Betrayed, Arabized

[longbrained]

That is the problem, everybody have different interpretation and calls each other wrong.

Yeah, that is the reality. No two people can be alike. Every one can not become Taliban and regress few centuries while the financiers of Taliban enjoying sex and drinks in Paris. Some other people just want to remain Muslims with their own interpretation allowing them to work as nuclear technologists, gynecologists and scientists. I do not see anything wrong with that at all. The only wrong thing is when a foreign culture tries to impose a society here so backward that even those foreigners themselves do not adhere to in their home countries. Such a hypocritical interpretations should be shunned and isolated.

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

Why is that bad? after all, are there not as many ways to get to get God as there are adherents? Or is it better that someone tells us how things will have to be??

It makes me remember the story of Hazrat Mosa and his dealings with the Sheppard which caused Allah himself to intervene. Arabs want us to become Taliban robots for them taking their orders just because they are Arabs and we are not.

 

[Ahmad]

Why is that bad? after all, are there not as many ways to get to get God as there are adherents? Or is it better that someone tells us how things will have to be??

it is bad, becasue everybody rightly or wrongly twist to his own benefit. Which islam is right? the Mullah Omar's or some other guys's islam? if it is open to interpretation, you can draw anything from it.

 

[VCheng]

yup.....so is it plausible thatva certain genetic mutation or disease had changed a group of people into chimps? degenerative mutation?

Regressive mutations are nearly always fatal. However, scientifically, a regressive mutation would be theoretically possible, but unlikely, but then again, immaculate conception is also theoretically possible, but unlikely, and is nonetheless believed to be true in at least one case.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just as an aside, there is a parallel in Christian history.

During the Protestant Reformation, various churches in Europe started saying mass in local (vernacular) languages instead of Latin since it was felt that Latin reminded people of Rome and, indirectly, Catholicism. Ironically, even Catholics stopped using Latin and recent Popes have been trying hard to reinstate Latin mass as a way to create Catholic unity across the globe. Some people view this use of Latin as a power-play by the Pope.

Anyway, back to the regular discussion...

One could draw parallels between the Christian Dark Ages and the current socio-cultural decline in many parts of the Muslim world, but, per my limited reading about the Protestant Reformation, change was wrought by challenging the dominant, regressive Catholic ideology of the time.

What needs to happen in Islam, as I have argued, is a challenge to intolerant and regressive interpretations of Islam, whether they be Wahabi, Deobandi or Barelvi, and an alternate religious narrative has to be offered. It is not enough to merely cast this as 'Not Arab', just as it is not enough to cast Pakistan's identity as 'not Indian'.

The direction Muse and some others appear to want to take to try and bring about change is a shallow and flawed one - even if we somehow become 'not Arab', the underlying cultural problems and regressive religious doctrine, as exemplified by the Sahih Bukhari Hadith regarding silk, music and dance, will not go away.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Santro

An arab proposition is not the same as an arabic propositon - you are you being so slippery? For the third time, express yourself plainly.

Islam as an arab proposition suggests that Islam's context and it's relevance is best understood in an arab idiom and culture - Is this your concern? Are you concerned that in saying that arabization is a negative, that we may also conclude that Islam is a negative?

Muse
I think you are being slippery here.

There is Arab tradition which is their modern / old tribal culture etc.
and then there is Islamic tradition, which is what the prophet left us with on the day of his last breath.

Tell us, which one of the two do you think is effecting our society ?

 

[Developereo]

One could draw parallels between the Christian Dark Ages and the current socio-cultural decline in many parts of the Muslim world, but, per my limited reading about the Protestant Reformation, change was wrought by challenging the dominant, regressive Catholic ideology of the time.

Repression and rampant corruption. The Catholic church had essentially gone into the business of selling salvation: you could do all sorts of crap all week long and then go to confessional on Sunday, make donations to the church, and clear the slate.

But the biggest issue was that the local rulers felt the Catholic church was infringing upon their authority on their subjects and creating divided loyalties. It was a political battle between the Church and local rulers. This aspect is directly comparable to what is happening in Islam right now. The thesis of the original article seems to be that Pakistan's rulers have caved in to (Saudi) Arabian pressure and abrogated Pakistani sovereignty. While there is some truth to that claim, there is also a huge element of escapism and scapegoating the Arab bogeyman, as you noted.

What needs to happen in Islam, as I have argued, is a challenge to intolerant and regressive interpretations of Islam, whether they be Wahabi, Deobandi or Barelvi, and an alternate religious narrative has to be offered.

Exactly.

As you noted earlier, the debate needs to be why extremism is bad, not why Arabism is bad. The implicit equation of the two is not only unfair, it will also backfire and play right into the hands of the extremist mullahs.

While it is true that Islam is not exclusively Arabic, it is also a fact that the Qur'an is in Arabic, the Prophet was an Arab, and much of Islam's early history is intimitely tied to Arabian history. While we can make the case that modern Arab rulers have deviated far from the Prophet's message and don't represent Islam in any way, the matter needs to be broached delicately.

It is not enough to merely cast this as 'Not Arab', just as it is not enough to cast Pakistan's identity as 'not Indian'.

If we focus on what Pakistani is rather than what it is not -- whether Indian or Arab -- that would be a more useful approach, I think.

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... the debate needs to be why extremism is bad, not why Arabism is bad. ....

There should be no "Holy cow" when discussing cultures. Otherwise it will be same as "Idol worshiping".

One should be able to discuss BOTH extremism, and Arabism without any fear of getting punished for blasphemy or such.

1400 years ago, Arab culture was not the epitome of niceness. However Mohammad pbuh brought some semblance of civilization to it.

We all know that Arabs tried to revert back to their old ways even during the time of Mohammad pbuh.

Such efforts continued and within 100 years or so, Arabs of modern day SA were able to successfully kick out the remnants of the changes minus some stuff like not putting pagan idols back in Kaaba.

The dark ages in the modern day Saudi have been around for 1300 years. No scientific or philosophic thought has come out of this black-hole (astronomically speaking).

Yes there was the tribal revolution led by Ibn Wahab etc. But ordinary Saudi has lived pretty much the same as they did 1000s of years ago. No sign of architecture, no Taj, no new buildings etc with the exception of Haramain Sharifan. Even those buildings were updated mainly by Turks.

Ordinary Arabs lived on the dole out of Hajis or simply looting the Haj caravans.

Situation only changed when thanks to USA technology, oil was discovered and from then onwards Saudis have done stop-gap copy of the Western culture. However their science, tech, and economic models are still stuck in a time that existed 100+ years ago.

However Pakistan's natives have done much better job in copying Western culture compared to Saudis for many many reasons.

Thus for Pakistanis to state that we copy Arabic culture is like a trip backwards. Our issues are much more urban than most Saudis could ever imagine. Those poor folks will take another 50-100 years to reach Pakistani culture of today.

Few Pakistanis go for Hujj Umra and think they understand Arabism. This is absolutely wrong. You gotta study Arabs living in small tribes away from big cities and away from Makkah Madina Jaddah. Then you will understand that anyone in Pakistan saying Arabic culture is "Islamic culture" is severely mistaken.

Quran Hadees can be in Arabic, and few scholars who need to interpret it can easily pick up that language.

For the rest of ordinary citizens of Pak or even Arabs, there is no way to become Quranic scholars. We all do specialized jobs these days. And there is no way we can live off of Qirat 24/7 365 days.

Arabic language is not a guarantee of Quranic understanding. Just look at 350 million Arabs. Majority of them cannot understand Quran either. Why else would they be divided into so much firqas and fitnas.

Heck even the 4 Imams of Sunnis and 12 or 6 Imams of Shias could not agree on single interpretation.

You expect 200 million Pakistanis to learn Arab to learn Quran, and I tell you, we'll have 200 million sects.


Peace.

 

[Developereo]

There should be no "Holy cow" when discussing cultures. Otherwise it will be same as "Idol worshiping".

One should be able to discuss BOTH extremism, and Arabism without any fear of getting punished for blasphemy or such.

The issue is not one of holy cows, but against gratuitous generalization.

We do not tolerate broad generalizations about other ethnic groups, so why Arabs? Especially since Arab culture of Morocco and Lebanon bears precious little resemblance to that of Saudi Arabia. Even within Saudi Arabia, it is unfair to malign all their citizens just because of some wealthy petro-sheikhs' lifestyle. I don't think anyone would dispute that the Arab (or Pakistani) rulers are no model of Islamic piety.

The point being made is that we should register our objection on legitimate grounds. If certain Gulf-funded ideologies are promoting misogyny or intolerance or violence, then our reason for opposing them is that migogyny, intolerance and violence are bad, not because they are 'Arabian'.

Quran Hadees can be in Arabic, and few scholars who need to interpret it can easily pick up that language.

For the rest of ordinary citizens of Pak or even Arabs, there is no way to become Quranic scholars. We all do specialized jobs these days. And there is no way we can live off of Qirat 24/7 365 days.

Arabic language is not a guarantee of Quranic understanding. Just look at 350 million Arabs. Majority of them cannot understand Quran either. Why else would they be divided into so much firqas and fitnas.

Heck even the 4 Imams of Sunnis and 12 or 6 Imams of Shias could not agree on single interpretation.

You expect 200 million Pakistanis to learn Arab to learn Quran, and I tell you, we'll have 200 million sects.


Peace.

I am not saying people should be forced to learn Arabic, but that it is understandable if they do, given the importance of Arabic in Islamic rituals. Some people will be happy to recite prayers without knowing the meaning, others will use translations, and yet others will want to understand for themselves. It doesn't mean they want to become scholars, but they have every right to decide for themselves if that is what they wish. And they shouldn't be stigmatized for doing so.

 

[VCheng]

Some cautionary detail relevant to the present discussion:


from: A decade after 9/11: Enduring lessons for the Arab world – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

Let me tell you about the most influential book to be published since 9/11, at least according to me. It's actually not a book but a report - a United Nations report written by a committee. I'm talking about the Arab Development Report published in 2002.

After 9/11, in the midst of the discussion of what was happening in the Arab world, why it was the source of this terrorism, the UN Development Program's head, Mark Malloch Brown, commissioned a study of the Arab world looking at political, economic and social issues. But he insisted it be researched and written by Arabs so there was no accusation of an outsider's bias or neocolonialism. The result was a brutally frank document that was a sensation. It was downloaded off the internet 1 million times.

The report documented the stunning decay of the Arab world. If you want to explore the conditions that produced al Qaeda, read this report. Take a look at some of the most damning statistics. When the nonprofit Freedom House rated world regions on a broad range of political and civil rights, Arab countries came last. Look at the economy - the UNDP report highlighted that the entire Arab League put together - that is 22 countries including Saudi Arabia and Egypt - had a smaller GDP than Spain. Fifteen percent of Arabs were unemployed compared to a global average of 6 percent at the time.

Then there's education: In 2002, 65 million adults, one of every four Arabs, were illiterate. One of out of every two Arab women couldn't read or write. And for the few Arab readers, there wasn't much choice. The entire region was translating just 330 books a year - one fifth the amount that Greece translates every year. All these statistics showed how the Arab world was worse off than everywhere except Sub-Saharan Africa.

Now, what caught my attention this week, almost a decade later, is that much of the data in that report is unchanged or barely changed. On jobs, the region now suffers some of the highest unemployment rates in the world. And the raw number of Arabs who can't read or write has actually increased. Other indicators have worsened, too. Somalia is now suffering from a deadly famine. And the last decade, Sudan's Darfur region becomes the mass crimes against humanity - one could go on.

In case you've been keeping track, the only real indicator of the Arab world's health that has actually improved since the UNDP report was published is its GDP. The Arab League's combined gross domestic product has quadrupled.

But here's the revealing statistic: The price of oil almost rose at the same rate. And that kind of oil-produced growth doesn't trickle down and it certainly doesn't help the tens of millions of Arabs in the region's most populous countries like Egypt and Syria that have little oil. According to World Bank data, it has taken three decades for the average Arab person's income to double since 1980. Meanwhile, inflation helped market prices double in just the first seven of those 30 years.

And so, now, we have the Arab Spring - from Tunisia to Egypt to Libya, repressive dictators are being toppled by people power. There's no doubt that this is great news. But remember, all other Arab regimes have managed to remain in power through a mix of repression and bribery. From Jordan to Oman to Saudi Arabia and Syria, increasing subsidies might delay popular resentment but it won't change the facts on the ground. And the crucial point is that even democracy will only succeed if these underlying social statistics on literacy and jobs and women's rights improves.

Ten years on from 9/11, the Arab world remains in denial. A recent Pew study shows the majorities in all Muslim states think that Arabs were not responsible for the attacks of September the 11th. Three out of four Egyptians hold that belief, for example. Now, that is simply nonsense. Instead of bizarre conspiracy theories, the Arab world needs to focus on the dire statistics the UNDP highlighted almost a decade ago.

The Arab spring is a first step for those countries that it has touched, but it needs to be a springboard for 300 million Arabs to look deep within and address the fundamentals that their leaders have neglected for decades - education, women's rights, economic reforms, jobs and real freedom.

 

[FaujHistorian]

The issue is not one of holy cows, but against gratuitous generalization.

We do not tolerate broad generalizations about other ethnic groups, so why Arabs? Especially since Arab culture of Morocco and Lebanon bears precious little resemblance to that of Saudi Arabia. ....



I am not saying people should be forced to learn Arabic, but that it is understandable if they do, given the importance of Arabic in Islamic rituals. .....

Agreed. No generalizations. However we should be able to say which of today's cultures encourages more equality and more tolerance as compared to the others.

No one is stopping a Pakistani from learning Arabic language. You my dear poster want to learn Arabic, then go ahead. Has anyone ever stopped you from doing so?

The issue is that Islamists Pakistanis think Arabism should be adopted on national level preferably as a government enforced. That is clearly wrong.

Oh and it is wrong to state that "Arabic is important in rituals". Instead it is "used" in Islamic rituals. However so many hamds and Naats and qawalis and other Islamic rituals use local languages with Arabic words hear and there. Dua after namaz is typically in local language. Majority of the Friday Sermons are in local languages.

Hopefully no one will jump in and say all the Hamds and Naats and Qawwalis are unIslamic.


peace.

 

[Developereo]

The Arab spring is a first step for those countries that it has touched, but it needs to be a springboard for 300 million Arabs to look deep within and address the fundamentals that their leaders have neglected for decades - education, women's rights, economic reforms, jobs and real freedom.

Most of the Arab dictators were selected by the British, French and Americans.

They were selected, not for their governing abilities, but their ruthlessness to keep their people in check. The last thing these dictators want is an educated, independent thinking population.

Democarcy in the Arab world is the West's worst nightmare.

 

[VCheng]

Most of the Arab dictators were selected by the British, French and Americans.

They were selected, not for their governing abilities, but their ruthlessness to keep their people in check. The last thing these dictators want is an educated, independent thinking population.

Democarcy in the Arab world is the West's worst nightmare.

... which is exactly why the "Arab Spring" is so important for millions: to deliver what should have been done long ago.

 

[Developereo]

Oh and it is wrong to state that "Arabic is important in rituals". Instead it is "used" in Islamic rituals. However so many hamds and Naats and qawalis and other Islamic rituals use local languages with Arabic words hear and there. Dua after namaz is typically in local language. Majority of the Friday Sermons are in local languages.

Hopefully no one will jump in and say all the Hamds and Naats and Qawwalis are unIslamic.


peace.

I was talking about the core rituals of namaaz and reading Qur'an, which are both 100% in Arabic, and which are common to all Muslims across the world. Most of the other stuff is region-specific and, as you noted, is often in the local language anyway, so it's not an issue.

 

[Asian.Century]

Arabs are the most betrayal & backstabbers in the Islamic history, associating Pakistan to being an Arab is a crime of big proportions, Pakistan has its own ideology & identity which it feels proudly off.