Azerbaijan Defence Programs & Military Development

[xxxKULxxx]

Eu doesn't have that much political power.... They have the potential yes...but they don't act like one fist.

Mate i'm sure they understood the reality @ Ukraine event... If russia holds energy need in it's hands this will be so bad for europe... russia will suck blood of EU...

 

[Azeri440]

Azerbaijan orders TMM-6

 

[rmi5]

Battle of Baku - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't want to talk about politics, ... but, simply the situation was very different at those times. You had people like Ataturk in those era, while you have an Erdogan, now.
BTW, if you are ready to war on our behalf, do us a favor and go capture Yerevan. It's located right on your border, and taking it is 6-7 hours job for your army.

Russia will push up a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Why? At first, Armenia/Russia will destroy your pipeline. Gasoline price will increase and Russia get his monopoly of gasoline back.

What you need is Israel and US support.

That's right. Russia is a superpower which is sided against us, and the only thing that can change the balance is another more powerful superpower. We should not get Russians mad, and Russians are negotiable people. Bringing Israel, EU, and USA to Azerbaijan, can make a real power shift in the conflict. Armenians have recently signed more agreements with Russia and I hope EU can understand that her best and only useful ally in South Caucasus is Azerbaijan.

 

[-SINAN-]

Mate i'm sure they understood the reality @ Ukraine event... If russia holds energy need in it's hands this will be so bad for europe... russia will suck blood of EU...

Yeap, what you are talking about is the "Problem"

They are aware of that problem but i'm saying that they don't have much political power against Russia....did EU able to stop Russia in Ukraine ? No... What makes you think that they can give enough support to Azerbaijan to counter Russia ? They couldn't do that in their door step.

 

[rmi5]

It has nothing to do with being emotional or not. Keep all brotherood or ally stories aside;

-If you are talking about "price" issue, Israel can't offer lower price than Turkey in equivalent products. It is the strongest card of Turkish industry against others. Offering the best technology in lower prices.
-If the issue is technology or capacity of products, You can't reach a result before comparison as government to government deal doesn't give such a chance.
-If you worry about dependent of foregin technology, You shouldn't fill your inventory with the most strategic weapons of the best friend of your biggest enemy. You call Israel as ally but You should know that the biggest ally of Israel is Azerbaijani money, not national interests. At a likely national risk, Israel will sit on their chairs and watch the situation with popcorns, While Turkish army/people will march towards East. Maybe We will fall into dangerous situation with Russia, maybe We will try to make Russia silence with undertable efforts ??? Who knows ???

To minimize dependant on foreign technology, Turkey has been offering collaboration on ongoing and matured products/projects from decades. It was offered participation of productions with establishment of factories in both side. You can find dozen of sources regarding them. Did you get How brother states acts now ? Have you already been searching a logic behind our speeches ?

Let me tell you more logic regarding alliance of 21. century. Ally USA is putting a secret embargo to Turkey cause of not select own systems in LORAMIDS tender. Ally Russia is signing strategic agreements with India's enemy, Pakistan because Ally India didn't select some Russian staffs in tender. Israel has to order USA staffs cause of some reasons. Those are the nature of alliance among friends, no need to mention brotherhood. How emotional they are, isn't it ? What Turks want, isn't the one USA or Russia request from allies. Israel is a good friend indeed. That's why Their toys look more attractive than ours despite all efforts done by Turkish side for a long time but You should realize that Even If you spend all your money on Israeli weapons, You can't move one step ahead into your future without Turkey's support.

OK, then let me be completely honest with you guys:
1) Israeli and Russian equipment have much higher quality on average. Just consider the upgrades that they did on our tanks. Could have you done the same thing?
2) We need to fight against a country with the state of the art Russian technology and support. Then we need to have something superior to our enemy not inferior to Russian technology.
3) You are offering us weapons that are not available and are planned to be produced, like Altay, TFX, ... we cannot wait that long to achieve your weapons.
4) Your arms are usually consisted of parts that are imported from other countries like EU countries. So, we need to have much more headache for importing each part and the required technical assistance, while it would be easier if just directly import them from EU, Russia or other suppliers.
5) About alliance, each real and not just a dream, alliance needs a pivot country. NATO only has meaning when US has the role of pivot, and can provide required technology, money, equipments, ... In eastern block countries(Russia, Iran, Syria, China, ...) Russia is the pivot and has the same role as US in that alliance. Now, tell me who is the pivot for Turkic countries? two option can come to mind that are Turkey and Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan has already problems with every single one of her neighbors, and Turkey is not willing to do be the pivot, nor is strong enough yet, to be the pivot. In addition, your leadership, does not give a damn about Azerbaijan or other turkic countries, or turkic people and we are only defined for being importers of turkish goods, while your allies are defined to be the muslim brotherhood movement and muslim arab countries, and even Iran.
I was trying to sugarcoat these words in order not to hurt your emotions, but I think I need to be a bit more frank now.

Turkey has much better relations with azerbaijan than any arab country and these relations have gotten stronger over the years.

Turkey cares more for Palestine than Karabagh. Turkey cares more for Kirkuk oil and alliance with kurds than turkmens in Iraq. Turkey cares more for Egypt and Sisi than Azerbaijan and Armenian regime, ...
I don't want to tell this stuff, since they are really saddening facts, at least for me.

Sorry but the reality is inverse of your words... West is in need of Azerbaycan... Actually this reality is hidden in your words too...

So west including you in need of Azerbaycan... And what ? For sure you need Türkiye also...

Yeap, sure...

According to FIFA rules any flag other then 2 teams is forbidden...

But, that is not a strict law. I clearly remember when once Bahrain won Iran, Bahraini players brought KSA flag to the middle of football field and FIFA did nothing. BTW, in Asian cup games, fans of Tractor FC, always bring Azerbaijan flag to stadium, and FIFA never opposed it.
BTW, it is not written to throw flags in the trash which was Islamic Faith's point.

 

[rmi5]

Yeap, what you are talking about is the "Problem"

They are aware of that problem but i'm saying that they don't have much political power against Russia....did EU able to stop Russia in Ukraine ? No... What makes you think that they can give enough support to Azerbaijan to counter Russia ? They couldn't do that in their door step.

The reason is that Ukraine is more like a liability than an useful or important country for EU. So, EU does not jeopardize her benefits for gaining nothing. Azerbaijan, and central Asian, and Potentially even Iranian oil and gas can be exported via Azerbaijan and through georgia, Turkey, or black sea, which can make her important for EU in the future.

 

[-SINAN-]

The reason is that Ukraine is more like a liability than an useful or important country for EU. So, EU does not jeopardize her benefits for gaining nothing. Azerbaijan, and central Asian, and Potentially even Iranian oil and gas can be exported via Azerbaijan and through georgia, Turkey, or black sea, which can make her important for EU in the future.

Mate, i know....

All i'm saying is EU doesn't have power to support Azerbaijan against Russia.... we will never see that's happening.

 

[rmi5]

Mate, i know....

All i'm saying is EU doesn't have power to support Azerbaijan against Russia.... we will never see that's happening.

It depends, if such pipeline gets finished, and EU gets more independent from Russian oil & gas, they would have a much more aggressive policy to save their own interests, including such pipelines and the countries which transfer those oil and gas.

 

[usernameless]

OK, then let me be completely honest with you guys:
1) Israeli and Russian equipment have much higher quality on average. Just consider the upgrades that they did on our tanks. Could have you done the same thing?
2) We need to fight against a country with the state of the art Russian technology and support. Then we need to have something superior to our enemy not inferior to Russian technology.
3) You are offering us weapons that are not available and are planned to be produced, like Altay, TFX, ... we cannot wait that long to achieve your weapons.
4) Your arms are usually consisted of parts that are imported from other countries like EU countries. So, we need to have much more headache for importing each part and the required technical assistance, while it would be easier if just directly import them from EU, Russia or other suppliers.
5) About alliance, each real and not just a dream, alliance needs a pivot country. NATO only has meaning when US has the role of pivot, and can provide required technology, money, equipments, ... In eastern block countries(Russia, Iran, Syria, China, ...) Russia is the pivot and has the same role as US in that alliance. Now, tell me who is the pivot for Turkic countries? two option can come to mind that are Turkey and Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan has already problems with every single one of her neighbors, and Turkey is not willing to do be the pivot, nor is strong enough yet, to be the pivot. In addition, your leadership, does not give a damn about Azerbaijan or other turkic countries, or turkic people and we are only defined for being importers of turkish goods, while your allies are defined to be the muslim brotherhood movement and muslim arab countries, and even Iran.
I was trying to sugarcoat these words in order not to hurt your emotions, but I think I need to be a bit more frank now.



Turkey cares more for Palestine than Karabagh. Turkey cares more for Kirkuk oil and alliance with kurds than turkmens in Iraq. Turkey cares more for Egypt and Sisi than Azerbaijan and Armenian regime, ...
I don't want to tell this stuff, since they are really saddening facts, at least for me.



But, that is not a strict law. I clearly remember when once Bahrain won Iran, Bahraini players brought KSA flag to the middle of football field and FIFA did nothing. BTW, in Asian cup games, fans of Tractor FC, always bring Azerbaijan flag to stadium, and FIFA never opposed it.
BTW, it is not written to throw flags in the trash which was Islamic Faith's point.

bro, never feel bad when you have to use words that may disappoint some people. Sometimes strong words are needed in order to wake some people up. Given the circumstances at the present, there is not much Turkey can do, with or without akp (though they missed some good opportunities to help Turkics). Even if you put the most pro-Turkic party in Turkey, what radical game breaking difference would it make? Turkey as a country simply does not have the political nor militaristic nor economical power to be that pivot leader (yet?). We, Turkics, are an emotional lot confronted with a grave realism of being alone between powers from pretty much every direction that do not wish us much good, and then some of us of course will feel even more sad when they feel their fellow Turkics 'abandoning' them.

 

[-SINAN-]

It depends, if such pipeline gets finished, and EU gets more independent from Russian oil & gas, they would have a much more aggressive policy to save their own interests, including such pipelines and the countries which transfer those oil and gas.

That would be wonderful, i would want such a pipeline not only for Azerbaijan but for Kazakhistan and Turkmenistan as well.... it would be awesome...

But as i said before... i don't believe EU can make a such move.... they are very divided. Germany-France says one thing, England says another, Italy says another, etc...we saw that in Syria crisis. One says that it will support US, other one says that it won't support, remaining says nothing..

I believe it's best to rely on our power. Turkey needs to give his attention to this problem but we are focusing on ME. Erdogan needs to go but who will come instead ???

 

[rmi5]

bro, never feel bad when you have to use words that may disappoint some people. Sometimes strong words are needed in order to wake some people up. Given the circumstances at the present, there is not much Turkey can do, with or without akp (though they missed some good opportunities to help Turkics). Even if you put the most pro-Turkic party in Turkey, what radical game breaking difference would it make? Turkey as a country simply does not have the political nor militaristic nor economical power to be that pivot (yet?). We, Turkics, are an emotional lot confronted with a grave realism of being alone between powers from pretty much every direction that do not wish us much good, and then some of us of course will feel even more sad when they feel their fellow Turkics 'abandoning' them.

I agree with most of your post. Anyway, we should not underestimate ourselves either. US, Israel and EU have the ability to help turkic countries and they already have motivation because of tons of reason. I believe that instead of throwing mod on western countries and being more arab than arab countries in supporting their stupid fights and disappointing Western countries, Turkey needs to have a more wise, western oriented approach. Erdogan and AKP leadership know your people very well, and very well know how to manipulate your emotions with empty populist slogans. Turkey can be the pivot with the help of western countries, but it needs a wise non-populist non-sectarian secular strong leadership. I believe that there are still capable honest men in your army who can take care of this job.

That would be wonderful, i would want such a pipeline not only for Azerbaijan but for Kazakhistan and Turkmenistan as well.... it would be awesome...

But as i said before... i don't believe EU can make a such move.... they are very divided. Germany-France says one thing, England says another, Italy says another, etc...we saw that in Syria crisis. One says that it will support US, other one says that it won't support, remaining says nothing..

I believe it's best to rely on our power. Turkey needs to give his attention to this problem but we are focusing on ME. Erdogan needs to go but who will come instead ???

Sinan, Brother, you are missing the point. EU can get very united if they feel that they have a common interest somewhere and it is threatened. Then you would see that all of their divisions would be vanished. About Syria, EU does not have any significant interests, so they don't care at all. But, if you talk about oil and gas, EU would have a much more different position.
You need to elect some smart secular leader, which has real plans for economy, foreign policy , ...
Erdogan is exactly doing what is the most harmful for your interests. from his alliance with kurds which would back fire heavily on your interests in future to caring for and favoring bunch of stupid terrorists against Israel, and also worsening your relation with Egypt while it is totally done for no reason.

 

[Bismarck]

@rmi5

Only my opinion, but I think the reason why Turkey can't go offense against Armenia is his history (1914-1917?). Russia is although a problem (repent on Russia gasoline import). What they can do is only pressure on United Nations to solve the problem. That's the official way. Unofficial, they can support Azerbaijan in all aspect of wars (ToT, export weapons, build up defense industry, close up economy ties....)

But you are right, Turkey are not able to produce same quality weapons like Russia or Israel, yet. Also, they don't have the capability to export huge numbers of military stuffs. That's why they help Azerbaijan to build up its defense industry. One point more, many stuffs like Anka are not in mass production phase.

Everything aside, it seems that Turkey is more interested in Palestine than in Azerbaijan/Armenia issue.

That's my opinion.

 

[cabatli_53]

OK, then let me be completely honest with you guys:
1) Israeli and Russian equipment have much higher quality on average. Just consider the upgrades that they did on our tanks. Could have you done the same thing?

Based on what ? Which criteria did you consider to reach such a result ? Have you ever tested any of Turkish goods before talking about them unconciously ? What you know about them ? Enlighten us with your brillent assessments dude...

Could have we done the same thing?

We have already did.
Kazakh T-70 tanks are being upgraded by Aselsan but Armours are outsourced to Israel.
Kazakh armoured vehicles are being upgraded by Turkey.
Aselsan succesfully upgraded Leopard-1 and Leopard2A4 tanks. Leopard2NG configuration of Aselsan are being considered by a European country at present.

Most probably, You didn't see the image of upgraded Leopard2A4 as well. Type Leopard 2NG to google to reach some details before talking about quality comparisons...

2) We need to fight against a country with the state of the art Russian technology and support. Then we need to have something superior to our enemy not inferior to Russian technology.

If the weapons Turkey developed are inferior to What Russia transfered second/first hand goods to Armenia, Then It is the end of the way before beggining. It is a good indication of your biassed and baseless point of view about Turkish engineering activities and developed products.

3) You are offering us weapons that are not available and are planned to be produced, like Altay, TFX, ... we cannot wait that long to achieve your weapons.

The matter is not only about ongoing projects to establish a domestic industry infastructure to minimize dependance of Azerbaijan but also matured systems that has already been offered but As you see in naval project examples, Azerbaijan mostly outsources the project to either Israel or Russia with a govern. to government deal, Although Turkish officials along with industrial elements have spend many times to work togather on those projects.

4) Your arms are usually consisted of parts that are imported from other countries like EU countries. So, we need to have much more headache for importing each part and the required technical assistance, while it would be easier if just directly import them from EU, Russia or other suppliers.

You think Israeli systems you ordered consists fully domestic Israeli systems so You wouldn't meet likely mentioned problems that you pointed out for Turkey's arms ? Have you ever check the aerostar or Heron engines ? What about propulsion systems, chassis of Israeli armoued vehicles ? What about Green pine radars ? Arrow missiles ? What abour SAAR corvette propulsion?...etc Dude, I think your unbelieveable poor approach to Turkey related events make you blind to realize What you are talking about...

 

[rmi5]

@rmi5

Only my opinion, but I think the reason why Turkey can't go offense against Armenia is his history (1914-1917?). Russia is although a problem (repent on Russia gasoline import). What they can do is only pressure on United Nations to solve the problem. That's the official way. Unofficial, they can support Azerbaijan in all aspect of wars (ToT, export weapons, build up defense industry, close up economy ties....)

But you are right, Turkey are not able to produce same quality weapons like Russia or Israel, yet. Also, they don't have the capability to export huge numbers of military stuffs. That's why they help Azerbaijan to build up its defense industry. One point more, many stuffs like Anka are not in mass production phase.

Everything aside, it seems that Turkey is more interested in Palestine than in Azerbaijan/Armenia issue.

That's my opinion.

I think you are right. Turkey lacks a good wise long-term strategy. They have good potentials, but lousy political leaders. Turkey needs to wait, at least for 10 years, to gain the required power, both economical and technological. until then, we should be realistic and do not have imaginary high hopes. dealing carefully with all sides, including USA, EU, Russia, and engage them in our country, is the best solution.

 

[usernameless]

I agree with most of your post. Anyway, we should not underestimate ourselves either. US, Israel and EU have the ability to help turkic countries and they already have motivation because of tons of reason. I believe that instead of throwing mod on western countries and being more arab than arab countries in supporting their stupid fights and disappointing Western countries, Turkey needs to have a more wise, western oriented approach. Erdogan and AKP leadership know your people very well, and very well know how to manipulate your emotions with empty populist slogans. Turkey can be the pivot with the help of western countries, but it needs a wise non-populist non-sectarian secular strong leadership. I believe that there are still capable honest men in your army who can take care of this job.



Sinan, Brother, you are missing the point. EU can get very united if they feel that they have a common interest somewhere and it is threatened. Then you would see that all of their divisions would be vanished. About Syria, EU does not have any significant interests, so they don't care at all. But, if you talk about oil and gas, EU would have a much more different position.
You need to elect some smart secular leader, which has real plans for economy, foreign policy , ...
Erdogan is exactly doing what is the most harmful for your interests. from his alliance with kurds which would back fire heavily on your interests in future to caring for and favoring bunch of stupid terrorists against Israel, and also worsening your relation with Egypt while it is totally done for no reason.

i also agree with your view, however the west simply was and is not honest with Turkey, hypocrite is a better word, and im sure they will continue to treat Turkey as a second rate country. Actually im happy that finally a Turkish party (with Erdogan at the front) had the backbone to diss some Europeans and Americans who used to (and still) throw shit (right or wrong, but criticism should at least be both ways) in an one-way direction at Turkey. That aside, Turkey just should keep special trade treaties with EU and just do business/humanitarian aid with Arab countries, not put our nose into matters to the point where Turkey is (trying to be) in charge of one's problems, like Erdogan being keen on protecting the Muslim Brotherhood only to frustrate the opposition parties in those Arab countries. Actually i dont think the EU is completely comfortable with Turkic countries having a degree of leverage on them with those pipelines, but out of needs, they will have to consider such projects and partnerships with us just to avoid more problems with Russia. The Turkic countries really need wise secular leaders one after another who can play their cards right to keep the long-term goal intact and not get bogged down on selfish or sectarian paths.