Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Kamil_baku]

Not the response time but the reset/re-engagement time is what is important. The response time is how fast the system goes from not active to engaging a threat.

The reset time is how fast the system can fire at a second threat after engaging one threat.

So for example if an RPG7 munition is fired at the Akkor, and the Akkor detects and engages it, how long does the Akkor need before it is ready to fire again. If the Akkor needs more than 0.2-0.5 seconds to fire again after firing once then that means it cannot defeat the RPG30.

However there are other ways as I have mentioned in previous comments. If it was a design requirement that the Akkor be able to defeat the RPG30 then there might be other methods. For example even if reset time isn't fast enough; the system might be programmed to recognize the RPG30 and engage the actual warhead instead of the dummy rocket. We would have to posses an stash of RPG30 launchers in order to evaluate / test such a design feature.

You are missing one point there... Akkor will not need to move to other directions to fire the second projectile... Basically, if it was used against RPG-30, both decoy and main missiles comes from the same direction... The reason AKKOR got two projectiles together is to counter both missiles... to make it short, the reset time you mentioned is not the same as you understood...
Also, Turkish Aselsan is well developed about MMW radars, basically, it has more potential to has better system that Koreans...

 

[DavidSling]

Rafael is developing additional active protection systems, but the name "Trench Coat" refers ONLY to Trophy.
No additional / supplementary APS beyond Trophy (= "Trech Coat") entered service, entered serial production, or even shown by Rafael.

If you think that from reading Israel Defense you know something about Trophy (= "Trench Coat") I don't, you are wrong.


WTF? You are confusing "Trench Coat" (מעיל רוח) with Blazer ERA.

No I'm not, Trophy was introduced with an update called Trench Coat.
The purpose of this update was to deal with the threat that missiles like RPG 30 pose to the tank.
Trophy classify the missile, and launch countermeasure toward the target.
See video

 

[Jackal131]

מעיל רוח (en: Trench Coat) is a local designation of Trophy, not a different system or add-on upgrade, just a local Hebrew designation.

So, be a good boy and take your bullcrap elsewhere.

Let me give you some advice @Natan , you should listen to @DavidSling, he knows what he is talking about and he knows about the system.
You seem to know less than people that aren't even Israeli and come in here and throw around childish nonsense. There is no excuse that I know should know more about Trophy than you, yet I do, and your response is being disrespectful.

Considering this is the internet and I doubt you will apologize for such behavior I will just assume you feel very foolish for what you have done here.

 

[Exocet]

No I'm not, Trophy was introduced with an update called Trench Coat.
The purpose of this update was to deal with the threat that missiles like RPG 30 pose to the tank.
Trophy classify the missile, and launch countermeasure toward the target.
See video

What does it launch against ATGM's?

 

[Natan]

No I'm not, Trophy was introduced with an update called Trench Coat.

It isn't even funny.

The name "Trench Coat" refers ONLY to Trophy HV.

 

[Jackal131]

It isn't even funny.

The name "Trench Coat" refers ONLY to Trophy HV.

You are just digging deeper, you look silly as it is mate just ditch the thread and go do some reading.

 

[Kamil_baku]

You posted what the expert said. But you wrote RPG. There is not many anti tank RPG round in existance that flies at 350 meters per second. Are you sure the expert didn't say Rocket ?

Because if he said rocket then he is clearly referring to the LAW, which was 100% used in testing we saw the pictures of the destroyed LAW rocket after tests. LAW would take roughly 340 milliseconds to fly 50m. Meaning 300 millisecond reaction time is accurate not 150. Also remember different rockets different velocities. He said we can destroy rockets at 50m....that means some rockets depending on velocity.

Granted a 150 millisecond reaction time isnt impossible, the Russians EXPORT VERSION has a 70 millisecond reaction time. We don't even know how fast the Russian Army Version reacts. Its not impossible, just difficult.

The main goal of Turkey to use these systems against PKK or other enemies in middle east in near future... When was the last time you have a seen a terrorist with the LAW missiles? if he mentions that they can neutralize antitank missiles from 50m away, i am pretty sure that it would be RPG, which is almost everywhere and will be the main threat..

Do you really believe the Russians about the given specifications? if they would of have these systems... they could put it on Syrian tanks and change the direction of Syrian war...

We saw their latest tank, pulled away from Parade in May..

 

[Jackal131]

What does it launch against ATGM's?

Its standard hardkill if softkill fails.

The main goal of Turkey to use these systems against PKK or other enemies in middle east in near future... When was the last time you have a seen a terrorist with the LAW missiles? if he mentions that they can neutralize antitank missiles from 50m away, i am pretty sure that it would be RPG, which is almost everywhere and will be the main threat..

Do you really believe the Russians about the given specifications? if they would of have these systems... they could put it on Syrian tanks and change the direction of Syrian war...

We saw their latest tank, pulled away from Parade in May..

Well considering the LAW is faster, and a smaller target than AT RPG rounds, if you can hit a LAW within 50m then you can definitely hit an RPG at 50m.

You haven't properly read or understood what was discussed and you are reviving old topics.

 

[DavidSling]

It isn't even funny.

The name "Trench Coat" refers ONLY to Trophy HV.

Trench Coat is one of many updates that the system got since it's introduction.
Trench Coat isn't a seperate system, but an update that was implemented to the already deployed trophy.
We're talking about Heavy Vehicles in this thread, so I didn't understand what u meant by this comment.
Anyway, medium and light vehicles got different design of Trophy for obvious reasons as u can see in the video I posted in my previous comment.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Its standard hardkill if softkill fails.


Well considering the LAW is faster, and a smaller target than AT RPG rounds, if you can hit a LAW within 50m then you can definitely hit an RPG at 50m.

You haven't properly read or understood what was discussed and you are reviving old topics.

You still didnt answer my question about the Russian specifications...

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

This whole discussion is pointless.

The problem with trying to to do what the RPG-30 does is that depending on how sensitive the detection system (Like Trophy, KAPS or Futur AKKOR radar 3D) is you defeat it with a simple software upgrade. Something along the lines of ignoring projectiles below a certain size, if two projectiles come from the same direction staggered like that ignore the first, engage the second, etc... Also, every time you add another spoof projectile the system either gets bigger and heavier or your main projectile gets smaller and less effective. It's why the better the detection systems got in the cold war eventually decoys become pointless and you should just use the mass for more warheads. That's it.



...

 

[Jackal131]

This whole discussion is pointless.

The problem with trying to to do what the RPG-30 does is that depending on how sensitive the detection system (Like Trophy, KAPS or Futur AKKOR radar 3D) is you defeat it with a simple software upgrade. Something along the lines of ignoring projectiles below a certain size, if two projectiles come from the same direction staggered like that ignore the first, engage the second, etc... Also, every time you add another spoof projectile the system either gets bigger and heavier or your main projectile gets smaller and less effective. It's why the better the detection systems got in the cold war eventually decoys become pointless and you should just use the mass for more warheads. That's it.



...

Again I mentioned that in previous comments, that if it was a requirement that Akkor can defeat the RPG30 then the solution is possible through software.

You are only reading some of my posts, then trying to argue with me with the same points that I myself said in the previous page mate......

As for ignoring the precursor charge, possible, but if the precursor hits the vehicle as the APS tries to engage the actual threat then the shock of the hit could disrupt the accuracy of the APS, there is no margin for deviations in angle or timing when it comes to APS. The Israeli method is better, take them both out.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

Again I mentioned that in previous comments, that if it was a requirement that Akkor can defeat the RPG30 then the solution is possible through software.

You are only reading some of my posts, then trying to argue with me with the same points that I myself said in the previous page mate......
...

Really ?

Incorrect. Trophy cannot differentiate between RPG30s precursor rocket and the main rocket. That is why the Israelis have developed Trench Coat. Trench Coat gets added to a tank that already has a Trophy system. It was designed, developed and adopted specifically for engaging the RPG30 by launching a larger number of charges and destroying both the precursor and the main rocket.

If trophy could distinguish the RPG30 rockets then the Trench Coat upgrade would not have happened.
So even the upgraded Israeli systems don't ignore the precursor, they simply destroy both rockets.

You have read the brochures that say these systems ignore smaller projectiles and mistaken that for meaning smaller AT missiles. No what it means is that things like .50 cal and 14.5mm etc cannot set it off. That is all, it doesnt mean the system maps the outline of the missile and decides if its worth getting hit or not. That is ridiculous. No AT rocket regardless of size should bypass the APS. It doesnt have to be a Kornet to track the tank and leave it stuck in a warzone.

 

[-SINAN-]

As for ignoring the precursor charge, possible, but if the precursor hits the vehicle as the APS tries to engage the actual threat then the shock of the hit could disrupt the accuracy of the APS, there is no margin for deviations in angle or timing when it comes to APS. The Israeli method is better, take them both out.

And i gave your answer hours ago......

Mate, do you absolutely know that AKKOR needs a reset time for firing it's secondary projectile ? Can't you fire simultaneously or within a very short time frame.

I mean firing one to precursor charge and a second one to main charge ?

2-) Another method is if you can differentiate between the main charge and precursor charge, you can target the main charge. However you need a time-fuze instead of the proximity fuze.

While time-fuze would perform better against RPG-30, proximity fuze would perform better against likes of RPG-29 which has variable thrust..... This is a complex issue.

 

[era_shield]

Here is Iron Fist in TV...This episode was aired in 2008.

By KE stuff I mean saying Akkor is the first and only in the world to work against KE is nonsense since there are systems around almost 10 years doing it. The "expert" there doesn't look credible when he clearly lies.

He never says something like that in the video.

About variable thrust threats - Akkor's munitions have a proximity fuse exactly for that reason. FYI, you can find specs like this in the Akkor data sheet which KUL posted somewhere here a while ago.

And by the way, if you're looking at velocity up to 50m, the RPG is faster than the LAW because after a few meters the sustainer motor kicks in which increases its speed dramatically. You seem to be comparing only muzzle velocity but IIRC the LAW doesn't have a sustainer motor so this won't be correct. The PG-7V will speed up after about 5m while the LAW will slow down.