Betrayed, Arabized

[Safriz]

It appears to be a hadith from Sahih Bukhari:

SAHIH BUKHARI, BOOK 69: Drinks

... and it makes absolutely no sense, in terms of making 'wearing silk, listening to music and dancing' a 'sin and forbidden in Islam'.

What this hadith, and others like it, appear to be are attempts by regressive and patriarchal 'scholars' to concoct 'religious doctrine' justifying their regressive and intolerant personal views.

I see absolutely no rational reason to prevent wearing silk, listening to music and dancing, in any religion - why on earth would God/Allah bother with such trivial restrictions?

He is Allah/God, not a 'jailer'.

one thing is that religion defies OUR logic at times...

Allah being the proveder of everything wants (doesnt need) certain things from us as our sign of recognition and respect for Allah's divine authority...
restriction on not eating certain types of animals...such.as pig.logic says the whole world eats pig and stays healthy...why thos restriction for muslims? defies logic now..doesnt it?
But i di know somebody else who completely relied on logic and got himself in trouble.....Iblees...
logically his decision of not bowing to a statue nade of mud was correct...himself made of fire and a scholor...bowing to a mud statue just made...was illogical....but was a direct order...
we all know thecrest of the story...dont we?

when a system is breached and compromized and about to crash ANAMOLIES appear.....Every system has rules and bounderies defines by the system maker/programmer....
segregation between genders and each having their own visible identity is this systems requirement....silk forbidden for men but allowed for women and many such dressing restrictions which are gender spevific...so that genders dont lose their identity......is the system makers requirement.
when systems rulescare broken enmass anamolies appear and the systworks erratically with unexplainable behaviour...
isnt the matriX THE MOST RELIGIOUS MOVIE EVER MADE

 

[Safriz]

human and monkey genes arent that different...genetic mutation can downgrade humans into chimps..
thats one major flaw in darwinian theory which ignores this fact....
its not humans who decended from monkeys...its the otherway round.
beat that.

 

[muse]

Agreed..
but.. how far in our quest to sift out what is arbi culture.. and what is essential do we go?

This is a process, it will continue till it's not needed - But I think, since this is twice that you have brought up this question that there is a concern that you have not spoken of Plainly - please express your concern.


TO all readers: with regard to hadith - what relation, do you suppose, exists in the prevalence of the use of these and the closing of the gates of ijtihad in Sunni schools of law?

It's an important consideration, one which greater numbers of thoughtful readers such as yourselves, may find interesting to investigate.

Dogma - It is related to a particular kind of religiosity -- refer to the "Defending Militancy" thread for a elaboration of that religiosity, a practical, utilitarian and mundane religiosity.

 

[Safriz]

^^^all this has been answered and discussed..just flip through the pages.

 

[SQ8]

This is a process, it will continue till it's not needed - But I think, since this is twice that you have brought up this question that there is a concern that you have not spoken of Plainly - please express your concern.
.

Is my reading this particular book as it is.. even the need to read it.. part of a arbi conspiracy to enslave me?

 

[muse]

Certainly not. However, I don't think posting emotional and impertinent questions is what your real concerns are - please express your concerns fully.

 

[Safriz]

Certainly not. However, I don't think posting emotional and impertinent questions is what your real concerns are - please express your concerns fully.

religion has emotions.....so do humans...cant do away with it.

 

[SQ8]

Certainly not. However, I don't think posting emotional and impertinent questions is what your real concerns are - please express your concerns fully.

I believe Ive expressed them again and again..with emotion and without it.
Will our quest to target a VERY REAL arbization attempt.. lead to us to target the foundations of Islam itself?

 

[muse]

I believe Ive expressed them again and again..with emotion and without it.
Will our quest to target a VERY REAL arbization attempt.. lead to us to target the foundations of Islam itself?

I do not want to speak on your behalf but I find I have no choice if I am to address the point you raise - I am convinced that for you islam is arab and that this question of "arabization" is not just frivolous, but rather you understand it as a "religious proposition" and not a cultural one - I take your point, and of course I am in no position to judge future events and understandings, but I hope that in the near future there will be less people who confuse religious propositions with cultural propositions.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

only munafiqeen r confused

TARIQ

 

[SQ8]

I do not want to speak on your behalf but I find I have no choice if I am to address the point you raise - I am convinced that for you islam is arab and that this question of "arabization" is not just frivolous, but rather you understand it as a "religious proposition" and not a cultural one - I take your point, and of course I am in no position to judge future events and understandings, but I hope that in the near future there will be less people who confuse religious propositions with cultural propositions.

And I feel convinced that in your well meaning approach.. you are considering Islamic fundamentals as Arab cultural property.. and not as a universal message.
As I have repeated before.. if not arab .. then had Islam come down to Polynesia.. would be be worrying about Polynesian influences.. and how far would we go to remove Polynesian influences.

 

[Safriz]

^^^the cultural mix in religion is already adressed in islam and the keyword is "bidaat".
there is no need of inventing new terminologies such as arabization

 

[SQ8]

^^^the cultural mix in religion is already adressed in islam and the keyword is "bidaat".
there is no need of inventing new terminologies such as arabization

A better definition would be additions and activities carried out in the name of Islam that violate basic tenets.
Many things in the prophet's sunnah were partly cultural.. shall we consider that biddat?
for eg.. the prophet used dates to break his fast since dates were the popular fruit in that region... had the prophet been born in a place where the popular fruit was apples.. you would all be having apples.
Im sure you did not mean that.. however lets not allow any interpretations to occur that may spark another fruitless debate.

However.. The prophet was an Arab.. shall we hold that against him or god?
Was it god's mistake to send a prophet to Arabia? Is god biased? God forbid.. absolutely not, he knows his actions and the causes best.
So in our quest to wean out Najdi influences to create a controlling clergy .. where do we realize that the Najdi influence ends.. and the fundamentals of Islam begin?

Such a doctrine.. or manifesto is you may.. must be decided..WITH knowledge of both religion and culture..
Before we can take on the problem that is Najdi influence in our society.

 

[muse]

Santro

I think we have to begin with evaluating the proposition, is arabization good or bad, right or wrong? You have said it is "real"
now, of course we have to evaluate it


What I think is going on with you is the concern that in evaluating arabization we have concluded that it is a net negative and that since you are persuaded that islam is a fundamentally arab proposition, that such a negative judgement carries over to Islam itself - is that a fair summary of your concern?

 

[Safriz]

there is another termonology for the "allowed" addition.....thats "mubaah".
thinks that are allowed to do but shouldnt be considered as integral part of religion.
for example sunnah asks men to wear baggy dress (can we agree on that?) ,,, now arab gown is sunnah...then shalwar qameez is also sunnah.but comes under our culture too......
wearing shalwar qameez or arab gowb both fulfill the guidance given for male dressing and both comply with sunnah...and both fulfil their respective cultural requirements and trends........
arguably same can be said about baggy jeans/ trousers which dont fall below ankle and a long full sleeve teeshirt which falls below or upto hips...again a dressing complying with european culture and sunnah at the same time.

none of this would be bidaat...i suppose...but wi be as per our religion and the premier form of following religion.as on acvordance to sunnah.