Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

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@cabatli_53 Bro, what do you think about Altay having a FC Radar ?

 

[cabatli_53]

@cabatli_53 Bro, what do you think about Altay having a FC Radar ?

Bro, Is it really a Fire control radar ?

 

[-------]

Bro, Is it really a Fire control radar ?

Just speculating, more likely to be a muzzle velocity radar for tests. But, India is going to integrate radar for their tank modernization, Aselsan may follow developments..

Final version of Arjun with Radar, doesn't bare resemblance to Altay panel with the bolts?

 

[CHI RULES]

Which Tank barrel is more effective 120MM Western style or Ruskies 125MM.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

...

The RPG-30, like the RPG-27, is a man-portable, disposable anti-tank rocket launcher with a single shot capacity. Unlike the RPG-27 however, there is a smaller diameter precursor round in a side tube, in addition to the main round in the main tube. The precursor round is fired shortly before the main round and acts as a decoy, tricking the target's active protection system (APS) into engaging it. The APS is not ready to engage again until 0.2–0.4 seconds later, allowing the main round time to hit the target.

But you're ignoring the most important part of Trophy (Like KAPS) that handles such decoys. The radars are 3D, meaning that they can not only know the velocity of the projectile (in this case the RPG-30) but also its exact shape. This way it can discriminate against different threats. Basically it knows to intercept RPG-29, but ignore RPG-7. Or intercept Kornet-E but ignore Sagger. The reason for that is to avoid incidents that occurred in Lebanon in 2006, where Hezbollah fired volleys of old and weak ATGMs (Sagger, Milan) at the Merkava to weaken its armor, and then fire Kornet and Metis missiles to penetrate the weakened armor. A Trophy system that cannot classify targets in such a scenario would have been depleted before the Kornet and Metis missiles were fired, thus not really doing its job.

A decoy the size of a 20-30mm shell will NOT trigger the Trophy even though it cannot be classified as a known threat, simply because it's not big enough to have a warhead large enough to penetrate the armor.

In 2014 in Gaza some of the projectiles fired at the Merkava 4 weren't even intercepted simply because the Trophy's computer calculated and determined that they will not penetrate and will not cause any module damage (exterior modules - sights, cannon, radars).

Why focus on the physical limits of the Trophy's interceptor (Like KAPS), if its sensors will just choose to ignore the decoy in the first place? Apply this to every APS that can discriminate between targets. The Trophy's sensor package allowed it to discriminate decoys from real warheads even from the very beginning in 2009 when it was introduced.


Altay MBT Program | Page 109

Aselsan Reveals AKKOR Active Protection System for Armored Vehicles

The KAPS (Korean Active Protection System) is similar. It is capable of intercepting Metis-M ATGM (Anti-tank guided missile) or also Kornet ATGM (over 250 m/s). Its radars provide information about the speed and size of the projectile like Trophy. If it matches the characteristics of an already known threat then it can decide if to intercept it or not. If not, it calculates the possible size of the warhead and then can decide if to intercept or not, based on possible penetration power and the armor protection on the side it will hit.

There is no reason why the ‘system AKKOR’ can not also do the same thing. Also do not forget :

Bubblegum Crisis (May 13, 2015) : ” The unique feature of the system is the fact that it is not only defensive but offensive as well. To intercept a threat heading toward the tank, the system analyzes its path, its speed but also the original location-shooting.

The origin of the shot will be immediately targeted to eliminate the threat by the Tank itself, others nearby Tanks support or air support (F-16, Atak T129 or Anka armed).”

...

 

[Yellow-place]

 

[Jackal131]

...

The RPG-30, like the RPG-27, is a man-portable, disposable anti-tank rocket launcher with a single shot capacity. Unlike the RPG-27 however, there is a smaller diameter precursor round in a side tube, in addition to the main round in the main tube. The precursor round is fired shortly before the main round and acts as a decoy, tricking the target's active protection system (APS) into engaging it. The APS is not ready to engage again until 0.2–0.4 seconds later, allowing the main round time to hit the target.

But you're ignoring the most important part of Trophy (Like KAPS) that handles such decoys. The radars are 3D, meaning that they can not only know the velocity of the projectile (in this case the RPG-30) but also its exact shape. This way it can discriminate against different threats. Basically it knows to intercept RPG-29, but ignore RPG-7. Or intercept Kornet-E but ignore Sagger. The reason for that is to avoid incidents that occurred in Lebanon in 2006, where Hezbollah fired volleys of old and weak ATGMs (Sagger, Milan) at the Merkava to weaken its armor, and then fire Kornet and Metis missiles to penetrate the weakened armor. A Trophy system that cannot classify targets in such a scenario would have been depleted before the Kornet and Metis missiles were fired, thus not really doing its job.

A decoy the size of a 20-30mm shell will NOT trigger the Trophy even though it cannot be classified as a known threat, simply because it's not big enough to have a warhead large enough to penetrate the armor.

In 2014 in Gaza some of the projectiles fired at the Merkava 4 weren't even intercepted simply because the Trophy's computer calculated and determined that they will not penetrate and will not cause any module damage (exterior modules - sights, cannon, radars).

Why focus on the physical limits of the Trophy's interceptor (Like KAPS), if its sensors will just choose to ignore the decoy in the first place? Apply this to every APS that can discriminate between targets. The Trophy's sensor package allowed it to discriminate decoys from real warheads even from the very beginning in 2009 when it was introduced.


Altay MBT Program | Page 109

Aselsan Reveals AKKOR Active Protection System for Armored Vehicles

The KAPS (Korean Active Protection System) is similar. It is capable of intercepting Metis-M ATGM (Anti-tank guided missile) or also Kornet ATGM (over 250 m/s). Its radars provide information about the speed and size of the projectile like Trophy. If it matches the characteristics of an already known threat then it can decide if to intercept it or not. If not, it calculates the possible size of the warhead and then can decide if to intercept or not, based on possible penetration power and the armor protection on the side it will hit.

There is no reason why the ‘system AKKOR’ can not also do the same thing. Also do not forget :




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Incorrect. Trophy cannot differentiate between RPG30s precursor rocket and the main rocket. That is why the Israelis have developed Trench Coat. Trench Coat gets added to a tank that already has a Trophy system. It was designed, developed and adopted specifically for engaging the RPG30 by launching a larger number of charges and destroying both the precursor and the main rocket.

If trophy could distinguish the RPG30 rockets then the Trench Coat upgrade would not have happened.
So even the upgraded Israeli systems don't ignore the precursor, they simply destroy both rockets.

You have read the brochures that say these systems ignore smaller projectiles and mistaken that for meaning smaller AT missiles. No what it means is that things like .50 cal and 14.5mm etc cannot set it off. That is all, it doesnt mean the system maps the outline of the missile and decides if its worth getting hit or not. That is ridiculous. No AT rocket regardless of size should bypass the APS. It doesnt have to be a Kornet to track the tank and leave it stuck in a warzone.

 

[Exocet]

@500 @Natan @DavidSling Can you comment on this issue?

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

Incorrect. Trophy cannot differentiate between RPG30s precursor rocket and the main rocket. That is why the Israelis have developed Trench Coat. Trench Coat gets added to a tank that already has a Trophy system. It was designed, developed and adopted specifically for engaging the RPG30 by launching a larger number of charges and destroying both the precursor and the main rocket.

If trophy could distinguish the RPG30 rockets then the Trench Coat upgrade would not have happened.
So even the upgraded Israeli systems don't ignore the precursor, they simply destroy both rockets.

You have read the brochures that say these systems ignore smaller projectiles and mistaken that for meaning smaller AT missiles. No what it means is that things like .50 cal and 14.5mm etc cannot set it off. That is all, it doesnt mean the system maps the outline of the missile and decides if its worth getting hit or not. That is ridiculous. No AT rocket regardless of size should bypass the APS. It doesnt have to be a Kornet to track the tank and leave it stuck in a warzone.

If ! Because they come exactly - millimeter meadows (3D radar) - in the same direction, but they do not go simultaneously, not the same size and not the same speed. More at present, nobody knows how work Trench Coat, never seen and why he was created exactly.



...

 

[Natan]

Incorrect. Trophy cannot differentiate between RPG30s precursor rocket and the main rocket. That is why the Israelis have developed Trench Coat. Trench Coat gets added to a tank that already has a Trophy system. It was designed, developed and adopted specifically for engaging the RPG30 by launching a larger number of charges and destroying both the precursor and the main rocket.

If trophy could distinguish the RPG30 rockets then the Trench Coat upgrade would not have happened.
So even the upgraded Israeli systems don't ignore the precursor, they simply destroy both rockets.

You have read the brochures that say these systems ignore smaller projectiles and mistaken that for meaning smaller AT missiles. No what it means is that things like .50 cal and 14.5mm etc cannot set it off. That is all, it doesnt mean the system maps the outline of the missile and decides if its worth getting hit or not. That is ridiculous. No AT rocket regardless of size should bypass the APS. It doesnt have to be a Kornet to track the tank and leave it stuck in a warzone.

מעיל רוח (en: Trench Coat) is a local designation of Trophy, not a different system or add-on upgrade, just a local Hebrew designation.

So, be a good boy and take your bullcrap elsewhere.

 

[Exocet]

מעיל רוח (en: Trench Coat) is a local designation of Trophy, not a different system or add-on upgrade, just a local Hebrew designation.

So, be a good boy and take your bullcrap elsewhere.

What can you say about Trophy's performance against RPG-30?

 

[Natan]

What can you say about Trophy's performance against RPG-30?

Nothing.

Providing any detailed information about Trophy's performance against potential threats is a serious OPSEC violation.

 

[-SINAN-]

מעיל רוח (en: Trench Coat) is a local designation of Trophy, not a different system or add-on upgrade, just a local Hebrew designation.

So, be a good boy and take your bullcrap elsewhere.

Yo, he never insulted anybody here, he might be wrong but show some manners. This is not your backyard.

In 2012 Israel Defense reported that the Rafael weapons development authority has developed a defense system, "Trench Coat", against the RPG-30, to supplement the existing Trophy. It consists of a 360-degree radar that detects all threats and launches 17 projectiles, of which one should strike the incoming missile.

RPG-30 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing.

Providing any detailed information about Trophy's performance against potential threats is a serious OPSEC violation.

Then don't come here and insult our members.

 

[DavidSling]

Incorrect. Trophy cannot differentiate between RPG30s precursor rocket and the main rocket. That is why the Israelis have developed Trench Coat. Trench Coat gets added to a tank that already has a Trophy system. It was designed, developed and adopted specifically for engaging the RPG30 by launching a larger number of charges and destroying both the precursor and the main rocket.

If trophy could distinguish the RPG30 rockets then the Trench Coat upgrade would not have happened.
So even the upgraded Israeli systems don't ignore the precursor, they simply destroy both rockets.

You have read the brochures that say these systems ignore smaller projectiles and mistaken that for meaning smaller AT missiles. No what it means is that things like .50 cal and 14.5mm etc cannot set it off. That is all, it doesnt mean the system maps the outline of the missile and decides if its worth getting hit or not. That is ridiculous. No AT rocket regardless of size should bypass the APS. It doesnt have to be a Kornet to track the tank and leave it stuck in a warzone.

Totaly agree with this comment, Trophy classified the launched missiles and shoot countermeasure toward the threat.
Trench coat was developed as a countermeasure against missiles with multiple warheads (see RPG 30)
Trophy is automatic system, and has very short reloading time.
Trophy can't take down bullets, but any size of missile is currently interceptable by this system.
Trophy is being constantly updated against modern threats, and soon will be introduce with a countermeasure against kinetic threats aswell.

 

[Natan]

In 2012 Israel Defense reported that the Rafael weapons development authority has developed a defense system, "Trench Coat", against the RPG-30, to supplement the existing Trophy. It consists of a 360-degree radar that detects all threats and launches 17 projectiles, of which one should strike the incoming missile.

Rafael is developing additional active protection systems, but the name "Trench Coat" refers ONLY to Trophy.
No additional / supplementary APS beyond Trophy (= "Trech Coat") entered service, entered serial production, or even shown by Rafael.

If you think that from reading Israel Defense you know something about Trophy (= "Trench Coat") I don't, you are wrong.

Totaly agree with this comment, Trophy classified the launched missiles and shoot countermeasure toward the threat.
Trench coat was developed as a countermeasure against missiles with multiple warheads (see RPG 30)
Trophy is automatic system, and has very short reloading time.
Trophy can't take down bullets, but any size of missile is currently interceptable by this system.
Trophy is being constantly updated against modern threats, and soon will be introduce with a countermeasure against kinetic threats aswell.

WTF? You are confusing "Trench Coat" (מעיל רוח) with Blazer ERA.