You mind listing some human rights violations that were not taken up? Besides your favourite human rights violations against Taliban (which no doubt is an opportunistic claim since there's no way you'd be making that claim if it was US or India doing human rights violations against Taliban?
Why have Pakistan and India Evolved so Differently?
- Thread starter ajtr
- Start date
- Status
You mind listing some human rights violations that were not taken up? Besides your favourite human rights violations against Taliban (which no doubt is an opportunistic claim since there's no way you'd be making that claim if it was US or India doing human rights violations against Taliban?
nForce
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8,910
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
I agree with the point that you are trying to make there.
But at the same time,we need to understand that the outlook of Pakistan has always been more outwards rather than inwards.The background was getting set over the years,all it needed is just a trigger.
The U2 incident can be taken as an example.At that time,Pakistan had simply no need to be involved in the cold war which was predominantly between US and USSR.As a result of the incident,Pakistan made a permanent and strong enemy.Then came the involvements in Afghanistan,the unnecessary involvement in the Arab-Israeli war,the strategy to support the mujaheddin and their use for proxy war against India.
The country never saw a stable governance.This is one the biggest problem of all.There has been 4 military coup,and no stable form of government.Many consider the regime of Zia-ul-Haq has stable,but it his regime that gave Pakistan the Kalashnikov culture,as resuklt of which for every 8 Pakistani there is atleast 1 fire-arm in Pakistan and most likely an automatic one.That makes Zia-ul-Haq sound like a merchant of Death.
The massive Islamization in the form of madrashas sometimes fueled by the state sometimes by non-state actors have also hampered the development of the country.Denying the facts is like turning the face away from reality.
Over the years Pakistan has been more involved in either International politics,regional politics or Internal politics,with religion playing a part in every cases.
With so much of turmoil going on,the focus on development is lost somewhere between time and space.....
jayron
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,696
- Reaction score
- -4
Middle eastern countries have oil and they are rich. The other prosperous muslim countries are Turkey and Malaysia which have a more relaxed version of islam.
Pakistan has a better irrigated agriculture system which kept its people fed and relatively better of compared to Indians. Indian agriculture is solely dependent on monsoon and it is to be frank less developed. Hence the mass poverty. But the middle class has huge opportunities and will be the driving force of the Indian economy in the future.
nForce
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8,910
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
Although I deleted the post considering that to be unnecessary at this point,but then since you want to pursue it,I will just explain the indicators.
Yes,the list is based on reports provided by Independent agencies cast together by a software.The point to be note is these reports are not based on Conspiracy theories.We get reports time to time about criminal activities,deterioration of Public Services,hampering of economic development.These are not mere speculations as by its very nature the reports are observations of what has happened,not what may happen.
You can find the complete list of indicators here:
The ranking is done on the basis of 12 indicators:
Social Indicators
1. Mounting Demographic Pressures
* Pressures deriving from high population density relative to food supply and other life-sustaining resources
* Pressures deriving from group settlement patterns that affect the freedom to participate in common forms of human and physical activity, including economic productivity, travel, social interaction, religious worship
* Pressures deriving from group settlement patterns and physical settings, including border disputes, ownership or occupancy of land, access to transportation outlets, control of religious or historical sites, and proximity to environmental hazards
* Pressures from skewed population distributions, such as a "youth or age bulge," or from divergent rates of population growth among competing communal groups
2. Massive Movement of Refugees or Internally Displaced Persons creating Complex Humanitarian Emergencies
Forced uprooting of large communities as a result of random or targeted violence and/or repression, causing food shortages, disease, lack of clean water, land competition, and turmoil that can spiral into larger humanitarian and security problems, both within and between countries
3. Legacy of Vengeance-Seeking Group Grievance or Group Paranoia
* History of aggrieved communal groups based on recent or past injustices, which could date back centuries
* Patterns of atrocities committed with impunity against communal groups
* Specific groups singled out by state authorities, or by dominant groups, for persecution or repression
* Institutionalized political exclusion
* Public scapegoating of groups believed to have acquired wealth, status or power as evidenced in the emergence of "hate" radio, pamphleteering and stereotypical or nationalistic political rhetoric
Economic Indicators
5. Uneven Economic Development along Group Lines
* Group-based inequality, or perceived inequality, in education, jobs, and economic status
* Group-based impoverishment as measured by poverty levels, infant mortality rates, education levels
* Rise of communal nationalism based on real or perceived group inequalities
6. Sharp and/or Severe Economic Decline
* A pattern of progressive economic decline of the society as a whole as measured by per capita income, GNP, debt, child mortality rates, poverty levels, business failures, and other economic measures
* Sudden drop in commodity prices, trade revenue, foreign investment or debt payments
* Collapse or devaluation of the national currency
* Extreme social hardship imposed by economic austerity programs
* Growth of hidden economies, including the drug trade, smuggling, and capital flight
* Increase in levels of corruption and illicit transactions among the general populace
* Failure of the state to pay salaries of government employees and armed forces or to meet other financial obligations to its citizens, such as pension payments
Political Indicators
7. Criminalization and/or De legitimization of the State
* Massive and endemic corruption or profiteering by ruling elites
* Resistance of ruling elites to transparency, accountability and political representation
* Widespread loss of popular confidence in state institutions and processes, e.g., widely boycotted or contested elections, mass public demonstrations, sustained civil disobedience, inability of the state to collect taxes, resistance to military conscription, rise of armed insurgencies
* Growth of crime syndicates linked to ruling elites
8. Progressive Deterioration of Public Services
* Disappearance of basic state functions that serve the people, including failure to protect citizens from terrorism and violence and to provide essential services, such as health, education, sanitation, public transportation
* State apparatus narrows to those agencies that serve the ruling elites, such as the security forces, presidential staff, central bank, diplomatic service, customs and collection agencies
9. Suspension or Arbitrary Application of the Rule of Law and Widespread Violation of Human Rights
* Emergence of authoritarian, dictatorial or military rule in which constitutional and democratic institutions and processes are suspended or manipulated
* Outbreak of politically inspired (as opposed to criminal) violence against innocent civilians
* Rising number of political prisoners or dissidents who are denied due process consistent with international norms and practices
* Widespread abuse of legal, political and social rights, including those of individuals, groups or cultural institutions (e.g., harassment of the press, politicization of the judiciary, internal use of military for political ends, public repression of political opponents, religious or cultural persecution)
10. Security Apparatus Operates as a "State Within a State"
* Emergence of elite or praetorian guards that operate with impunity
* Emergence of state-sponsored or state-supported private militias that terrorize political opponents, suspected "enemies," or civilians seen to be sympathetic to the opposition
* Emergence of an "army within an army" that serves the interests of the dominant military or political clique
* Emergence of rival militias, guerilla forces or private armies in an armed struggle or protracted violent campaigns against state security forces
11. Rise of Factionalized Elites
* Fragmentation of ruling elites and state institutions along group lines
* Use of nationalistic political rhetoric by ruling elites, often in terms of communal irredentism, (e.g., a "greater Serbia") or of communal solidarity (e.g., "ethnic cleansing" or "defending the faith")
12. Intervention of Other States or External Political Actors
* Military or Para-military engagement in the internal affairs of the state at risk by outside armies, states, identity groups or entities that affect the internal balance of power or resolution of the conflict
* Intervention by donors, especially if there is a tendency towards over-dependence on foreign aid or peacekeeping missions
Omar1984
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2008
- Messages
- 12,296
- Reaction score
- 0
India does not possess the political leadership with the moral fibre or the necessary willpower among its key battling constituents to create a national reconciliation, argues Sanjay Jha.
The clamour to share the news of victory spoils of a six-decade long religious dispute by irrationally exuberant lawyers typified the chaotic, raging passions behind the centuries-old subject.
Since the historical narration of events in chronological order since the days of Emperor Babar has already been thoroughly documented in several media essays, it is pertinent to immediately come to the critical question following the controversial Allahabad high court verdict of September 30, 2010: Does India truly believe that it can move on and ahead?
My personal views:
1. Three out of 10 Muslims in India live below the poverty line, and one-third earn below Rs 550 a month, thus we miss the woods for the trees if we are naive enough to delude ourselves that the India of 2010 is really very different from that of 1992.
Poverty has perpetuated itself, income disparities rule.
Ironically enough, on Thursday there were several news-scrolls talking about Mukesh Ambani's latest top billionaire ranking.
A booming Sensex and GDP growth of 9 per cent is meaningless in the absence of fair distribution; it does not detract from the germane, irrefutable fact, has the economic lot of the Muslims truly changed even as India accelerates heavily on the foot-pedal of world commerce?
And remember, religion becomes a comforting cocoon of the vulnerable and dispossessed.
2. Was not the act of December 1949, when through blatant mischief (courtesy a bureaucrat), a Ram Lalla statue was suddenly placed inside the Babri mosque (claiming the miraculous appearance of the Hindu legendary god-king), the triggering point of the whole Babri Masjid-Ram Janambhoomi problem in post-Independent India?
How can the Indian courts quietly condone that flagrant violation of mutual respect for each other's religious abode?
Are not all political parties guilty of willful negligence?
Why did the Allahabad high court ignore such damning transgressions?
3. Once again, in February 1986, there was a verdict given by the local district judge allowing worship to happen in the Babri Masjid(otherwise locked for several decades) which was in synchronicity with the fast-changing political dynamics of the country.
Thus, have we not made Muslims a sacrificial pawn on our political chessboard?
4. The Shilanyas performed in 1989, even if on an undisputed location, was a tacit endorsement of Hindu territorial claims, and ended up encouraging belligerent nationalism over the Ram Janambhoomi issue.
Did not all mainstream parties play the communal card all along?
Can we really blame the Muslim community for believing that they are truly part of India's 'Minority Report'?
5. We are all aware of the fact that it was the Congress party's knee-jerk over-reaction to the Shah Bano verdict that encouraged the BJP to rouse sentiments on the Ram Janambhoomi issue.
The whole rath yatra, the subsequent communal riots and the senseless bloodshed that followed was a political strategy that exploited religious vulnerabilities.
Thus, does the high court judgment end up unwittingly perhaps playing into a political minefield by legitimising the communal designs of our devious national leaders? Is that fair?
If god forbid, there is an eventual backlash, should we be surprised?
6. The fully orchestrated destruction of the Babri Masjid in December 1992 via a militant mob led by the senior patriarchs of the Sangh Parivar was universally condemned.
But tell me, where does tolerant Hinduism unequivocally or nebulously state that we Hindus should practise our religious chores after destroying a sacred place of worship of another religion?
Does not that stand against the very principles of a religion that has several gods, besides Lord Ram?
Is not Thursday's 'triumph' specious?
7. The quiet burial given to the much-delayed Liberhan Commission's findings is symptomatic of how India's political parties have played havoc with minority sentiments in India.
Can you genuinely blame the Muslims for being so callously short-changed? That the political masterminds of the Babri rubble-plot are now making grandiose plans of a Ram temple must be surely disquieting.
8. Please do not take the immediate peaceful aftermath of the Ayodhya verdict to mean 'all is well', that will be profusely myopic.
What such judgments (I refer to the emphatic conclusions on some matters highly subjective and faith-related such as Lord Rama's [ Images ] birthplace) can do is to gradually convert the large mass of borderline Muslim youth into instant hardliners.
The damage inflicted is usually imperceptible and, worse, incalculable.
We might end up paying a huge price in the long run.
9. For any minority community, the ultimate last resort of fair justice is the land's judicial system.
It is still early days to utter such spontaneous blandishments as 'judicial statesmanship'.
Is the split one-third verdict finally just a mathematical formula for an amicable solution?
Is it any surprise that both the Sunni Waqf Board and the Nirmohi Akhara are all pleading to the Supreme Court, each believing that they have been unduly done in, even if the Hindus seem to have stolen the initial advantage?
Expect hardening of positions, and a more acrimonious exchange.
10. There are a lot of seasoned analysts, social commentators and other intellectuals who seem to believe that with the Supreme Court likely to take years to resolve the complex intractable imbroglio, the Ayodhya issue will die a natural death or at least lose its popular mass-base.
I think it is a rather superficial presumption for three reasons: First, as we all discovered on September 30, the nation came to a virtual standstill on the subject even 18 years after its disturbing planned demolition.
Expect the same or higher intensity of followers as a whole new generation has now been re-educated on that history lesson in a frenzied world of several media platforms, besides television.
Second, the Supreme Court may not take that long to come to a final decision. In fact, it might take as early as a mere two years.
Third, economic emancipation, social amelioration and material success are not directly related to religious tolerance.
Terry Jones, the US pastor, is not the only religious fanatic in the United States, which corners 27 per cent of the world's economic output.
Bottomline: India does not possess the political leadership with the apposite moral fibre or the necessary willpower among its key battling constituents to create a national reconciliation.
Frankly, all that talk is total humbug, wishful thinking and vastly impractical (I would love to be surprised though).
The judicial process, irrespective of its risky assessments on matters as sensitive as religious faith, is therefore by pure fait accompli, our only logical recourse.
The Supreme Court it is then!
---------- Post added at 03:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 AM ----------
Muslims betrayed: Shahi Imam
Rejecting the Allahabad High Court verdict on the Ayodhya title suits, the Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid on Friday said the community had been betrayed again, even as he appealed for peace.
Criticising the Congress, Syed Ahmed Bukhari said: Now dialogue has become one of the refrains, but we have seen the attitude of Congress regime over the years. First, it was installation of idols in 1949, then it was shilanyas, followed by the opening of locks and then presiding the martyrdom of Babri Mosque. Now we have been betrayed again.
Bukhari was addressing Muslims after Friday prayers.
He expressed doubts over the consolation route of appeal before the Supreme Court. ...my impression is that the Supreme Court will also pronounce similar judgment. Supreme Court is most likely to endorse this verdict.
Bukhari said Muslims wanted justice but got settlement. Muslims want justice. At least this is what we had hoped from the court. But it (the Court) pronounced a settlement. We are not ready to accept it. This is not a verdict of secular state.
The Imam had some hard words for the judiciary, saying it was a title suit and not a partition suit. The court has pronounced partitioning of the title. Muslims did not wait for 60 years for this. They were expecting justice. Having lost faith in different regimes, 60 years down the line we can not even trust the courts, Bukhari said.
When the court did not find evidence of demolition of temple to build the mosque, how could it find evidence of ruins of the temple at that place? Then the courts invoked the principle of faith of one community. What about over 350 years of faith of Muslims at that site? he said.
The Imam said the court did not accept the reality of existence of a mosque for over 450 years but it accepted the existence of idols that came only in 1949.
If we do not get our rights, we will never be able to walk in this country with our heads held high. Forget about moving 50 years ahead, we will be set back by another 200 years, Bukhari said.
He suggested that Muslims should meet in Delhis Ramlila grounds to formulate a strategy to deal with the situation arising out of the verdict.
Muslims betrayed: Shahi Imam
divya
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2010
- Messages
- 2,110
- Reaction score
- 0
Statutory Warning: Selective reading only on the one side of story is injurious to health
nForce
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8,910
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
Ayodhya: 10 reasons why India cannot really move on
Everything depends upon the perspective as how you view things Omar.
One can look at a disaster and bow down,give up,shake the head and say we are doomed.
OR
One can say,okay,there in lies the problem.Now that we have identified the problem,we can buckle up and go for a solution.I believe in the second option.I suggest you do the same for your own country.I will take your post as a constructive criticism and thank you for that.
Running the World's largest democracy with so much of diversity is not a matter of joke.Glitches are bound to happen,which need to be addressed severely.In case of Ayodhya,that is what is being done here.The rule of law has taken up the issue and pursuing it under the guidelines of law.
We are not the types who simply role over and die.We are the ones who learn from the mistakes,stand up again and make corrections....
Afterall,that is the key to success,that India is experiencing these days,isnt it????
KALKI
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,026
- Reaction score
- 0
The damage has been done my lady...the damage has been done!
third eye
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 18,519
- Reaction score
- 13
- Country
- Location
Both began together in 47 and after so many yrs no nation has any excuse to condone their non performance.
Pak could not break away from the feudal style of governance while India did away with the Zamindari system & privy purses. Ayub may have performed well as an admistrator but did incalculable damage by setting a precedent of change of power thru unconstitutional means something Generals following him happily followed. In any case like all dictators he too was booted out about a decade later.
Zia to my mind did the max damage by hanging Bhutto and thereby establishing the fear of the army in the politicians. His drift towards fundamentalism is at the root of most ills that the nation faces and shall be very hard to undo.Mush merely followed the precedent.
India too muddled along in the 50s & 60s with all sorts of experiments some backfired some didnt. The 5 year plan & use of the ballot to change Govts being two cornerstones that have stood it in good stead.
Both nations know the answers to their problems . In India coalition politics and an absence of charismatic leaders prevents it from applying the correctives while in Pak absence of national institutions is the bane.
Pak could not break away from the feudal style of governance while India did away with the Zamindari system & privy purses. Ayub may have performed well as an admistrator but did incalculable damage by setting a precedent of change of power thru unconstitutional means something Generals following him happily followed. In any case like all dictators he too was booted out about a decade later.
Zia to my mind did the max damage by hanging Bhutto and thereby establishing the fear of the army in the politicians. His drift towards fundamentalism is at the root of most ills that the nation faces and shall be very hard to undo.Mush merely followed the precedent.
India too muddled along in the 50s & 60s with all sorts of experiments some backfired some didnt. The 5 year plan & use of the ballot to change Govts being two cornerstones that have stood it in good stead.
Both nations know the answers to their problems . In India coalition politics and an absence of charismatic leaders prevents it from applying the correctives while in Pak absence of national institutions is the bane.
Omar1984
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2008
- Messages
- 12,296
- Reaction score
- 0
AUz
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2010
- Messages
- 8,595
- Reaction score
- -12
- Country
- Location
Hahaha....What is more Relaxed version sir???? There is only ONE Islam and it don't have many versions like many other religions.Now a days,Islam is divided into two versions on the basis of how it followers look to it..
1 Traditional Islam (More than 95%)
2 Islamic Extremism
Turkey and Malaysia are "TRADITIONAL MUSLIM COUNTRIES"....By the way,Turkey ,in a way, is more Islamic than Pakistan itself.You can see Islam on the streets of Turkey...Girls wearing Hijab....Mosques are almost full on every prayer not just on Friday (Like we have in Pakistan)...Islamic Party is ruling over Turkey...In Pakistan NO ISLAMIC PARTY CAN EVEN THINK OF WINNING ELECTION ON NATIONAL SCALE...!!
The difference may be is that, the Turks are more sensible than Pakistanis and know a thing called "Moderate Approach".
Omar1984
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2008
- Messages
- 12,296
- Reaction score
- 0
divya
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2010
- Messages
- 2,110
- Reaction score
- 0
Hahaha....What is more Relaxed version sir???? There is only ONE Islam and it don't have many versions like many other religions.Now a days,Islam is divided into two versions on the basis of how it followers look to it..
1 Traditional Islam (More than 95%)
2 Islamic Extremism
Turkey and Malaysia are "TRADITIONAL MUSLIM COUNTRIES"....By the way,Turkey ,in a way, is more Islamic than Pakistan itself.You can see Islam on the streets of Turkey...Girls wearing Hijab....Mosques are almost full on every prayer not just on Friday (Like we have in Pakistan)...Islamic Party is ruling over Turkey...In Pakistan NO ISLAMIC PARTY CAN EVEN THINK OF WINNING ELECTION ON NATIONAL SCALE...!!
The difference may be is that, the Turks are more sensible than Pakistanis and know a thing called "Moderate Approach".
the above post is perfect example why we have evolved diffrently. india has evolved as themselves. where as pakistanis have devloped themselves more turk than turks, more indian muslim than indians. everthing and everyone but not just pakistan and pakistani. the genric atttiude of lets fight the fights of others be it palestine or afghanistan its pakistanis duty but when its internal issues its all foreign evil hindoos cia mossad blah blah. where as indians have devloped themselves as a selfish nation... will give u roti to eat but me first, no friends but all are partners.
- Status
Similar threads
