What's new

Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

Finns dont even know how to build tanks why is Turkey purchasing engines from them??

Finns are suited to their climate. Turks need a tank that performs in every climate.

Finns dont have ambitions in their region the Turks do. Get the FIAT-Iveco engine.
 
Finns dont even know how to build tanks why is Turkey purchasing engines from them??

Finns are suited to their climate. Turks need a tank that performs in every climate.

Finns dont have ambitions in their region the Turks do. Get the FIAT-Iveco engine.
Let’s chill. the gokturk report is after all just a claim until it’s confirmed.
 
I agree and we’re not buying 250 engines in one go, no we’re going to build a prototype and test it out before committing.
 
I agree and we’re not buying 250 engines in one go, no we’re going to build a prototype and test it out before committing.
Dont we have 2 prototypes already? This project should have been in serial production phase. Are we funding BMC for a new prototype, for a new engine they have found from somewhere, for a new design as they call 'refined'?
Altay will be outdated by the time being in service at mass amounts.
 
Dont we have 2 prototypes already? This project should have been in serial production phase. Are we funding BMC for a new prototype, for a new engine they have found from somewhere, for a new design as they call 'refined'?
Altay will be outdated by the time being in service at mass amounts.
New engine requires new prototype anything else would be risky
 
I find this talk over 1600hp Fiat-Iveco MTCA 12V diesel engine interesting as I have not heard Italy actually starts producing Ariete C2 which supposedly comes with the engine. It is widely known that Fiat-Iveco has lobbied the Italian government to get some research budget for Ariete C2.

It is possible that the Turkish government & BMC have offered large sums of cash in advance to Fiat-Iveco for development of 1600hp Fiat-Iveco MTCA 12V diesel engine and try to re-design their MBT with a new Italian engine, which would delay this MBT for at least another couple of years. Or Turkey could locally produce Ariete C2 under the license and call it Altay Mk.2 with some Turkish parts.

However, the rumor over the Italian engine is pretty much baseless speculation unless it gets officially confirmed by the Italian government & Fiat-Iveco. Until then, I will remain skeptical.

The most important take here is that Ariete employs German ZF automatic transmission. Therefore, the German embargo on arm sales to Turkey still applies.
 
There is neither a 1500 HP Italian engine nor there is a project for it. There is also no suitable engine for Altay in the following countries:
  • US
  • UK
  • Russia
  • France
  • Ukraine

Koreans have one, guess with whom license they get produced? Japanese, Finnish and Chinese have engines that produce similar outputs, but the forte of MTU's engine is it is such a small machine for the power it outputs. I am not an expert on this but Wartsila is a juggernaut and probably can offer a similar product, but Finnish has been embargoing us so lol. Adopting any other engine will cause a major overhaul in tank design, I doubt BMC would be able to do that in the near future. Besides, Türk'ün Türk'e propagandası bu haberler.
 
mtu is low chance now..

That's a huge lie. Otokar offered a lower cost in the first 2 tenders. Ethem Sancak talked with his buddy to shift production to tank-palet so he wouldn't need to invest in a factory like Otokar. So, he was able to offer a lower cost than Otokar and get the tender (still making much more money per tank when compared to Otokar)
this is not true. plz show the source..
 
As far as I know there was only one tender for the serial production of Altay which started in november 2017 and conluded about a year later.
Not counting Otokar's exclusivity rights to offer a price for serial production. The acceptance tests for Altay was passed in february of 2017. Somewhere between february and november of 2017, Otokar and SSB failed to come to an agreement. After SSB rejected Otokar's offers, it resulted in an open tender that included Otokar, FNSS and BMC in november 2017. February of 2018 all companies gave their best and final offers, april of 2018 the tender concluded with BMC winning it. There hasn't been a new tender ever since, as far as I know.

ALTAY'ın seri üretimine talip firmalardan ikinci bir “en iyi ve en son teklif" istendi

You are right but, all the firms gave their second "en iyi ve en son teklif" which happened to be the third tender, in which BMC managed to get.

Anyways, winner of the Altay tender decided in 2015.
stern.jpg


This doesn't make sense to me and here is why. BMC is supposed to invest millions of dollars on tank palet to modernize the factory while still building the Karasu plant. This means BMC must invest it's profits into these factories. This would mean they make less profit. While Otokar didn't need to build a new factory for Altay (as far as I know), so according to this logic, Otokar would've made more money per tank if they were to win the tender with the same price. And I don't know the ins- and outs of when Otokar or BMC would turn a profit (which is well deserved for these companies, imo), just making a counterargument on what you said here.

To be honest, these discussions with BMC and Otokar is always fueled by partisanism and this speculative quote does give the impression that it also came due to partisanism (coupled with the implication), I mean how are we supposed to know how much profit these companies would (potentially) make per tank.

And no, I don't believe Otokar was trying to rob the people, like I said, I do not know the ins- and outs of these companies and when they make profit per tank. But its not just profit per tank, it is also the risk a company is willing to take and company strategy. For instance if they make 10 usd per tank profit, this might not be enough of a profit for company A but enough for company B due to the risk these companies are willing to take on. Risk is determined by speculating over the future and scenario playing. "If scenario B happens, will the company be able to surive with 10 usd per tank?" yes or no? How bad does scenario B have to get, in order to be in the red with 10 usd per tank? etc. And according to this, these companies weigh their options. BMC, FNSS, Otokar and companies in the world weigh their options according to the risk they are willing to take. For this tender apperently BMC had a higher risk profile and a more aggressive strategy compared to the other two companies which allowed them to give the lowest bid.

According to the interview with Ethem Sancak on Haberturk (you can view it on youtube), he has been actively looking for financiers, which he found with the Qatari's. This gives BMC the edge to offer more aggressive prices when it comes to tenders and the prices of their products, because BMC has something it can fall back on if it were to go south (risk profile). The 49% shares of Qatari's investors means that the risk is shared with the Qatari's. Due to risk being shared, this allows BMC to take on a more aggressive strategy and more risk. This allows them to offer more aggressive prices in order for them to gain more market share and grow its brand name. Gaining more marketshare is also a form a investment, a company is willing to take on losses by offering cheaper products in the short term, if it means gaining more market share, because this will pay off in the long term, but highly risky as competitors aren't standing still either.

By the way, I was personally rooting for FNSS during the tender. Due to the reason that FNSS innovates the most in my opinion and was hoping that they would innovate with the Altay if they were to win the tender. With innovate I mean that they keep coming with newer versions of their platforms like Pars 3's and the various Kaplan medium tanks. But ultimately for me, it doesn't matter which one wins because I like all three companies. When it comes to their products, FNSS makes the best looking equipment while BMC make the ugliest in my opinion, but all are much appreciated.

They are not making Karasu plant (stopped) and not investing anything in Tank-Palet....i don't want to go in more detail. I don't give a fvck about Otokar, FNSS, or BMC, i don't own those companies nor o i have any shares.

The thing is, if you mix blemish in tenders as the state. Than companies will think "Whatever we do, we won't get the tender because of the connections of a single company". So they won't invest in defense industry anymore, (think about Otokar stopping all of it's defence industry branches), this will cause ceasing of competition and lowering the quality of the Turkish products all together. As well as discouraging new investments.

this is not true. plz show the source..
Sorry, i can't do that. I'm not forcing anyone to believe me.
 
mtu is low chance now..


this is not true. plz show the source..

I think AKP did not disclose the tender results, not even overall numbers. Which is worth noting as a breach of transparency.

When you look at how Otokar was ready to produce, and BMC needed to buy/rent tank palet factory, build a new factory. I am not very sure that any of those things makes the piece price of the MBT cheaper.


I was watching this one, but never finished it (busy with work etc), so maybe there are some enlightenments. This is also where I found out the Etem Sancak was a former politician/journalist.

It's worth watching.

EDIT: Efem Sancak mentions the prices given at around 26:00. BMC gave price 3,5 bil. Euro for 250 ALTAY.

Otokars price was even prior to tender 7 bil. Euro.
 
Last edited:
Bro's yours dont know two thing.
Army isnt only give a tank palet to bmc. Army offer all of three competitors. Army say I can give to all of yours one of the two abmk of him 1. Abmk or 2. Abmk. One of the have german based other one modern based infanstructure. And companies looked, thinked and choose one of him with his offers.

Just becauese serial production of 250 tank and makeing prototype not a same thing. You need new huge machines, logistical infanstructure lines, test areas, and new infanstructure for new employess etc. When my visit to fnss factory , factory works with his fully potentional for just ttza's and korkuts . His production line cannot carry altay. Also Otokar is same.
So all firms will use abmks if hims selected.

So another wrong thing you know yours thinking bmc does not know make a tank and give a assistance from rheinmetall on rbss. But you forget one thing . All firms on project gives assistance from foreign firms.

Otokar gives a assistance from Rotem
(koreans), also fnns gives a assistance from bae and already like rbss firm. İn the beginnig on the serial production project bmc wants a work with koreans but koreands refuse him just because hims agreement with Otokar, after that bmc want a work with bae but they denied him for his cooperation with fnss. So bmc goes the germans but senate does not approve this for political problems.And now bmc going alone and gaining engineers from another firms like a crazy.

On the otherhand if project taken by otokar. Otokar cannot be produce this tanks due for engine ban from germany. Yes otokar designed this tank but bmc convert him more reilable tank. Just compare two otokar and bmc versions.

And last one political parties on the top generally supports many firms on the fields for creating new beast firms. Like koreans did it hyundai, samsung or japans did it on mitsubishi . İn our country that firms cannot be gezici Otokar or fnss. He will be head supported person.
 
Bro's yours dont know two thing.
Army isnt only give a tank palet to bmc. Army offer all of three competitors. Army say I can give to all of yours one of the two abmk of him 1. Abmk or 2. Abmk. One of the have german based other one modern based infanstructure. And companies looked, thinked and choose one of him with his offers.

Just becauese serial production of 250 tank and makeing prototype not a same thing. You need new huge machines, logistical infanstructure lines, test areas, and new infanstructure for new employess etc. When my visit to fnss factory , factory works with his fully potentional for just ttza's and korkuts . His production line cannot carry altay. Also Otokar is same.
So all firms will use abmks if hims selected.

So another wrong thing you know yours thinking bmc does not know make a tank and give a assistance from rheinmetall on rbss. But you forget one thing . All firms on project gives assistance from foreign firms.

Otokar gives a assistance from Rotem
(koreans), also fnns gives a assistance from bae and already like rbss firm. İn the beginnig on the serial production project bmc wants a work with koreans but koreands refuse him just because hims agreement with Otokar, after that bmc want a work with bae but they denied him for his cooperation with fnss. So bmc goes the germans but senate does not approve this for political problems.And now bmc going alone and gaining engineers from another firms like a crazy.

On the otherhand if project taken by otokar. Otokar cannot be produce this tanks due for engine ban from germany. Yes otokar designed this tank but bmc convert him more reilable tank. Just compare two otokar and bmc versions.

And last one political parties on the top generally supports many firms on the fields for creating new beast firms. Like koreans did it hyundai, samsung or japans did it on mitsubishi . İn our country that firms cannot be gezici Otokar or fnss. He will be head supported person.

@-SINAN- My best advice to all of you, don't write anything before you've watched the video I linked. It's a very nice and enlightening.

The necessary questions are being asked by reporters to Ethem Sancak. (I keep misspelling his name).
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom