squadron of LCA entered service . how can you sure about future 10 years ?

 

[randomradio]

what f-16 ? US stopped CSF and we did not want to pay them . india was only self claiming victory . in fact all CSF projects went down after US stopped CSF .you guys have wired theories . paksitan is free to buy weapons but when its come to AID old used weapons terms are always not good . if paksitan took hard cash and go to france they can buy whatever .

India pressured the withdrawal of using aid to pay for military equipment. The CSF didn't simply dry up on its own.

since 2001 MMRCA not a single rafale come to india . since 1984 in last 33 years not a single full squadron of LCA entered service . how can you sure about future 10 years ?

Development and bureaucracy are unpredictable, but production is predictable.

 

[Imran Khan]

India pressured the withdrawal of using aid to pay for military equipment. The CSF didn't simply dry up on its own.



Development and bureaucracy are unpredictable, but production is predictable.

CSF dry up when Pakistan stop cooperation with USA in Afghanistan after US blamed Pakistan for lost of war and start windrow from afghanistan .indians have wired thoughts craters on moon are also because modi farts .

 

[randomradio]

CSF dry up when Pakistan stop cooperation with USA in Afghanistan after US blamed Pakistan for lost of war and start windrow from afghanistan .indians have wired thoughts craters on moon are also because modi farts .

Whatchu talking about? Pakistan continued to receive quite a bit through aid, including new hardware. Only F-16s took a hit. The US has started cutting aid only since last year, whereas the F-16 story is from 2016.

Nevertheless, India can stop M2K supplies to Pak. France and India have recently upgraded their defence cooperation after all, because France wants Indian help in protecting their overseas territories in IOR and the Pacific.