2 '45000' tons modified Vikrant aircraft carriers?

[PARIKRAMA]

Gorky stays afloat for another 35yrs. - I'll bet the best bottle of scotch.

IN can make it possible but practical sense should be avoided. baku keel was laid in 1982 and was commissioned in 1987. A normal ships life is 50 years which makes it 2037 types max for 50 years
INS vikramaditya was handed over to In in 2013 end with a comprehensive 20 years warranty running upto 2033 after a deep upgrade.
Beyond it we may use it either with reduced ops or with more repairs services or as standy.
Thats the only way we will suck out 5-10 years of juice.
5 years beyond 2033 means 2038 - 50 years + for baku (25 years for IN)
10 years means 2043 means 55-56 years for baku (30 years for IN)
15 more years beyond 2033 means 2048 years (35 years for IN)

Unless we change Baku/Gorky/Vikramaditya into a training platform beyond 2033-38 types, we are looking at a massive cost escalation with weapon systems fit in which should go to more important ships like guns and barak 8s

@AUSTERLITZ Sir 5 carriers plan is for 2040. The nuke carriers first will come in late 2028-30 and second one closer to 2038-40. IAC1 first should be in 2019 (although target is navy day dec 5th 2018), second should come in 2028 types and third one around 2037 types.. thats what source said.. 2030 nothing possible other than max 2 IAC 1 carriers and possibly sea trials for N ACC.

The uber costly SSN projects would be capped at max 12 so first 6 will have follow on 6
SSBn will be 8 , 3 arihant class and 5 bigger ones

All as per source..expected by 2040 - 5 SSN and 5 SSBNs.. thats the IN plan for 25 years

Officially its 200 ships by 2027 (198 ships) and will target 250+ by 2042.

 

[AMCA]

Oops. Indian oceon is massive but my case still stands. I don't believe India has many interests in the Indian oceon to protect. Does it have like 20 islands thst need protecting? No

572+ Islands to protect in our Eastern side and 36 Islands in West! Plus a few down south.

 

[Stag112]

No I don't have a bias. I was talking logically. Aircraft carriers main aim is to be able to project power outside your borders. If India's aim is to be a powerful country in its nearby region you already have su-30 which I believe has quite some range. Aircraft carriers are for examples when UK wants to attack Argentina. If UK wanted to attack France or Netherlands let's say it wouldn't really need an AC, as an airbase in the south of England and a plane can easily go bomb the position, refuel if needed and come back.

Why was my Egypt example hilarious. I choose egypt specifically. Reason being it's not very close to India thus a AC is a great option to use in that instance, it has a weak navy but a decent airforce.

My point was currently India is stronger than Pakistan but weaker than China. In that case China can possible threaten India in the Indian ocean in the near future right? And that isn't too far from India borders? Would China feel more threatened away from its borders with Indias AC or let's say if India had much more advanced diesel AIP submarines and a combined stronger airforce etc. What I'm trying to say is India doesn't have a 2000trillion economy. Why spend so much on AC when it wouldn't be so useful, when that money can be spent on other things that will be more appropriate for India defence needs. More submarines, more aircraft etc. That's my opinion.

Oops. Indian oceon is massive but my case still stands. I don't believe India has many interests in the Indian oceon to protect. Does it have like 20 islands thst need protecting? No

Ok if you read carefully we are discussing the same here. Infact I have said so on this very thread I am not convinced with the role of aircraft carriers (specifically many CBGs) and we should have sub surface fleet instead.Others are disagreeing here, but nobody is talking about becoming a superpower. That comment of yours put your entire point negatively.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Wonderful idea if true. But INS Vishal is already a reality and most important part of future Aircraft carrier program. But these 2 additional aircraft carrier will make IOR region more safer and death trap for our enemies. Can be constructed on time as well

 

[surya kiran]

One Vikrant class in construction and 2 more follow on's - 3- 45K ton carriers,
One Vishal class confirmed Nuke carrier, plus one follow on - 2 - 65k+ Nuke Prop Carriers
Plus one Vikramaditya - 1- Gorky

that puts total 6 - 1 IAC1 + 2IAC M + 2 IAC2 + 1Gorky, This just got interesting.

Wait till you find out publicly how many SSN we are planning. I am stocking up on L&T

 

[H.B.]

@PARIKRAMA Per your source, 5-6 AC by 2045 in addition to 4 LPD and some battle cruisers within this timeframe.

It will mean IOR dominance plus some more. Question is where will the some more head to? If this scenario plays out, expect strong patrolling in SCS and Mediterranean.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA Per your source, 5-6 AC by 2045 in addition to 4 LPD and some battle cruisers within this timeframe.

It will mean IOR dominance plus some more. Question is where will the some more headed to? If this scenario plays out, expect strong patrolling in SCS and Mediterranean.

Well Sir, i had asked only about ACC.. LPDs and Battle Cruiser programs i have to check.. Its true IN was interested for few LPDs but i doubt if we will have everything.. i mean there are many people who had talked about IN having dedicated 4 LPDs and 4 LHDs especially where in LHD's they wanted a VSTOL strike fighter aka F35... The plan as of now dont seems to suggest at least to me about having LHD/LPD in huge number. We may get around 1 LPD for specific ops under A&N command. More i dont know as its deployment region seems a bit unanswered. Similar is the case of LHD where the ACC themselves takes care of all the needs, LHD and F35 package mind you is even more extreme, bcz the numbers of strike fighters is far far limited for cost of operations versus benefits. The Helos in individual ships itself is a issue as of now.. we have still the age old sea kings and replacements S70B will be signed soon but in limited numbers. The other platforms need dedicated ASW helos.. Thus untill the needs of such ships are fulfilled, having a dedicated LHD is a planners nightmare scenario.

Battle cruiser like design may be explored but i think at best we can get is a P18 DDG program of 3-4 ships in that time frame. A nuke cruiser is way out of the equation atm.

Patrolling for all IN will do is IOR, in the east max from A&N to Singapore types and in the west Seychelles-Mauritius - Chabahar.. You can be sure SCS wont be under IN plan of patrolling anytime during the said period. For IN its IOR thats all they care about and plan about....

For SCS Japan and USA is more than enough for such roles along with Australia and rest of nations in the vicinity like Philippines and Vietnam.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Adding to some more

The 5 CBGs (6 including Gorky) was also tweeted by S Jha back in December beginning, right at the time when Scorpene follow on possible orders were leaked to media.

My source says this is to ensure that the shipyard constructing the ships which has learned the expensive methodology + SAIL who has invested a lot for HY steel for the Carriers and numerous other MSME and MIC as a whole benefit with continuous churning of ships with the new one in all probability replacing the ageing one at an average production of 1 carrier every 7 years and induction in 8-9 years post trials.

Here is his tweet back from December.. Don know if its posted here or not..

https://twitter.com/x/status/672337845890121728

and this is what IN plan uptill 2030 asked indigenous industry help for STOBAR carriers (IAC1). Notice the word class of Ships (Plural)

View attachment 287847

and here is another source based info
IN plans to have a total of 600+ aircraft by 2040 in a ambitious 25 year aircraft plan for ship based and shore based. These planes comprise of jets and turbo prob. helos are completely different.

Now that number is not a mini airforce its almost 60-70% of the AF strength by 2040 ...

5 carrier would mean additional support ship- I don't understand what is the idea behind having so many ACs in such less time(2030)- All this seem like hot air without much being done on building Area defense capable destroyers having Anti-Ballistic missile capability- The thing is that when you got 5 ACs you are an offensive Beast and are poking your noses in other countries- these countries can get pissed and launch Ballistic missiles on your country so you need additional destroyers and Battle cruisers which can guard your country's air-space along with the fleet protecting the carrier- Use the same logic with SSBN of enemy country- you would need additional SSNs to hunt and keep a tag on most If not all your enemies SSBNs and SSGNs-

Then comes the use of 5 ACs- once you have such force projection- There has to be proper LHD, LPD fleet able to make the use of that projected force- along with that may be a core strong marine force which with their own world class weaponry- So I don't see where we are going with 5 CVBGs- without all this- I may have missed many more points- Unless we have a 10 trillion USD economy with 3-4 trillion in reserves- and definite and set strategic goals to go with- It is useless to have 5 CVBGs- 3 carriers seems more than enough-

However I agree with you that the Navy needs to maintain a force of 300-400 Combat Aircraft and support planes along with force-multipliers- It needs to have Its own Airforce culture as soon as possible-

 

[H.B.]

Well Sir, i had asked only about ACC.. LPDs and Battle Cruiser programs i have to check.. Its true IN was interested for few LPDs but i doubt if we will have everything.. i mean there are many people who had talked about IN having dedicated 4 LPDs and 4 LHDs especially where in LHD's they wanted a VSTOL strike fighter aka F35... The plan as of now dont seems to suggest at least to me about having LHD/LPD in huge number. We may get around 1 LPD for specific ops under A&N command. More i dont know as its deployment region seems a bit unanswered. Similar is the case of LHD where the ACC themselves takes care of all the needs, LHD and F35 package mind you is even more extreme, bcz the numbers of strike fighters is far far limited for cost of operations versus benefits. The Helos in individual ships itself is a issue as of now.. we have still the age old sea kings and replacements S70B will be signed soon but in limited numbers. The other platforms need dedicated ASW helos.. Thus untill the needs of such ships are fulfilled, having a dedicated LHD is a planners nightmare scenario.

Battle cruiser like design may be explored but i think at best we can get is a P18 DDG program of 3-4 ships in that time frame. A nuke cruiser is way out of the equation atm.

Patrolling for all IN will do is IOR, in the east max from A&N to Singapore types and in the west Seychelles-Mauritius - Chabahar.. You can be sure SCS wont be under IN plan of patrolling anytime during the said period. For IN its IOR thats all they care about and plan about....

For SCS Japan and USA is more than enough for such roles along with Australia and rest of nations in the vicinity like Philippines and Vietnam.

Wasn't there an RFI for 4 LPD? Unless it is scapped, I believe the plan is on. Only patrolling IOR with a force of 6 AC and 4 LPD cannot be justified. If IN acquires these assests, it has to expand scope beyond IOR, whether declared or not. Dominating IOR can be done with 4 AC + 2 LPD max.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Wasn't there an RFI for 4 LPD? Unless it is scapped, I believe the plan is on. Only patrolling IOR with a force of 6 AC and 4 LPD cannot be justified. If IN acquires these assests, it has to expand scope beyond IOR, whether declared or not. Dominating IOR can be done with 4 AC + 2 LPD max.

Well sir RFI was issued in with tender date 17/02/2011 to 07/03/2011. The deal size presumed was Rs 16,000 crores with exchange equivalent at $2.6 Bn @61.5 USD/INR

This RFI is as of date not borne any fruit..
Since USD/INR is now 67 and will soon reach perhaps 70, there is already a cost appreciation of 10% owing to just currency part. The platforms itself bidded may also use the time of last 5 years as a excuse for a new price.
I see the biggest hurdle in the form of DPP 2011 and since now DPP 2016 is about to be launched which states clearly above Rs 2000 Crs deal to adhere to DPP rule book, offsets and also the technology transfer wanted..
All this makes me feel the tender will be scrapped and request for rebidding will be initiated.


@Abingdonboy :
I need a honest opinion here.. if suppose IN goes for the 4 LHD as per the old tender RFI, do you think it will be feasible to have 4 mini ACC with helos of almost 35 tonnes as defined by RFI when our rest of naval fleet does not have enough helos..
The S70B will come but in limited numbers and our requirement is much much larger... Where do you see the LPD/LHD to fit in? i see a probable 1 for A&N ops other than that already if plan is for 5 CBGs do we still require 4 LHD/LPD?

 

[kaykay]

In my personal opinion, 3 CVs are more than enough to meet out requirements in next 2 decades ( irrespective of our final decision to go for more or not). Also Its high time Indian navy focus on modern ASW helis in good numbers as soon we'll have a lot of modern warships who will need more than 70 ASW helis altogether.

 

[Archie]

All aircraft carrier acquisition beyond Vishal is just speculation at the moment

What's the use of a Carrier, if you can't provide it with adequate Battle group and state of the art Airwing

Navy has other needs that are to be met before money is spent on a 4th carrier

The following procurements have to be made before we spend our tax payer money on INS Vijay

12 minesweepers @ 2 Billion USD
76 NMRH @ 5 Billion USD
59 NLUH @ 1 Billion USD
6+3 SSK @ 12 Billion USD
6 SSN @ 10 Billion USD

That's 30 Billion USD of orders which should be finalised before keel of INS Vishal is laid

And INS Vijay should not even be planned before the above warships are fully inducted

 

[Ankit Kumar]

6ssn for 10 billion dollars ? WTF are we planning?
6 YANSEN will cost 7.2 Billion dollars.

 

[kaykay]

6ssn for 10 billion dollars ? WTF are we planning?
6 YANSEN will cost 7.2 Billion dollars.

Yasen is being rolled out as we talk but our Indigenous SSNs will be ready only in next decade. Also revised cost for 2nd Yasen is beyond 3 Billion USD.

 

[PARIKRAMA]