Betrayed, Arabized

[President Camacho]

we don't have any identity problem it is in the mind of some few ppl,

That's the only place a problem has to be to become a problem.

I won't go much into details anymore, but yes, a lot of Pakistanis do not share a collective identity. 100s of posts within this forum ooze out the ultra individualistic views on identity that border outright hatred and unjustifiable disgust for others (Pakistanis).

By the way, your being so defensive toward the Taliban is, but one more reflection of this identity crisis.

Saudies were nowhere before 80's suppose from 1979-2001, it is not very long history and it is not all bad and never was bad their help but it is in some ppl's best interest to bash saudies or put blame on them

Look at the period you cited. Look at that Pakistan. You lived in the 60s and 70s too. Do you see any difference between that Pakistan and this Pakistan?

The mess you face today was sowed by Zia who forced a particular identity on the people of Pakistan. Matter of chance, it happened to be Saudi.

Anything, no matter how good, will do harm if forced, and anything no matter how bad, will benefit people if it is their own choice.

 

[muse]

the "Arabization" you refer to is still followed by an extreme minority inside Pakistan.

Only when it comes to the vile wahabi/Salafi ideology - but ordinary everyday things such as "Allah Hafiz" instea dof Khuda Hafiz, something we have used for more than a thousand years - the basic "arabization" the lead article points ot is not just intolerance
bred by the arabized variety of thought, it is the rejection of our heritage of humanities.

The lead article asks and no Pakistani or arbi here has risen to take up the challenge:

I will take liberty to speak for me and the third generation, I belong to too, who has the privilege to breathe in the airs of this still-not-so-pure-land and is much Pakistani now. I’m not going to mourn the Indus Valley civilization, but what is the substitute they offer me if it’s not desert? I refrain from whining about the bitter reality that I don’t have the clue of half of indigenous literature that has been written in Persian, but to say what do they have in the pipeline for me? I have nothing against whatsoever version of religion, but how would they justify the attacks on the shrines of my land? I’m all for endorsing their policies, but what is the vindication they have of myriads of dead bodies of my country-fellows? I’m ready to relinquish Khusrow, Ghalib, Bhittai, Bhulla, Rahman Baba and Gul Khan, but can they introduce me to the single one of this stature?

The basic thing here, is explain why this arabization is worth it - what was so wrong with Pakistan that this desert stuff is supposed to fix??

And this question has an answer - Pakistan's military leaders haqve become persuaded that their agenda can only be furthered by creating of Pakistan a "not Indian but Arabized/islamized culture" -- If you will review the "Making of the Modern Maulvi" thread, you will note that the rejection of Shah Valiullah Dehlvi's advice that Islam must not be confused with the culture specific in time and in geography, is advice that these people seem determined to reject.

 

[JonAsad]

Islam has nothing to do with Arabs or the Arabic nations, so I agree with you. Yes, "Arabization" in Pakistan has increased, but the foundations of Pakistan are strong in their Barelvi roots, & the "Arabization" you refer to is still followed by an extreme minority inside Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 AM ----------



Choose whatever word you want brother, radicalization or Arabization. I didn't want to choose "Islamization" here, because Islam doesn't have anything to do with Arab culture or radicalism. The reason I chose the word "Arabization" is because Salafism (radicalism) is a purely Arab phenomena, & I wanted to make that distinction. My message is the same if you replace "Arabization" with "radicalism".

Bilal,
How about making a distinction between Arabs of Saudi Arabia and rest of almost 25-26 other Arab countries with equally different cultures?-
Single Saudi Arabia does not make Arab Culture Bilal-

 

[Safriz]

We are asked to live our lives according to "sunnah" and our Holy Prophet is "Rasool e Arabi",so many things which are "sunnah" match with existing arabic culture...But since "Innamal aamalo binn nee yaat"
We do all that not to be "arab" but only to follow "Mohammad ur rasool ullah"..the second part of our Kalimah.....
Give it any name you want...but the right person with right knowledge and good intention is only doing it as "Sunnah" nothing else.

 

[Mosamania]

Bilal.... where is Bialal ibn Rabah from you? ahh never mind.

Trying to associate terrorism with "Arabs" now and this is only "Arabic" because of the retarded "Arabic" mentality or to better quote "Vile".
Accusing us with no evidence except Internet articles and some people's blogs and then bring it as "Evidence".

The Qur'an was sent in Arabic language unlike other scriptures before it we are responsible of keeping it just the way it is "Intact" Maybe we should start translating it the way Muse and some others suggest and later we will have Eizkels and Job's some hundred years from now each author making his own "input" and "opinion" on the subject.

 

[Safriz]

~Dont you think terrorism was used as a tool to subjugate arabs and have access to their oil wealth by "you know who"?

 

[Omar1984]

Islam has nothing to do with Arabs or the Arabic nations, so I agree with you. Yes, "Arabization" in Pakistan has increased, but the foundations of Pakistan are strong in their Barelvi roots, & the "Arabization" you refer to is still followed by an extreme minority inside Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 AM ----------



Choose whatever word you want brother, radicalization or Arabization. I didn't want to choose "Islamization" here obviously, because Islam doesn't have anything to do with Arab culture or radicalism. The reason I chose the word "Arabization" is because Salafism (radicalism) is a purely Arab phenomena, & I wanted to make that distinction.

Im a Sunni Muslim and this is the first time I hear of Barelvi. So I googled it up and this is what I found.


To its followers the movement is known as Ahle Sunnat wal Jama'at ("People of the traditions of Muhammad and the broad community"), as a means to lay exclusive claim to be the legitimate form of Sunni Islam, in opposition to its reformist rivals like the Deobandi, Ahl al-ḥadīth and Darul-uloom Nadwatul Ulama movements.[4] This is a contested claim and outside of the movement it is commonly referred to as the Barelvi movement,[5] derived from Ahmad Raza's home city of Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh, India.

Barelvi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So how can you say we Pakistanis are Barelvi roots when most Pakistanis can't even trace their roots to Uttar Pradesh? And this was a movement that started in the 1880s of some Sunni Muslims in Uttar Pradesh founded by a Sunni Muslim man in Uttar Pradesh, so what about the Shia Muslims in Pakistan? Do they have Barelvi roots also.


To follow Islam, you must follow the 5 pillars (They are (1) the shahadah (creed), (2) daily prayers (salat), (3) almsgiving (zakah), (4) fasting during Ramadan and (5) the pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj) at least once in a lifetime). Then there are sects, Sunni and Shia...but people hardly give attention to school of thought like Salafi, Hanafi, and Barelvi..these are minor things and are irrevelant. Why do you need a man from Uttar Pradesh to tell you how to follow Islam. Read the Quran and Hadith and you will learn Islam.

 

[President Camacho]

Pakistan's collective identity is of that of a Pakistani, which is (rightly or wrongly) inseparable from Islam today.

Rightly of course.

Religion is a very strong adhesive, it can never be a problem until... it is allowed to become a tool for the powerful.

And we all know what the collective identity of Pakistanis is. The point of debate is, is that identity under threat?

This is not the Islam of the Saudis (Salafi) or of India (Deobandi), but of the Barelvis & the Sufis, which is native to the land. This is more important than ethnic or lingual divides. Most Pakistanis are peaceful Barelvi Sunnis, who live peacefully with Shias like me, as well as other non-Muslims. The "Arabization" you are referring to is the fringe Salafi society that the TTP/Taliban/Al-Qaeda follow, & the Pakistan Army is fighting right now with the full support of the Pakistani people. A non-Muslim Pakistani is a Pakistani first & foremost, & that is enough for most Pakistanis living in Pakistan.

I did not use the term "Arabization", not even once.

And please let us not discuss the details of the religion in here. It will needlessly add fuel to a lot of fire already raging in this thread.

 

[Al Bhatti]

To argue that most Pakistanis are balevi's is to state the obvious, that is to say it does not deal with the issue of arabization - the arbi maso says Islam knows no language and no nationality - now if the arbi is willing to acknowledge this, why do some Pakistanis have such a hard time distinguishing between Arab culture and Islam?

Any culture or tradition that is as per Islam is Islamic and not limited to any specific nation, be it related to Pakistanis, Arabs, Turks, Persians, English, French, or any other another nation.

 

[53fd]

Only when it comes to the vile wahabi/Salafi ideology - but ordinary everyday things such as "Allah Hafiz" instea dof Khuda Hafiz, something we have used for more than a thousand years - the basic "arabization" the lead article points ot is not just intolerance
bred by the arabized variety of thought, it is the rejection of our heritage of humanities.

The lead article asks and no Pakistani or arbi here has risen to take up the challenge:



The basic thing here, is explain why this arabization is worth it - what was so wrong with Pakistan that this desert stuff is supposed to fix??

And this question has an answer - Pakistan's military leaders haqve become persuaded that their agenda can only be furthered by creating of Pakistan a "not Indian but Arabized/islamized culture" -- If you will review the "Making of the Modern Maulvi" thread, you will note that the rejection of Shah Valiullah Dehlvi's advice that Islam must not be confused with the culture specific in time and in geography, is advice that these people seem determined to reject.

Well, you are quite right sir, & it is a shame that Khuda Hafez got converted into Allah Hafiz (I have explained my reasons in Post #127, Page 9 in great detail), but the most imminent threat Pakistan currently faces is from vile/violent Salafi ideology "Arabization". I will still stand by my statement I made earlier though:

I think it is safe to say that Pakistan (besides the tribal areas) is nothing like an Arab country. Pakistanis do not culturally/socially relate with "Arabization", but more on a religious level, as the Quran, & the other sources of guidance (Ahadith, Sunnah etc) of Islam are in Arabic. However, Pakistan also has lots of Afghan, Persian, Tibetan, Tajik etc roots as well that have nothing to do with India.

I think it is fair to say that every society progresses differently over a period of time. For example: India has longed to go back to its pre-invasion Hindu roots as well, & many Hindus regard the Muslim history as foreign to their land. A similar case with Pakistan, which has taken on some "Arabic traits", but again, most of Pakistan is still deeply immersed into Tawassuf (I'm sure you know what this means, if you don't, I can explain it & its significance), which doesn't have anything to do with Arab culture.

 

[Mosamania]

Bilal,
How about making a distinction between Arabs of Saudi Arabia and rest of almost 25-26 other Arab countries with equally different cultures?-
Single Saudi Arabia does not make Arab Culture Bilal-

This is called not knowing where to point exactly so you make a whole circle hoping the other guy doesn't notice. Non-Muslims world blames Muslims > Muslims will blame "Arabs" > Arabs will blame Gulf countries Arabs> Gulf country Arabs will blame Saudi Arabia and no body really knows who to blame in the end of the day we only find ourselves abandoned the same way the Prophet was in his early days and the word of our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) will become true "Islam started strange and it will once again return strange".

Now others will try to derail what I said into "You are saying no Islamic country in the world except Saudi Arabia?" so I will answer this preemptively in No this is not what I mean.

 

[muse]

The Qur'an was sent in Arabic language unlike other scriptures before it we are responsible of keeping it just the way it is "Intact" Maybe we should start translating it the way Muse and some others suggest and later we will have Eizkels and Job's some hundred years from now each author making his own "input" and "opinion" on the subject.

Wahabi are only "rent collectors" -- Quran claims it is continuation of a message given to Jews and Christians among others and those messages were not in Arabic - was it not God who revealed those messages??? And lest face it if Quran is the Word of God, can it be corrupted and still be the word of God?? Is it not blasphemy to argue that God needs the assistance of men, especially Arbis of the Saudi variety?

But lets not digress, some will be persuaded that God speaks only Arabic - to them we say, good luck to you and your desert, when the oil runs out, you will sell yourselves as future prophets - and good luck with that -- But to Muslims, our message must always be one in which issues must be examined clear headedly.

What about arabization is worthy enough to sacrifice Pakistan and the conscience of the Muslim?

 

[53fd]

Im a Sunni Muslim and this is the first time I hear of Barelvi. So I googled it up and this is what I found.


To its followers the movement is known as Ahle Sunnat wal Jama'at ("People of the traditions of Muhammad and the broad community"), as a means to lay exclusive claim to be the legitimate form of Sunni Islam, in opposition to its reformist rivals like the Deobandi, Ahl al-ḥadīth and Darul-uloom Nadwatul Ulama movements.[4] This is a contested claim and outside of the movement it is commonly referred to as the Barelvi movement,[5] derived from Ahmad Raza's home city of Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh, India.

Barelvi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So how can you say we Pakistanis are Barelvi roots when most Pakistanis can't even trace their roots to Uttar Pradesh? And this was a movement that started in the 1880s of some Sunni Muslims in Uttar Pradesh founded by a Sunni Muslim man in Uttar Pradesh, so what about the Shia Muslims in Pakistan? Do they have Barelvi roots also.


To follow Islam, you must follow the 5 pillars (They are (1) the shahadah (creed), (2) daily prayers (salat), (3) almsgiving (zakah), (4) fasting during Ramadan and (5) the pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj) at least once in a lifetime). Then there are sects, Sunni and Shia...but people hardly give attention to school of thought like Salafi, Hanafi, and Barelvi..these are minor things and are irrevelant. Why do you need a man from Uttar Pradesh to tell you how to follow Islam. Read the Quran and Hadith and you will learn Islam.

Sirjee, Barelvism is a recent movement, but it has the same tenets as Sufis. Now please do some research into Sufism, & how Sufis spread Islam into present day Pakistan throughout history over centuries.

 

[JonAsad]

Bilal- there is a point i am about to make hopping you will understand- the mousy guy is just hopeless- please tell me how many arab countries follow wahabi or salafi school of thought?- and a reply to my previous post will be appreciated?-

 

[53fd]

Im a Sunni Muslim and this is the first time I hear of Barelvi. So I googled it up and this is what I found.


To its followers the movement is known as Ahle Sunnat wal Jama'at ("People of the traditions of Muhammad and the broad community"), as a means to lay exclusive claim to be the legitimate form of Sunni Islam, in opposition to its reformist rivals like the Deobandi, Ahl al-ḥadīth and Darul-uloom Nadwatul Ulama movements.[4] This is a contested claim and outside of the movement it is commonly referred to as the Barelvi movement,[5] derived from Ahmad Raza's home city of Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh, India.

Barelvi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So how can you say we Pakistanis are Barelvi roots when most Pakistanis can't even trace their roots to Uttar Pradesh? And this was a movement that started in the 1880s of some Sunni Muslims in Uttar Pradesh founded by a Sunni Muslim man in Uttar Pradesh, so what about the Shia Muslims in Pakistan? Do they have Barelvi roots also.


To follow Islam, you must follow the 5 pillars (They are (1) the shahadah (creed), (2) daily prayers (salat), (3) almsgiving (zakah), (4) fasting during Ramadan and (5) the pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj) at least once in a lifetime). Then there are sects, Sunni and Shia...but people hardly give attention to school of thought like Salafi, Hanafi, and Barelvi..these are minor things and are irrevelant. Why do you need a man from Uttar Pradesh to tell you how to follow Islam. Read the Quran and Hadith and you will learn Islam.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of Barelvism, considering the fact that about 70% of all Sunni Muslims today are Barelvi Muslims. Barelvi Muslims are just like every other Muslims, but they practice Tawwassuf as well, to get a closeness to Allah (swt).