Why Islam took a violent and intolerant turn in Pakistan

[Tiger Awan]

I am not asking anyone to completely stop believing in quran. My argument has two parts

1) People need to realise that there might be parts of quran which might not be relevant anymore. Yes you believe that the words of God as written in the quran are eternal. But it was written in a society very different from the one you or I live in today. Question the teachings of the quran. If they are indeed correct as you believe them to be, so much the better. If not leave those parts out. Believe in the rest of the quran. Go about doing this questioning systematically and logically.

well i haven't until now find a problem not answered by Islam. Also Its part of belief that the beauty of Islam is that it guides you whatever the situation is. Every thing is directly or indirectly answered in Quran and Hadees. Again that's my belief so its ABSOLUTE (it may disappoints you)

2) People need to question the actions and decisions taken in the name of Islam or justified using Islam. Let them look at actions and decide without the qualification of being for or against Islam.

The second point if implemented can easily suffice in our attempt to change Islam back to the religion of peace it was intended to be. It is just that as long as people are unwilling to question the quran, they will be unwilling to question the self declared "champions of Islam". They will be afraid that by questioning the champions they are somehow questioning the quran which in their beliefs is blasphemous.

good point. Thats what i tried to said in my previous some posts too. This is the main reason talibans are partly successful

people now dont even check whether a person is a Scholar or not. Spending sometime in Masjid or doing some Islamic stuff is all what it takes to become a Scholar and these scholars are unable to find the real meaning of Quran

If Muslims can check the credibility of the person explaining Islam to the public 50% of the problem is solved (Its mandatory according to shariah but very few people these day follow it)

 

[Tiger Awan]

With yr definition, even Shias are non muslims because they beleive in Mahdi's arrival, which is thier central theme.

I am a sunni and I also believe in Mehdi's arrival.

But none of us (shia or sunni) believe he is a prophet

He is known as IMAM MEHDI

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 PM ----------

So why do you say the following:

he was questioning Quran only!!!!!!!!!!!

why bring bible or any other book???

 

[T-Faz]

I agree with your point but i dont think that core principles or beliefs of all religions are equal..their concepts of GOD, Prophets, views of life and death, life after death, heaven, hell or how they should spend life etc are very different to each other and if all religions are considered equal then i would ask DIVYA to follow islam instead of hinduism lol because obviously if all religion are equal and true then it dont matter which religion you follow as they are all true

I am talking about core values, you know the kindness, honesty, dedication, peace, goodwill etc part.

All religions in essence have the same core values which they promote albeit differently.

 

[mehboobkz]

I am a sunni and I also believe in Mehdi's arrival.

But none of us (shia or sunni) believe he is a prophet

He is known as IMAM MEHDI

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 PM ----------





he was questioning Quran only!!!!!!!!!!!

why bring bible or any other book???

Imam Mahdi is a twelver equal to prophet for Shias!

According to Twelver doctrine, he is the current imam and the promised Mahdi, a messianic figure who will return with Christ. He will reestablish the rightful governance of Islam and replete the earth with justice and peace

Tabatabae (1979), pp. 211-214

 

[mehboobkz]

he was questioning Quran only!!!!!!!!!!!

why bring bible or any other book???

Because there is no problem with Bible or other when it comes to TAFSEER and out of context type pretexts.

I can talk religion with Christians, Sikhs, Hindus they dont get agitate UNLIKE muslims who are known to issue fatwas and follow blasphemy laws to silence the Critics of Islam.

 

[Tiger Awan]

Imam Mahdi is a twelver equal to prophet for Shias!

Tabatabae (1979), pp. 211-214

As far as Imam Mehdi's arrival is concerned we all agree its true

And yes he is the 12th imam of shias, but i haven't came across any shia who thinks he is a prophet. Even what you have quoted is not saying he is a prophet

And look shias have many sub sects. One believe Imam Mehdi's arrival will be just like any other human. One believe he is alive from the day their 11th imam left this world, he is praying in some cave hidden to us and when the time come he will be here between us. I am not the master of these shia's beliefs, neither i have that knowledge to declare any one a non-muslim, its the work of Scholars and also this thread and this forum is not for discussing these things.

Its quite simple, its in Islam and it is also included in Pakistan's Constitution that the one who dont believe in Prophet Muhammad as the final prophet is not a Muslim.

 

[Tiger Awan]

Because there is no problem with Bible or other when it comes to TAFSEER and out of context type pretexts.

I can talk religion with Christians, Sikhs, Hindus they dont get agitate UNLIKE muslims who are known to issue fatwas and follow blasphemy laws to silence the Critics of Islam.

So many times it is discussed in this forum. Even some European countries forbid its citizens to talk about other religion in disrespectful manner. if you cant debate without being disrespectful i can do NOTHING

also

The law also has something to do with CONCLUSION. it does not apply for the discussion. Allama Iqbal wrote two poems. In one a person is questioning Allah about many thing (if you read them out of context in front of talibans ......... ) and the other one is reply to those questions. not a single scholar have questioned his poems being this and that ..........

problem is people use them in wrong manner

If people use blasphemy laws badly then there are 2 solutions
1) you abolish these laws but tell me which law in Pakistan is not use badly so go on and abolish this constitution

2) Something known as rule of Law. try to practice it.

 

[mikkix]

Those who says 12 ImAM will equal to the prophet are idiots,
No Shia believes in that.

 

[Moorkh]

well i haven't until now find a problem not answered by Islam. Also Its part of belief that the beauty of Islam is that it guides you whatever the situation is. Every thing is directly or indirectly answered in Quran and Hadees. Again that's my belief so its ABSOLUTE (it may disappoints you)

It indeed disappoints me that a smart person might be so strongly believe in something that he blinds himself to logical arguments. I quote Obi wan Kenobi again "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"

You are a Sith my friend

 

[Tiger Awan]

It indeed disappoints me that a smart person might be so strongly believe in something that he blinds himself to logical arguments. I quote Obi wan Kenobi again "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"

You are a Sith my friend

I told you Islam has never left me ANSWER-LESS.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

It indeed disappoints me that a smart person might be so strongly believe in something that he blinds himself to logical arguments. I quote Obi wan Kenobi again "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"

You are a Sith my friend

You know that Star Wars is just a "movie" right?

 

[Moorkh]

You know that Star Wars is just a "movie" right?

Sorry, I thought people on this forum had a sense of humor. Or did u not like Star Wars?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Sorry, I thought people on this forum had a sense of humor. Or did u not like Star Wars?

I thought jokes were supposed to be funny?

(Also, you shouldn't joke about religion.)

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I disagree. A religion needs to be flexible to adress the changing problems people might have. A religion or way of thinking which worked in a hunter gatherer society might inhibit progress in an agricultural society. Or a religion based on the values of an agricultural society might have problems with the values of an industrial society. If a religion refuses to change, the society in which it is so absolute will either have to stop evolving into something better or have to leave the religion entirely

Dude first of all religion is not just a way of thinking but way of life and i am sure you don't know anything about islam. Have you read islamic concepts jtihad (interpretation), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (analogical reasoning). These concepts are there to discuss the change in society because as time progress you face new issues, new challenges which need to be addressed.

I think morals of religion are absolute and they should be absolute . You suggest if western society or peoples evolved to the point that they accept homosexuality and make gays marriages, prostitution as legal then we should change the morals of religion to make it fit with western culture..so if you are gays you should change teaching of your religion for your own convenience which don't make any sense

No point arguing facts. He was showered with flowers when he appeared in court.

Its not fact but your assumptions. Just because some of his relatives showered some flowers don't mean that all Pakistani muslims supported his act of killing salman taseer. Seriously all Pakistani muslims whom i discussed this incident they all condemned the killer. Stop reading about islam with biased glasses then everything will seem clear

No one is mocking the religion or its personalities here. Your reaction seems to strengthen my point that anything spoken against Islam is taken very very badly. While I agree about not mocking a religion, you seem to take an argument like mine as mockery. Also I am not sure whether Salman Taseer was killed because he mocked islam or because he spoke against it

Oh man you misread my post. I never said you are mocking my religion. I said there are peoples who burn copies of Quran and they insult prophet of islam and there should be some laws for such peoples in civilised society for their hate crime but if someone argue over the validity of teaching of islam or do logical debate about islam then its perfectly fine and they should not be killed just because they dont hold the teaching of islam as true.

On the contrary, all religions allow their followers to take what they will from the scriptures and leave the rest. If that was not the case, there would not have been any reform movements anywhere in the world. Hindus dont burn their widows anymore, do they?

So you mean peoples should have selective islam in their lives. Did GOD asked hindus to burn the widows? I am sure certain thing peoples attributed to GOD is actually their own fault of misreading or misinterept the teaching of GOD. i am sure GOD will never ask any muslim to go and blow himself and take lives of 100 innocents. you will blame GOD for it but i will put blame on that terrorist who misinterepted the words of GOD

People need to stop looking towards quran as the absolute truth.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Quran is absolute truth and if you don't accept it truth then you are not the follower of islam. Quran is perfect religon. Islam is perfect but those who follow teaching of islam could be imperfect in understanding of these teachings. If you ask your childrens to behave nice with others but they misbehave should i blame you or ur adult children?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I am talking about core values, you know the kindness, honesty, dedication, peace, goodwill etc part.

All religions in essence have the same core values which they promote albeit differently.

agreed and such core values exist even in society without any religion or God. You can be atheist and follow all these values