Air Chief Marshall PAF Plz return Capt Lutz uniform back to his family:--

[Asad-Ali]

Hum PAKISTANI kisi ko Bus main window ke side wali seat nai detey or ye itni bari war trophy dey dain? , chaddo ji jaan deyo

 

[Taygibay]

... Just to be morally fair.

It was included de facto, Oscar.
One universal standpoint/rule.

It makes life simpler and more honest.

Have a good day

 

[Raider 21]

When it comes to Israel, what could be right or wrong? They prove you wrong when its in their interest, they even kill you when it comes to their intersts. They are different kind of creatures, not normal humans.
No need to show a goodwill gesture to them.

Just like Pakistan....except the Israelis do it better and they do it for their people. Pakistan is a poor country with rich people....hence the average person does not have that much compared to an average person living in Israel.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Just like Pakistan....except the Israelis do it better and they do it for their people. Pakistan is a poor country with rich people....hence the average person does not have that much compared to an average person living in Israel.

Yeah I know we are very bad, but still Israel has a full potential to be a lethal friend.

 

[Inception-06]

NO !

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan dear friend, old man,

A very noble and galant action it would be!

I don't have to tell you that at this junction Pak State can use some diplomatic points... especially in the US media with such a gesture.

When will your people see longer than their nose is?

Time for some coupe de grace... brilliant idea from your good self this!

I fear it is going to fall on deaf ears as usual.

Israel is not your natural enemy...why some in your good country are bent upon making it one?

When Gen Zia could use Israeli equipment in AF adventure and mullahs in Iran deal with them behind the scenes... why this hatred?

Time for thinking on grand geopolitical scale...in this world of geo-political/geo-economic flux.... Pak can and must carve out a niché for itself... how else would you ever be a Great Regional Power of Global Consequence?

I fear your elite will prove to be yet again what they are...

You keep trying, my friend!

Regards,

Mangus

Hi,

You know---it is just a pair dungarees---which would have such a massive effect if displayed on the world forum---.

There is a reason that Israel does not want to admit it happened---the cloak of invincibility fractures---.

If one man can---then another one can as well---.

People would begin to ask---" How did he do it "? What game plan was involved---what tactics and strategy were involved---what drove him to accomplish this feat---?

These are massive questions that can have a monumental effect on the performance of a fighter pilot---.

Now---you know---why does israel not admit to own him---. Simple reason---.

Once the 4 minute mile record is broken-----!!!!!!

Only one person has to climb to the top---then there would be a long line of those getting to the top---that is when the impossible becomes possible.

Israel is our enemy our desire of friendship not change the truth that israel is our enemy and will be

Hi,

And how so----!!!

 

[TOPGUN]

Not going to happen , the family already got their closure many may years ago case closed please close this dumb thread.

 

[mingle]

NO !

Have u seen Russian war museum? It's full of iron cross badges and German uniforms they didn't gave them back to families of fallen soldiers.

 

[airmarshal]

Israel is already an enemy and Israel is helping India and is helping terrorists in Afghanistan. We can no longer close our eyes to Israeli threat and it has been high time we need to realize this and take the proxy war Israel launched to Israeli door step.

Israeli PM did not say Israel is an enemy of Pakistan. He was goaded into saying bad things about Pakistan by Indian interviewers which is very typical of them. But he did not say anything against us.

The fact is Arabs are defeated, miltarily and politically. Israel is stronger than ever. Such is the depravity of Muslim world that its fighting Saudi and Iran incited sectarian war. It is in no position to put up a joint and united front. So Pakistanis who dream of a wider Arab/Muslim world united common cause, should set aside such dreams for now. Muslim world is going to go through worse than what currently its state is before things get better.

 

[Vortex]

You know what, i receve i24 channel. It's Israeli channel. I was watching their program about technologies developpe by Israeli. And today it was about the Technium centre.

There was a french Jewish so was talking about where is implanted his company... Do you know what he replied to this question ?

He said my company is not in USA not in France not in... Pakistan !!!!

Why mentioning Pakistan?
Then i realised that whatever we want to believe, Pakistan yes is always in their mind.

But the realised too that they are investing in the education and are working to create the technologies of tomorrow.




And what are we doing ?

 

[BHarwana]

Israeli PM did not say Israel is an enemy of Pakistan. He was goaded into saying bad things about Pakistan by Indian interviewers which is very typical of them. But he did not say anything against us.

The fact is Arabs are defeated, miltarily and politically. Israel is stronger than ever. Such is the depravity of Muslim world that its fighting Saudi and Iran incited sectarian war. It is in no position to put up a joint and united front. So Pakistanis who dream of a wider Arab/Muslim world united common cause, should set aside such dreams for now. Muslim world is going to go through worse than what currently its state is before things get better.

My friend you have made very good points that Palestine is Arab problem and not Pakistan's problem. Yes I would agree that Palestine is Arab issue but Israel is not a country. Israel is a Jewish terrorist regime just llike ISIS and TTP that has been working against Pakistan for a long time. Just because America would recognized Israel does and provides Israel weapons does not means that we Pakistanis will also consider Israel to be not our enemies. Look at history ISIS and Israel both came from Europe and were funded by same country USA. The development of ISIS and Israel happened in the same manner. Israeli Jew and ISIS flocked to middle east from Europe in the same way and same purpose. Why hate ISIS then and why not hate Israel? Now USA is using the same model of Israel's injection in middle east on ISIS then only difference is that Muslims were not able to defeat Israel back then but presently Muslims are able to defeat ISIS. So if you think that time and New born people that don't know about history will change any thing what has been done in Middle east than you are wrong because Pakistan remembers and Israel never said it is Pakistan's enemy but Israel has always acted as Pakistan's enemy.

 

[Chak Bamu]

View attachment 449086 What the US Army allows and considers legal as war trophies including personal uniforms.

Individuals are not allowed to bring trophies back, but it can be brought back as a property of the military. Per all US Army guidelines, these are also permissible under the Geneva convention.

A flight coverall is a LEGAL war trophy per US military regulations and has no moral or ethical ambiguity in terms of both the geneva convention and US state law. Uniforms of Arab national personnel exist both in Israeli museums and unIforms of combatants exist in all US military museums.Hence, if such an objection is made to the Pakistani military indulging in such activities then the same objection should be made under both Moral and Ethical minimal ideals to the country of residence or dual nationality.

Hence I respectfully disagree with the premise and moral standing of this post.
But I will state that as a stunt it was needless and unwarranted, especially as it is clear that it was meant as a message to the steamy makeout between Israel and India happening currently.

I leave the above for others to decide their opinions.

Great Post. It has helped change my mind. I had taken a humanist stance on this issue. While it still carries weight, I think that legalistic approach is better. Israel has done us no favors and is busy being a bully. Majority of Israeli Jews support their army in all that is does. Making a point based on humanism may be morally correct, but it is legally absurd in absence of a request by Israelis when they do not even acknowledge existence of their shot down pilot.

If Pakistan wishes to make a point based on an analysis of potential costs and benefits, I have no problem with it. If anything, this confirms that what we have read and heard is not a fiction. Israel can not expect anything but hostility from Pakistan and Pakistanis when it acts the way it does.

Pakistan's stance has been based on Quaid-e-Azam, Iqbal, & other luminaries's thoughts and actions from before Pakistan was formed. Opposing Israel is a principled stance, and Pakistan is doing nothing wrong with sticking to it. It is not about whether Arabs prefer Pakistan or India or their respective stances. It is about Palestinian suffering and our connection to it. If it made sense to side with Palestinians as they suffered under British colonialsim due to our shared experience, it still makes sense to oppose a colonial project when the dispossessed are suffering for a number of generations and in more horrific manner than 1930s.

 

[Raider 21]

My friend you have made very good points that Palestine is Arab problem and not Pakistan's problem. Yes I would agree that Palestine is Arab issue but Israel is not a country. Israel is a Jewish terrorist regime just llike ISIS and TTP that has been working against Pakistan for a long time. Just because America would recognized Israel does and provides Israel weapons does not means that we Pakistanis will also consider Israel to be not our enemies. Look at history ISIS and Israel both came from Europe and were funded by same country USA. The development of ISIS and Israel happened in the same manner. Israeli Jew and ISIS flocked to middle east from Europe in the same way and same purpose. Why hate ISIS then and why not hate Israel? Now USA is using the same model of Israel's injection in middle east on ISIS then only difference is that Muslims were not able to defeat Israel back then but presently Muslims are able to defeat ISIS. So if you think that time and New born people that don't know about history will change any thing what has been done in Middle east than you are wrong because Pakistan remembers and Israel never said it is Pakistan's enemy but Israel has always acted as Pakistan's enemy.

Interesting....all about religion...justifies in killing each other and keeping up the game of stupidity.

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi that uniform can or should be returned once IAF or government accept the downing of the
Pilot and through proper channel return it back to Israel
But we should consider one more probability we might have taken this route in musharaff era
Which couldn’t get through may be
Thx

 

[Ocean]

However if to keep a dead pilot’s shirt makes some people ‘Proud’ and retuning it compromises “Honour” of the Muslim Ummah! Keep it till kingdom come.

If it was a matter of Ummahs honor then PAF would have given it Arab states to keep it in their museum. But if you still think that keeping a war trophy which is a reminder to an adversary that refuses to accept shooting down of it jets , is an honor then so be it.

Also a war trophy is a war trophy , where someones emotional blabbering about honor and dishonor, that this is a shirt or this is a shoulder badge or this is an aircraft engine, does not matter.

Pakistan also takes away indian flags as war trophies along loc skirmishes ,so now one should start preaching pakistanis that keeping a flag as war trophy carries no honor so you must return it back.

The purpose of it is always to effect the morale of other forces. And their is nothing unethical about it. Some flag, or badge, or unfirom is not a part of someones dead body which has been desecrated.

Returning the dead pilots' shirt does not indicate a desire for friendship. It simply indicates a generosity of spirit, nobility and compassion.

There was a time when Muslims were famous for these simple human Virtues. The great warrior Sultan Salahuddin Ayubi sent his own physician to treat Richard the Lion heart when he was sick. Salahuddin is admired for his chivalry all over Europe to this day. Abu bin Adham refused to give up his son’s killer because he had given him sanctuary in his tent.

There is a difference here.
Those people that these rulers showed generosity to were ALIVE, NOT DEAD , can we recall 2016 border skirmshes between paksitan and afghanistan? Despite opening a needless front against pakistan and killing our army major same afghans came back begging us provide meidcal help to same officers who ere attacking our forces. And we did give them help which NO other country in the world would have done to such lame aggressors.

We Pakistanis acted even more magnanimous then those past rulers you have mentioned here.

Of course times have since changed attitude of the followers of the religion of peace.

Nope not when it comes to war.
Pretty ironic on one hand he is using humanity to convince others to return the coverall, but just over not returning that he is judging all the followers of islams attitude and levels of faith.
That just shows your inner narrow mindedness and bigotry and hatred for muslims or rather for "followers of religion of peace" (as you put it yourself)

Yes if not returning an coverall but doing many other things that are in line with humanity , like treating kargil wars downed mig 27 pilot Kambampati Nachiketa with respect and providing him medical assistance ,makes us evil so be it. Diseases could be cured but a bigotry ;harbored with intention to not ever abandon it, cant be cured.

---------


As of on topic as i said before, Mastan khans issue is he knows he never WAS ,never WILL be capable enough to become a part pf a professional force like PAF and PA , but as he cant absorb this fact and move on , he needs his daily and weekly quota of bashing Paf in some way, to rail PA for no good reason. Even more ironic is when some ex serviceman officers from pa and PAF on this site try to put things in perspective before mastan khan , like blain2 or bilalkhan 777 , Mastan khan starts making needless personal attacks on them by pulling in mentions of negative incidents hapoened with Paf and Paf many decades back, like for instance once he brought up downing of Atlantique and blamed bilal khan and Paf for that.

The man cant get over the fact he is not relevant and most he could achieve is obtain an online fan following by posting some extremely diverging ,non conformist views, or anecdotes learned form reading osmand so history books, Sorry but at most it could only gain you online following but nothing practical in life.