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Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

I want to thank god once again that the project was not awarded to Otokar.

Otokar was trying to rob the Turkish people by offering the contract for $7b while BMC agreed to $4b.

If we were living in one of the nepotistic governments of the past I am sure they would have awarded the project to Otokar and shared the profits.

Lets also not forget that the engine issue is a political one. And that it is independent of the companies.

Care to explain how some of the mega projects build akp had built are going to cost more than 100% of it's cost ? Kutahya airport ad Deliorman posted in another thread is just an example. Uzaysan gave examples too in same thread with source provided.

I just want an explanation. Please correct us if we're wrong. Provide a source, please.
 
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Care to explain how some of the mega projects build akp had built are going to cost more than 100% of it's cost ? Kutahya airport ad Deliorman posted in another thread is just an example. Uzaysan gave examples too in same thread with source provided.

I just want an explanation. Please correct us if we're wrong. Provide a source, please.
I am sorry I can’t comment on those as I don’t have sufficient information about those projects.
 
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I am sorry I can’t comment on those as I don’t have sufficient information about those projects.
ok, but I hope you realize we're dying here worrying over our country and people. The bill always ends up being paid by the people. I remember the 90's invoice collecting I remember how usd went to 55.000 and then exploded during Tansus time. DSP tried their best to create sustainable growth, but it was too late, imf came and all that important infrastructure etc. Had to be privatized as a result. Akp comes pays of the debt with everything our people had and now we' re heading down the drain. That's how I see things.

We have not had a soft landing, we've yet to have a decade without economic woes. Selling property to rich foreigners using that money to develop infrastructure at more than double the cost. Expecting tourists to save our economy ? Accepting halt of refugees for what ? Mesle 6 billion euro we didn't even get that. The cost of having refugees far surpasses those 6 billion euro.

We're worried because there aren't anyone but elwctions to stop rte and akp from fucking up one after another. We're worried.
 
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ok, but I hope you realize we're dying here worrying over our country and people. The bill always ends up being paid by the people. I remember the 90's invoice collecting I remember how usd went to 55.000 and then exploded during Tansus time. DSP tried their best to create sustainable growth, but it was too late, imf came and all that important infrastructure etc. Had to be privatized as a result. Akp comes pays of the debt with everything our people had and now we' re heading down the drain. That's how I see things.

We have not had a soft landing, we've yet to have a decade without economic woes. Selling property to rich foreigners using that money to develop infrastructure at more than double the cost. Expecting tourists to save our economy ? Accepting halt of refugees for what ? Mesle 6 billion euro we didn't even get that. The cost of having refugees far surpasses those 6 billion euro.

We're worried because there aren't anyone but elwctions to stop rte and akp from fucking up one after another. We're worried.
It is okay and even good to be worried. All of us have very good reasons to be worried about the economy. But keep 2 things in mind:
1- Worry about the right things for the right reasons. The issue of this tank is (imho) a thing that actually went right amidst the economic chaos that we are in. The economy is in shambles, a dollar is worth more than 7 TRY at this point and we all know very well that it is only going to get worse. But none of this necessitates buying the tank from Otokar at about two times the price or even speeding up the project. That is the definition of being counter productive.

2- Worrying is different than bashing. Please don’t act like all of our problems (or even most of them) will be gone when AKP goes (and understand that I am not accusing you of this here, it is just a PSA).
 
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Please guys there is important news, please dont lose it.


Turkey-Italy Future Defence Industry Opportunities
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-italy-future-defence-industry-opportunities.367365/
img_20200508_000228-jpg.630515

img_20200508_000725-jpg.630516

images
 
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So it appears as if the engine problem is almost solved. I still hope that either Otokar or FNSS has a part to play in the project.

I don't want to turn this into something political but Otokar got absolutely robbed when the the future of the project was awarded to BMC. Both Otokar and FNSS have experience with tracked vehicles and their factories could build the Altay tank.

But instead it was given to BMC because of Ethem Sancak.

What many people like to forget is the fact that the project was held back an extra two years because BMC didn't have the experience or capabilities to produce tanks. If Otokar kept the project in their hands then we could've acquired the 1600HP IVECO engine sooner and started production two years ago.

I hope our projects never suffer again due to nepotism.

Actually key name is Taha Yasin Öztürk.

I want to thank god once again that the project was not awarded to Otokar.

Otokar was trying to rob the Turkish people by offering the contract for $7b while BMC agreed to $4b.

If we were living in one of the nepotistic governments of the past I am sure they would have awarded the project to Otokar and shared the profits.

Lets also not forget that the engine issue is a political one. And that it is independent of the companies.

Otokar was the right choice for this production. They were realistic. Now BMC is responsible for every delay. We can easily blame it because of the political background. Previously BMC was a good company before it gets political tool.

KOC Holding donated lots of tools to health workers. Our domestic ventilation machines are producing their factory. They always be part of this country.

Please guys there is important news, please dont lose it.


Turkey-Italy Future Defence Industry Opportunities
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-italy-future-defence-industry-opportunities.367365/
img_20200508_000228-jpg.630515

img_20200508_000725-jpg.630516

images

Yesterday I saw another Twit about the engine agreement. It mentioned Finland. I don't know which one is more realistic for our case.

 
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Yesterday I saw another Twit about the engine agreement. It mentioned Finland. I don't know which one is more realistic for our case.


Shit engine for our region. Will never perform in hot areas like Turkey. If this is the engine they chose then scrap the fucking project.

Leclerc sold to the UAE all have MTU engines for this reason because this engine is just a pure catastrophy.

Here this account explains better why this engine would never perform well in and around Turkey.

 
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^and keep the soldiers in fcked up m60´s and leos? Better a shit engine which we can fix and develop then none. Srsly.
 
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^and keep the soldiers in fcked up m60´s and leos? Better a shit engine which we can fix and develop then none. Srsly.

A shit engine that won't work in hot weather. Nice idea leaving soldiers vunerable by having their tank break down in the heat of battle not able to manoeuvre into cover and get hit by ATGM.

A shit engine that will cost more in repairing every other week because it broke down in hot weather than the actual price of procuring.

A shit engine that led to the UAE enlargen the hull of the Leclerc by 0.3m to fit an MTU engine and expend the costs because they knew it was a hazard for their troops and a security flaw.

I'm sure the soldiers will be happy having to repair the engine every two weeks and have it break down on them while fighting insurgents or other enemies and not be able to take cover meaning the total loss of the tank.

You can't fix something that hasn't been able to be fixed by other for a decades now. If it was fixable French engineers would have fixed it while they were selling the tank to the UAE.

There is a reason Leclerc hasn't been sold to any other hot climate country. Even though it is not a bad tank.
 
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Good, then continue to use the m60´s and leos.

M-60TM and upgraded Leo2A4 are better and more secure than Altay with an engine prone to breaking down at all times because it can't stand hot climates.

Turning Altay into a joke that is known more for breaking down just because you want to see pictures of it in active duty is ridiculous. Everyone here wants Altay to go into production and modernize our Tank fleet, doesn't mean I'm willing to sacrifice the reputation of the Tank, Turkish engineering and the lifes of our tank operators for it.

Ah and exports? Forget those too, no one is gonna buy a tank known for breaking down just because the weather is hot.

Instead of being mad at me for telling the truth maybe you should divert your anger toward the ones who led us to having to resort maybe to a shit engine not suited for Altay and our climate.

I would rather have 20 Altays with MTU engines than have a 100 with what the finnish call an "engine".

And in the end I don't put any credibility into this rumor. It is either going to be Italy, England or South Korea if they have fixed their transmission.

We are more likely to wait for our own engine suited to Altay then resort to that catastrophy that the finnish call an engine.
 
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Otokar was trying to rob the Turkish people by offering the contract for $7b while BMC agreed to $4b.
That's a huge lie. Otokar offered a lower cost in the first 2 tenders. Ethem Sancak talked with his buddy to shift production to tank-palet so he wouldn't need to invest in a factory like Otokar. So, he was able to offer a lower cost than Otokar and get the tender (still making much more money per tank when compared to Otokar)
 
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That's a huge lie. Otokar offered a lower cost in the first 2 tenders. Ethem Sancak talked with his buddy to shift production to tank-palet so he wouldn't need to invest in a factory like Otokar. So, he was able to offer a lower cost than Otokar and get the tender (still making much more money per tank when compared to Otokar)
As you just said, they are paid trolls or blind partizans. But they are also Machiavellists can lie until they get their shares.
 
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That's a huge lie. Otokar offered a lower cost in the first 2 tenders. Ethem Sancak talked with his buddy to shift production to tank-palet so he wouldn't need to invest in a factory like Otokar. So, he was able to offer a lower cost than Otokar and get the tender (still making much more money per tank when compared to Otokar)
As far as I know there was only one tender for the serial production of Altay which started in november 2017 and conluded about a year later.
Not counting Otokar's exclusivity rights to offer a price for serial production. The acceptance tests for Altay was passed in february of 2017. Somewhere between february and november of 2017, Otokar and SSB failed to come to an agreement. After SSB rejected Otokar's offers, it resulted in an open tender that included Otokar, FNSS and BMC in november 2017. February of 2018 all companies gave their best and final offers, april of 2018 the tender concluded with BMC winning it. There hasn't been a new tender ever since, as far as I know.

Ethem Sancak talked with his buddy to shift production to tank-palet so he wouldn't need to invest in a factory like Otokar. So, he was able to offer a lower cost than Otokar and get the tender (still making much more money per tank when compared to Otokar)
This doesn't make sense to me and here is why. BMC is supposed to invest millions of dollars on tank palet to modernize the factory while still building the Karasu plant. This means BMC must invest it's profits into these factories. This would mean they make less profit. While Otokar didn't need to build a new factory for Altay (as far as I know), so according to this logic, Otokar would've made more money per tank if they were to win the tender with the same price. And I don't know the ins- and outs of when Otokar or BMC would turn a profit (which is well deserved for these companies, imo), just making a counterargument on what you said here.

To be honest, these discussions with BMC and Otokar is always fueled by partisanism and this speculative quote does give the impression that it also came due to partisanism (coupled with the implication), I mean how are we supposed to know how much profit these companies would (potentially) make per tank.

And no, I don't believe Otokar was trying to rob the people, like I said, I do not know the ins- and outs of these companies and when they make profit per tank. But its not just profit per tank, it is also the risk a company is willing to take and company strategy. For instance if they make 10 usd per tank profit, this might not be enough of a profit for company A but enough for company B due to the risk these companies are willing to take on. Risk is determined by speculating over the future and scenario playing. "If scenario B happens, will the company be able to surive with 10 usd per tank?" yes or no? How bad does scenario B have to get, in order to be in the red with 10 usd per tank? etc. And according to this, these companies weigh their options. BMC, FNSS, Otokar and companies in the world weigh their options according to the risk they are willing to take. For this tender apperently BMC had a higher risk profile and a more aggressive strategy compared to the other two companies which allowed them to give the lowest bid.

According to the interview with Ethem Sancak on Haberturk (you can view it on youtube), he has been actively looking for financiers, which he found with the Qatari's. This gives BMC the edge to offer more aggressive prices when it comes to tenders and the prices of their products, because BMC has something it can fall back on if it were to go south (risk profile). The 49% shares of Qatari's investors means that the risk is shared with the Qatari's. Due to risk being shared, this allows BMC to take on a more aggressive strategy and more risk. This allows them to offer more aggressive prices in order for them to gain more market share and grow its brand name. Gaining more marketshare is also a form a investment, a company is willing to take on losses by offering cheaper products in the short term, if it means gaining more market share, because this will pay off in the long term, but highly risky as competitors aren't standing still either.

By the way, I was personally rooting for FNSS during the tender. Due to the reason that FNSS innovates the most in my opinion and was hoping that they would innovate with the Altay if they were to win the tender. With innovate I mean that they keep coming with newer versions of their platforms like Pars 3's and the various Kaplan medium tanks. But ultimately for me, it doesn't matter which one wins because I like all three companies. When it comes to their products, FNSS makes the best looking equipment while BMC make the ugliest in my opinion, but all are much appreciated.
 
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