Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[YoungTurk01]

Aluminum has a lot of benefits for engine and other parts which involves a lot of friction and temperature changes.

First; aluminum is an interesting material. Every solid material gets micro scale damage when you heat them and let them cool. This temperature change, especially with big temperature gradients(engines have that a lot) wears the material slowly. This metal fatigue makes the material fragile in the long run. You do not want this in a tank engine. They are big, their pieces work under a lot of force, they experience a lot of exterior effects too.(Harsh enviroment, lots of shocks beacuse of driving at offroad, acoustic(explosive) shocs etc.)

Aluminum and its alloys(if chosen right) are very durable against metal fatigue caused by thermal processes. This is another advantage too. It is a good material for an engine if you want a reliable engine at the long run.

But as you said "Metallurgical knowledge is the keyword." This is the most important part.

I m still against all around aliminium engine, should be hybrid iron block with aliminium heads, intake etc. I know people gone post shave weight from the tank. Excuse me but tank it self 65+ ton won’t be a matter if u shave few hundred pound from the tank.
I personally think rehabilitation of the engine come first before that few hundred pounds.
Thanks

 

[what]

Rheinmetall CEO says Turkey row holding up defence projects - DPA

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Tensions between Germany and Turkey are holding up planned defence projects at Rheinmetall, the German company’s chief executive told news agency DPA in an interview.

Ties between the two NATO allies have been strained by Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan’s crackdown on opponents after a failed coup last year as well as Germany’s refusal to extradite people Turkey says were involved in the plot.

Rheinmetall CEO Armin Papperger said in the interview published on Monday that several projects, including the production of ammunition for fighter jets in Turkey and upgrades to Turkey’s Leopard tanks, were still awaiting decisions by the two governments.

“If relations with Turkey don’t improve it will be difficult to obtain clearance from Germany,” he said.

Poor relations have also dimmed Rheinmetall’s prospects for playing a role in Turkey’s Altay tank project, worth an estimated 7 billion euros ($8.13 billion), DPA said.

Turkey’s BMC, with which Rheinmetall has a joint venture in Turkey, is among the bidders for the first tranche to build around 100 to 200 of a planned 1,000 combat tanks, DPA said.

If BMC wins the contract, Rheinmetall could in theory take part in the development of the tank via joint venture RBSS, in which the German company holds a 40 percent stake, but it would need an export clearance from the German government.

Papperger said Rheinmetall had no plans to build its own tank factory in Turkey.

https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKBN1CZ0NW


So Rheinmetall is/wants to produce ammunition for fighter jets, upgrade Leos and build Altay or at least a batch of them.

 

[-------]

Rheinmetall CEO says Turkey row holding up defence projects - DPA


https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKBN1CZ0NW


So Rheinmetall is/wants to produce ammunition for fighter jets, upgrade Leos and build Altay or at least a batch of them.

Rheinmetall BMC Defence Industry Inc. (RBSS) was established in 2016 as a joint venture by BMC Automotive, one of the leading automotive industries of Turkey providing solutions in both defence and transportation industries; Rheinmetall A.G., Germany’s foremost supplier of weapons and ammunition, electronics and vehicle systems of army technology and Etika Strategi, one of the biggest conglomerates in Malaysia. RBSS’s Headquarters is located at: Büyükesat Mahallesi Uğur Mumcu Sokak No: 4 GOP Çankaya, Ankara Turkey. The primary objective of RBSS is to demonstrate an excellent example of international cooperation through Turkey's multinational structure, design, engineering and production capacity and Rheinmetall's 127 years of experience in land vehicles, weapons and ammunition. RBSS main area of interest is tracked and wheeled military and tactical vehicles.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

If Rheinmetall wants money from Turkey, they might want to turn on some lobbying pressure on Berlin and get those PKK demonstrations under control. Otherwise their hopes of ever grabbing contracts from Turkey again might end up in the Rhine, if you catch my drift.

 

[Timur]

If Rheinmetall wants money from Turkey, they might want to turn on some lobbying pressure on Berlin and get those PKK demonstrations under control. Otherwise their hopes of ever grabbing contracts from Turkey again might end up in the Rhine, if you catch my drift.

unfortunally we have always had bitches who sell themselves and other out.. so our leader will bitch around for what he wants to have.. just like a bitch who wants to have little metall necklace with a shining stone if you know what I mean

in the meantime we will have to pay for it.. with what? with blood..

 

[Swezu]

Turkey kicks off estimated $1B-plus competition for Altay tank engine
By: Burak Ege Bekdil   2 hours ago

Turkey scraps sole-source deal, opening contest for Altay tank program
A senior SSM official familiar with the Altay program said Otokar’s best and final offer failed to qualify for a single-source serial production contract.

By: Burak Ege Bekdil
Turkish engine-maker Tumosan won in 2015 a $100 million contract to develop an engine for the Altay. It then signed up a know-how deal with Austrian firm AVL List GmbH. But in 2016, this key technical support contract was canceled as part of Austria’s arms embargo on Turkey.

Last month, Turkish procurement officials said they were in talks with the British-based European division of U.S. company Caterpillar over a plan to produce and supply an engine for the Altay. Caterpillar and its U.K.-based partner, engine-maker Perkins, have expressed interest in the power pack for the Altay program.

Under the Altay program, Turkey aims to produce an initial batch of 250 tanks, eventually reaching 1,000 units. The Turkish government obtained serial production bids from three manufacturers: Otokar, BMC and FNSS

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Foreign diesel engine for Altay... Foreign jet engine for TFX... Foreign turbine gas engines for Milgem... Foreign turboshaft engine for the T-129...

Over and over again, this engine issue keeps coming back and kicking us in the azz. It's clear that developing all kinds of engines needs to be the #1 priority of the Turkish government and defense industry with serious amounts of funding and participation from both government and private sector. We design great hulls, airframes, electronic systems, etc but when it comes to the most crucial component, the engines, motors, transmissions and propulsion systems we're slacking behind. I feel like there needs to be a renewed focus on this.

Why not create one, very well funded, subsidized, protected, joint government-private sector company with a very decent budget and support it with universities and organizations like TUBITAK and task it with the sole purpose of designing & producing all kinds of engines needed in the country's defense projects:

-- Diesel engine family for tanks, IFVs, APCs, etc.
-- Gar turbine/diesel engine family for naval platforms
-- Jet engines for TFX, Trainer, Regional Airline, Cruise Missiles, etc.
-- Turboshaft engines for T-129, Utility helicopter, etc
-- Liquid fueled rocket engines for UFS
-- Ion engine for satelllites, space probes
-- Various gear boxes, transmissions, cooling systems, electronic control systems, etc for all of them

 

[kartal1]

Foreign diesel engine for Altay... Foreign jet engine for TFX... Foreign turbine gas engines for Milgem... Foreign turboshaft engine for the T-129...

Over and over again, this engine issue keeps coming back and kicking us in the azz. It's clear that developing all kinds of engines needs to be the #1 priority of the Turkish government and defense industry with serious amounts of funding and participation from both government and private sector. We design great hulls, airframes, electronic systems, etc but when it comes to the most crucial component, the engines, motors, transmissions and propulsion systems we're slacking behind. I feel like there needs to be a renewed focus on this.

Why not create one, very well funded, subsidized, protected, joint government-private sector company with a very decent budget and support it with universities and organizations like TUBITAK and task it with the sole purpose of designing & producing all kinds of engines needed in the country's defense projects:

-- Diesel engine family for tanks, IFVs, APCs, etc.
-- Gar turbine/diesel engine family for naval platforms
-- Jet engines for TFX, Trainer, Regional Airline, Cruise Missiles, etc.
-- Turboshaft engines for T-129, Utility helicopter, etc
-- Liquid fueled rocket engines for UFS
-- Ion engine for satelllites, space probes
-- Various gear boxes, transmissions, cooling systems, electronic control systems, etc for all of them

Everything is going step by step. The babies when they born are starting by eating milk and then some juices and so on. I never saw a baby to eat a steak for example. Everything will come Inshallah. We have to be grateful for what we have now because our defense industry made a big boom. In very short time they introduced us last technology products and big projects that decreased critically our needs for foreign equipment. Of course there are problems but I think they will be solved in the shortest possible time. As you say now its time to concentrate at the engine technology. We are seeing already that we are making the needed steps. For our first big projects we will receive foreign help but that will lay a foundation for our national domestic developments in future. The baby must start from somewhere.

 

[Oublious]

Foreign diesel engine for Altay... Foreign jet engine for TFX... Foreign turbine gas engines for Milgem... Foreign turboshaft engine for the T-129...

Over and over again, this engine issue keeps coming back and kicking us in the azz. It's clear that developing all kinds of engines needs to be the #1 priority of the Turkish government and defense industry with serious amounts of funding and participation from both government and private sector. We design great hulls, airframes, electronic systems, etc but when it comes to the most crucial component, the engines, motors, transmissions and propulsion systems we're slacking behind. I feel like there needs to be a renewed focus on this.

Why not create one, very well funded, subsidized, protected, joint government-private sector company with a very decent budget and support it with universities and organizations like TUBITAK and task it with the sole purpose of designing & producing all kinds of engines needed in the country's defense projects:

-- Diesel engine family for tanks, IFVs, APCs, etc.
-- Gar turbine/diesel engine family for naval platforms
-- Jet engines for TFX, Trainer, Regional Airline, Cruise Missiles, etc.
-- Turboshaft engines for T-129, Utility helicopter, etc
-- Liquid fueled rocket engines for UFS
-- Ion engine for satelllites, space probes
-- Various gear boxes, transmissions, cooling systems, electronic control systems, etc for all of them

Ther is no need for TUBITAK or university, ther is company needed who is prepared to invest money. And 10 years to mature it. Turkish companies have no vision, they are for the money.

 

[Yatağanlı]

Ther is no need for TUBITAK or university, ther is company needed who is prepared to invest money. And 10 years to mature it. Turkish companies have no vision, they are for the money.

Incorrect, companies need to cooperate with universities, so that the next generation of student get an education, that is actually usefull for their jobs as engineer in these companies. Teach them what we need, so that they can design the engines.

 

[Oublious]

Incorrect, companies need to cooperate with universities, so that the next generation of student get an education, that is actually usefull for their jobs as engineer in these companies. Teach them what we need, so that they can design the engines.

First you need a company to invest in a factory with R&D. Ther is no such thing, so ther will be no cooperation.

 

[xenon54 out]

Ther is no need for TUBITAK or university, ther is company needed who is prepared to invest money. And 10 years to mature it. Turkish companies have no vision, they are for the money.

The companies need a guarantee for profit, you know a lot corruption is going around, imagine you spend money 10 years long for R&D, mature a project but your product finds no customers for political reasons, thats to much of a risk for a businessman,

 

[mete]

I m still against all around aliminium engine, should be hybrid iron block with aliminium heads, intake etc. I know people gone post shave weight from the tank. Excuse me but tank it self 65+ ton won’t be a matter if u shave few hundred pound from the tank.
I personally think rehabilitation of the engine come first before that few hundred pounds.
Thanks

If it is done just for weight you are absolutly right; that is not even a matter of argument. But if there are other reasons as I mentioned then things might change.

 

[Glass]

So the problem right now is the engine right ? Thats why they cant start serial production or am i missing something?

 

[kartal1]

So the problem right now is the engine right ? Thats why they cant start serial production or am i missing something?

The problem was in the first tender with Otokar officially because of the cost but I think political reasons are there. The new tender will involve Otokar, BMC and FNSS and after they receive the new offer they will put it in serial production.