Betrayed, Arabized

[pakistanmyblood]

muse if you want to be a Bharati please go back to New Dehli or Assam or tamilnadu or wherever you came from. Pakistan is a Muslim land with 97% strong believers Alhamdulillah. Please take your BS to Bharat as weve had enough of your BS

 

[fd24]

Hi Muse i normally look at your posts and find most of them written with logic and intelligence and i normally appreciate them. However reading your posts on this thread i find it not becoming of your normal high standards. I object you repetitively mentioning the 27th and **** in the same sentance and generally belittling everyones opinions. You are entitled to yours and we to ours. If they dont agree with your ideology then there is no need for you to get annoyed in your posts.
I think you are isolated on this thread and with respect i agree with Omar and the rest.

 

[Safriz]

i wont come up with specific aayah as it wont do much good...
also i am no aalim.

but i speak what i beleive myself...
no faith..no Quran...simple as that...wont benifit in any language...
may be thats why we have 5 pillars? first one being faith.

but just for the sake of it i will ask an scolar about it and might post sometime later..

 

[DADU]

You're actually praising God for not looking Indian. Your racism knows no bounds.

And I just did a quick wikipedia search. Jinnah is a Gujarati Muslim. That means he doesn't fit your definition of Pakistanis?

And about Punjabi being Pakistani, again wikipedia to the rescue.

"In total, Pakistan has 88 million Punjabi's, and India has 55 million Punjabi's. In greater Punjab there are 143 million Punjabi's."

Almost 50-50 division of Punjabis between India and Pakistan. What makes Punjabis exclusively Pakistani? In Malaysia, tell people, you're Punjabi and people will call you Indian (We got some Sikhs here).

Your logic is flawed as heck. The truth, Pakistan was created for Islam. A land where Muslims of India could call their own. Not some racist theory of superior race that you're thinking.

Thanks for reminding us that you are an Indian. Only Indians would ever jump straight to Wikipedia at the 1st sign of trouble. 17% Indian Hindus living in Malaysia, how are they treating you there????

And here you were saying you did not want ot discuss it - so do you want to discuss it??

If yes, then you must answer, if you don't think it should be heaped with blame, how then do you justify that it should be a solution for all problems instead of being about Faith in God? The larger question of course is whether Pakistan can be a integrated state with it's citizens loyalties to a language not spoken in Pakistan, a language that is not even Indo-Iranian or Indo European but an African language what is closer to Hebrew?/

And of course, how can the problem on common culture in Pakistan be solved with the promotion of an aline culture such as that of tribal arabia?

BTW - which is better? to read Quran in a language you understand or in a language you do not?

What an Ignorant and Stupid thread. I honestly thought this was a humble debate on the aspirations of Arab culture in the subcontinent. Until I looked in the comments section
1stly only about 2% of Pakistanis have actuall foreign ancestry such as sayeds. Yes it’s become a phenomena that everybody wants to be an Arab when it comes to Muslims vs Hindus.
But only the lowest of the lowest will go that far… nowadays anybody can claim to be a sayed .

My fore fathers were upper caste Hindus centuries ago my family line directly descends from a Rajput raja that defeated a Turkish army in 1016
Maybe I’m one of those few that never forget their roots and culture even the old culture.
But I’m also proud of being a Muslim and the humble values Islam teaches us which includes learning Arabic because we Muslims know that on day of judgement we will be asked in Arabic ……..
So in context there is no shame in being a proud Rajput, Muslim and Pakistani.
They say knowledge is the power and learning different languages and cultures shouldn’t be a barrier on the road to success.

Yes in the past many leaders have tried to impose extreme Arabic (in your terms) culture by the means of declaring that Pakistanis are arabs or should be like arabs.
However this is a laughable as without us the native people of the soil the arabs , turks and afghans wouldn’t have lasted a second on the battlefield they would have fled like cowards if they didn’t have the support of the native Muslims of the subcontinent.

Due to Arabic and Persian influences pak culture has flourished with language , society and arts . while we accept the different attributes of cultures in the subcontinent.

You Indians especially Hindus think that we are aliens or from some faraway planet , but sonny , we are also the Sons of the Soil and you will never drive us away as the land is our home as much as yours. Interesting that many Indians like the British but not Arabs why because you are afraid of Islam????


Be Proud of who you are no Matter what others say to you, Never look Down on Yourself

 

[President Camacho]

Muse, I hope you realize that you are being dragged into a totally different direction.

At least I feel so.

The article (indeed a great read) that you posted, identifies numerous problems imposed on the Pakistani society by the ruling elites. The same ruling elites (the statesmen), to whom religion means nothing more than a highly potent power tool (just as it was in the medieval times).

At the same time, this article also points to a fundamental problem that the Pakistani society suffers from. You can call it root of all the problems. That root of all the problems is, lack of heritage. But since no one can be conceived without a mother and father, the term 'lack of heritage' doesn't make sense.

But it does, when we notice how this lack of heritage was deliberately imposed on the Pakistani society. In the quest to be not only different from the Hindu India (that had been "enslaved" for a 1000 years by "Arabic invaders"), but also to feel like the conqueror of India, the history was neglected, and somewhat distorted. The distortion of history is more common than appears, but the neglect is what took the toll here.

This complete neglect, and in some cases outright denial of the history, completely robbed the Pakistani society of its rich heritage. To hasten this process, the elites turned it into a war, Religion vs Heritage - A true Muslim can never belong to India, in any possible way. And like Bush said, "Either you are with us, or ...".

Well I am yet to see a Pakistani who can proudly say that his ancestors might have been the dark skinned dwellers of the Indus Valley - One of the most ancient, yet highly advanced civilizations. In fact, many might deny the existence of their ancestors even in Pakistan, before the Islamic Era. Because that way they might end up with a "Hindu blood flowing in their veins".

This war of Religion vs Heritage created an identity crisis in the Pakistani society. People were deemed 'greater' Muslim if they came from the west, and thus began the erasing of 'eastern' heritage. But unlike everything else, heritage cannot be made up. It is the source of one's character. It is inescapable.

As it were to happen, this deliberate invention of a conquest between the heritage and religion resulted in the loss of character of the Pakistani society, which even now, strives to become what it simply is not.

If Pakistanis were to remain what they are - Pakistanis, and not Central Asians or Arabians, then I doubt all this chaos would be there that we see today.

But as I told you in the first line itself, the same thing is happening over and over again. Heritage, or religion - you will be forced to pick... just one!

 

[Safriz]

about the term arabized used in the article..i didnt fully understand...but i guess the author referring to "sunnah".

 

[SQ8]

And here you were saying you did not want to discuss it - so do you want to discuss it??

If yes, then you must answer, if you don't think it should be heaped with blame, how then do you justify that it should be a solution for all problems instead of being about Faith in God? The larger question of course is whether Pakistan can be a integrated state with it's citizens loyalties to a language not spoken in Pakistan, a language that is not even Indo-Iranian or Indo European but an African language what is closer to Hebrew?/

And of course, how can the problem on common culture in Pakistan be solved with the promotion of an aline culture such as that of tribal arabia?

BTW - which is better? to read Quran in a language you understand or in a language you do not?

Tell me.. whose translation will be right muse??
Will it mean the same if done in french by you.. Punjabi by Omer.. Sindhi by someone or Urdu by someone?
From arabic to urdu to english to french to malay to sanskrit..
The whole idea of authenticity goes down the drain then doesnt it.. everybody can make their own Quran.. translate it as they wish..
Maybe in your view its ok for Surah Alaq to be taught entirely in Punjabi??
"Parh.. Parh ve apne Khuda de naal ..."

 

[President Camacho]

i can only shake my head in despair on the stupidity of this article.
Quran is in arabic......geeta .ramayan in sanskirit.torah in hebrwe...none stops a nation from progressing...we as muslims are bound by order to read quran in arabic...and allowed to read translation for better underdtanding....has worked for centuries for billions.
the two faced advocates of modernisation have to blame every shortcoming on religion..specially islam..no matter how far fetched their argument may be..
finding salvation only in religion without working for a better life is non sense.
same way blaming religion for everything that goes wrong and using religion as an escape goat for polical failurescis very dangerous...clouds peoples monds and stops them from finding the real problem.

Not well placed my friend.

There is no obligation to read Ramayan or Geeta in any particular language. Tamilians have been reading it in their own language for over 2000 years. And guess what, Mahabharat (source of Geeta) and Ramayan are placed in history thousands of years before Panini (the developer of Sanskrit) was even born. Sanskrit was simply the popular medium in those times - in those areas.

Value of the texts remains same, whether they are in Sanskrit, Hindi, English, Arabic, or Swahili.

 

[Safriz]

losing the original text and relying on translations alone was the greatest mistake made by christians.
do you know how many versions of bible there are..all claiming to be authentic?

 

[SQ8]

Not well placed my friend.

There is no obligation to read Ramayan or Geeta in any particular language. Tamilians have been reading it in their own language for over 2000 years. And guess what, Mahabharat (source of Geeta) and Ramayan are placed in history thousands of years before Panini (the developer of Sanskrit) was even born. Sanskrit was simply the popular medium in those times - in those areas.

Value of the texts remains same, whether they are in Sanskrit, Hindi, English, Arabic, or Swahili.

And NOTHING is lost when they are translated??
The nuances of one language.. are perfectly overlaid onto the other??

 

[RezRoll]

Thanks for reminding us that you are an Indian. Only Indians would ever jump straight to Wikipedia at the 1st sign of trouble. 17% Indian Hindus living in Malaysia, how are they treating you there????

Anyone who jumps to wikipedia is Indian now? WTF?

And air-head, i recommend you to check wikipedia again before spreading false information about my country. We Muslims make up 70% of the country, Indian descents only make up 6% of our population and it's been on a decline ever since the British imported a bunch of Indians to do some work here in 1800's. Besides few areas, you won't find much Indians here. The Chinese people are quite prominent though, they're the back bone of the economic and make 25% of the population.

And no, unlike you, we don't treat our minorities badly. The Chinese and others have no complaints about being in Malaysia. So get your facts right, clown.

 

[DADU]

But as I told you in the first line itself, the same thing is happening over and over again. Heritage, or religion - you will be forced to pick... just one!

WHAT????? Haven’t you learnt anything in school??????? what did I just say in my last post refer

So in context there is no shame in being a proud Rajput, Muslim and Pakistani.

So in your opinion the Italians shouldn’t refer to the earlier romans as their heritage because they were not Christians?????

The iron age in Britain should not be taught in schools because they were not Christians?????

History books shouldn’t remember the Nazis because they were not religious?????

Either its your heritage or its your religion?????? What are you trying to say?????
I assume you’re a Hindu and thus claim to have both heritage and religion because your ancestors were Hindus and so are you.

Meaning the rest of the world should not look to their past because they have to pick 1?????? But sir let me remind you that Hinduism only really exists in Indian subcontinent outside of this it does not have a large presence.
Whereas Islam is global religion meaning people of different backgrounds, ethnicities and societies all come together under 1 god Allah tallah and his prophets …

We are living in the 21st century much of your religion (no offence) shares similarity with earlier beliefs of the people of Arabia and known world at the time before the arrival of Islam …
Islam shed out all this and your saying either go back or stay on!!!!!
So for example an Arab can’t be a Muslim because in your opinion he only has 1 choice either religion or heritage????

Grow up please; I for 1 am proud of my origins and Islamic faith meaning heritage and religion!!!

I request the mods to close this thread as it has become a hunting ground for trolls

 

[DADU]

Anyone who jumps to wikipedia is Indian now? WTF?

And air-head, i recommend you to check wikipedia again before spreading false information about my country. We Muslims make up 70% of the country, Indian descents only make up 6% of our population and it's been on a decline ever since the British imported a bunch of Indians to do some work here in 1800's. Besides few areas, you won't find much Indians here. The Chinese people are quite prominent though, they're the back bone of the economic and make 25% of the population.

And no, unlike you, we don't treat our minorities badly. The Chinese and others have no complaints about being in Malaysia. So get your facts right, clown.

Yes my mistake I meant 7%, article was long but anyways.

No any 1 who jumps straight to Wikipedia is a bharti (I can tell) no wonder you guys have a huge base there working day and night to distort facts and spread false information that serves your propaganda machine.

Nice try but MAN UP and change your flag just like meuse whos pretending to be a Pakistani.
And no I don’t have a desire to argue with you because you are a professional troll, and I do not worthy the worthless thus you are on the ignored list along with 2 others.

Thats all _ Good day

 

[Leader]

how can one object association with Arabian and Persian culture and influence and then not wonder why white men came here to civilize and christianize the dewellers of the sub-continent ??

and what language does one is speaking right now ? English is very indian indeed

 

[Developereo]

Once again, I find myself taking the middle ground.

It goes without saying that our ancient history is underappreciated in Pakistan. That is something that our education system and popular culture need to revive.

We don't have that issue with 'Indian' (read: south Asian) culture. The popularity of Bollywood attests to the fact that most Pakistanis accept and appreciate the cultural bonds with India. Most people understand that the conflict is political, not racial or cultural.

Now, coming to Arabic and Arabian culture, we need to get away from this mindset that everybody who learns Arabic is a Wahhabi extremist or a terrorist. The fact is that, for Muslims, Arabic is not just another lanugage -- it is the language of the Qur'an, which is God's word. And no translation is ever the same as the original -- all you are reading is the translator's interpretation of God's word. That is why, in Islam, it is enouraged to learn Arabic so that each individual can read God's message firsthand for himself or herself -- without an interpreter's filter.

We need to be vigilant against all extremist ideologies of any kind -- including the Arabian kind -- but let's not get carried away and shun the legitimate parts of Arabian culture which, through Islam, are also part of our heritage.