Why does our Navy fail so horribly?

[Mav3rick]

I find it surprising that you regard my response as irrelevant.

You misunderstood me, what I meant was that you were answering my post on a point to point basis, as did I, however the context of my post may be taken as a single instance for proper explanation and understanding. You were correct, I was merely trying to offer another way to look at my post

Let us go back to the point of origin of debate between you and me. Member niaz pointed out the folly of advocating war with USA by Zaid Hamid and others who share his views. You jumped in by reminding him about our nuclear capability. This is where I decided to correct you.

You still fail to realize the overwhelming superiority of USA over Pakistan in both conventional and nuclear power projection aspects. Point is that it is stupid to even think about advocating war with USA in the light of our existing capabilities, even if the latter has track record of voilating our sovereignty. Yes, we can choose to confront USA but diplomatic channels are preferable.

US is a super power with no equal today....we both agree to that. Your posts start with the assumption that the US will wage war against Pakistan if we defend our fellow countrymen against drone attacks and my assumption is that the US will strangle us some other way (economically most likely). Furthermore, you want to survive and grow stronger which is a very very long term plan while in the meantime a lot of our countrymen will be executed whereas I want to live or die for my countrymen today. We either live together or we die together but we go down fighting.

Lastly, I want to ask what makes you believe that the drones will be limited to the area where they operate? What if tomorrow the US decides to expand the role & operation of drones to Quetta, Karachi, Lahore & Islamabad?

Do you think that Pakistan is the only victim of US hegemony? Several other countries are in the same pipe.

Best path would be to pursue more nuetral foreign policy, destroy local militancy, and also pursue strong economic plan to end dependency on US aid for economic and military purposes. These developments will make our situation better.

Should I care about US hegemony & terrorism against other counties? I will think about them once I save my own hide. I agree to your advice of best path but it has not worked so far and it does not seem likely to work in the near future. Local militancy is the production of direct & indirect US actions within Pakistan, how to counter that?

I do read your posts properly. Point is that you are also advocating confrontationist approach with USA. My argument is that we lack adequate strength to pursue such an approach. And it is always wise to do homework on capabilities of potential enemies. USA is far stronger and dangerous then India. This you need to realize.

Well, agreed. But when do we stop bending over? Can we atleast agree that the US cannot afford to put boots on the ground here? So what will they achieve by destroying the infrastructure as it will only result in mushroom boost in militancy and exponential growth in hate against the US with consequences.

If you will bring nuclear factor in the equation, what will you expect from USA and that too in the light of currently fractured relationship? Do you see Kayani threatening USA with nuclear weapons?

I am not brining in the Nuclear factor unless I am threatened with total annihilation....be it in steps or shock & awe then.

We can certainly say 'no' to USA in certain matters pertaining to our interests. However, we are not in the position to pursue confrontationist approach with USA in militarlistic sense.

If they stop drone strikes, respect our sovereignty and stop covert operations within Pakistan then I have no problems with them.

Let me give you a better conclusion: Pakistan is a NATION born after hectic efforts of beloved Quaid and huge number of sacrifices of innocent people during partition period. We cannot jeopardize the fate of this NATION for the sake of foolishness of some people.

If Pakistani want to live with dignity then they need to correct their mistakes and shortcomings and make this nation much stronger then it currently is.

Ideals like yours do not apply in the same manner to 'an entire nation' as they may do to an individual. Try to think from the perspective of a leader. You cannot easily decide the fate of the entire nation on the basis of your personal beliefs, when you are a leader. You have to look at the big picture. Allah Almighty have not adviced muslims to commit suicide by own choice.

Has Allah not ordered you to protect the weak? By saving your own skin, you are following Allah's order? You are sacrificing your fellow countrymen to drone strikes every week and remember some of them are 'alleged militants' and most of them are collateral damage......only a few actual militants have been targeted.

Iran is in very vulnerable position in current times. Saddam is gone and Libya is secured. These developments have paved the way for USA to act against Iran at any given moment.

Also, Iran have oil just like Iraq for worst case scenario.

And North Korea is a bad example as well. Common people of North Korea are impoverished due to idiotic policies of their leader. North Korea is surviving under Chinese umbrella. However, geopolitics of Pakistan is different from that of North Korea. China cannot offer similar clout to Pakistan due to risk of increased confrontation with both India and USA.

Yet both NK & Iran hold their ground against foreign aggression. This is how proud nations react to hostilities.

Vietnam is old story. It cannot be repeated. And Afghanistan is a war-torn nation with no future in sight.

You want Pakistan to meet similar fate? It can be much worse for Pakistan relatively.

And these are conventional confrontations. US can project much more power then it did in these nations. Pakistan is a strong nation, therefore, US response would be tough accordingly in case of hostilities (God forbid).


I respect your belief. However, you should awaken to ground realities of existing Islamic world around you.

Islamic world is badly divided and filled with internal rivalries. USA have attacked and destroyed 3 Islamic nations by now; Afghanistan; Iraq; and Libya. And other Islamic nations were silent spectators.

You want Pakistan to be the fifth on that list? We are breaking/dividing up internally because of US involvement in our political and military setup as well as her covert operations that destabilize us even further!

 

[Developereo]

There are already many ASM batteries located along the coast. Installing Brahmos type of missile batteries is not going to provide much advantage due to the missile's high RCS, a warship has a multiple layer of defence which can easily shoot down a hypersonic missile. Small, manoeuvrable and stealthy ASM missiles are the way to go.

OK. That would also work.

I was thinking, at mach 5, a missile would take 4-5 minutes to travel 300 miles. You launch 40 of those puppies and the CBG will be history.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Realistic and to the point to a certain extent.
There is the law and principle of uncertainty that applies to all theories and all systems including armaments of the US and its capacities.
For Pakistan alone, I agree with you for 90% of it, but, since every country has its own military secrets, we can only speculate on What Pakistan can do and can not do..
The main thing is that Pakistan is A Muslim country, and taking on the only Muslim nuclear power will be perceived as a vital danger to the whole islamic world, so between you and me can the US take on the whole Islamic world without going to a world war, which in turn will jeopardise the interests of many other powerful nations who will do anything to stop even the idea of the US attacking Pakistan, a major power in the subcontinent and a piece of the islamic body or mosaic if you prefer.

If you really think that we have military secrets through which we can hit continental United States and Gen Kiyani has all the plans laid out to sort out the US in case we need to, than my friend we are both smoking something we should not be smoking. I think LeGenD has dispassionately explained our position vis a vis US in a comprehensive and cogent manner and I fully agree with him and Niaz on this.

The problem is handling the truth. PA, PAF, & PN will always say that they can handle any eventuality. That is and should be their standard response. But should we take everything hook line and sinker?

Pakistani Military is postured primarily to handle incursion from India, and not from US, China etc. We need to be realistic in our assessments and do a quick cost/benefit analysis on going to war with US.

What would be the response of US when going to war with a regional nuclear power??? When they went into Iraq -- they went half cocked. Would they do that with us a nuclear power?

They have in-theater troops; they would not risk a punitive strike on those troops by PAF/PA. So the response would be overwhelming strike and total destruction of our war fighting capability. After all, they will do everything in their power to save the average GI Joe from Sioux Falls, S. Dakota stationed in Kandahar from coming in harm’s way.

There are ways to get out of this coercion and so called hegemonic designs of US. We are not fully exploring them. In fact we are naive to think that there is such a thing as a equal relationship of unequal’s! And that there are "Brotherly” relationships. Those things went out of fashion after the end of cold war, and practical dismantling of both the Non-aligned movement and the so called "Islamic Block." The last nail in the coffin was the dismemberment of USSR -- the world became uni-polar and we had a huge hand in making it so. As someone mentioned in one of their posts, we had short term gains but colossal looses in the long term from our little stint as an Imperial Power.

The first call was not made to Pakistan, but to KSA! They were out of the equation and we lost our line backer (Our "get out of Jail Free" card) in the first hour of the making of the New World Order. Even if we wanted to have second thoughts on our response to Colin Powell, our spiritual and financial backer was out of the game.

On top of that India was "Gyrating her hips in front of Uncle Sam to let her do the dirty work for them and open a corridor from Sialkot to Torkham for US troops" (Said by the then US CG in KHI - in a closed staff meeting).

Let us be rational here and be practical. We might not like the odds against us but then we do not live in a perfect world and we have not helped ourselves in making one. We love to cite examples of Iran, Syria, N. Korea but then are we prepared to make those sacrifices? I think not

As far as the Islamic block, less said the better. We are on our own -- have been on our own for last two decades. We have done this to ourselves, big time and now there is a strong and determined desire in this nation of pure to go for "Death by JoJo!!"

On a lighter note US would not have to go to IMF, they would just open up their visa for a month and half the nation would migrate ;-) On a serious note, this is where the problem lies; we have not invested in the development of this country.

Food for thought, just think if there was no 1965 war where would we be today and what was the long term benefit of that war to us as a nation?????

 

[500]

Why so...?

Because its most meaningless rank I've ever seen in my life. According to this list worthless North Korean/Iranian midget submarine = 1 and three billion nuclear supermodern monster Seawolf = 1. Gunboat = 1 and 100,000 ton aircraft carrier= 1.

As result Philippines has stronger navy than UK, Iran has stronger navy than Russia etc. etc.

 

[Developereo]

Why do people keep bringing up a US-Pakistan conflict?

To think that the Iraq/Afghanistan wars had anything to do with full American capability is to harbor a severely unrealistic view of US capabilities. A full military war between Pakistan and the US would be measured in weeks, if not days.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

D it seems that there is an insatiable desire to do so in us these days. Might be that some section of the population has been taken in by the rehtoric of Difa e Pakistan crowd.

 

[Developereo]

D it seems that there is an insatiable desire to do so in us these days. Might be that some section of the population has been taken in by the rehtoric of Difa e Pakistan crowd.

It's a scary thought to think the next generation may live in such a delusional state of over-confidence. As if the Khalifat escapism isn't bad enough by itself.

Every single PAF airplane, every PN surface ship and every nuke site would be vaporized within the hour. The entire Islamic world combined, except Turkey, would not last more than a couple of weeks. And yet these people live in some parallel world of make-believe.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

True bud. This country is slowly becoming a classic Jacket Case; no no I did not mis-spell the word. Few other countries out there might be classic basket cases but we seem to have created a new term for ourselves, the classic "Jacket Case."

We love to blow, implode, and commit suicide, all by ourselves!

I fail to grasp this hunger for hollow bravado, and fist waving. This fist got us into 65' mindset. God help us today.

 

[MilSpec]

OK. That would also work.

I was thinking, at mach 5, a missile would take 4-5 minutes to travel 300 miles. You launch 40 of those puppies and the CBG will be history.

What have you been smoking!!!

 

[Developereo]

True bud. This country is slowly becoming a classic Jacket Case; no no I did not mis-spell the word. Few other countries out there might be classic basket cases but we seem to have created a new term for ourselves, the classic "Jacket Case."

We love to blow, implode, and commit suicide, all by ourselves!

I fail to grasp this hunger for hollow bravado, and fist waving. This fist got us into 65' mindset. God help us today.

The belief in Islam, which was meant to instill confidence and boost morale, has turned into an escapist panacea. Rather than slog things out the hard way, these people believe all our problems will vanish into thin air when the ummah unites under a Khalifah. The most insidious part is what all faith healers around the world use as an insurance policy: if things don't work out it's because people don't believe.

What have you been smoking!!!

I don't know the exact number needed, but no missile defence system is 100% safe. All we need is a handful of missiles to get through and kill the queen.

 

[MilSpec]

The belief in Islam, which was meant to instill confidence and boost morale, has turned into an escapist panacea. Rather than slog things out the hard way, these people believe all our problems will vanish into thin air when the ummah unites under a Khalifah. The most insidious part is what all faith healers around the world use as an insurance policy: if things don't work out it's because people don't believe.



I don't know the exact number needed, but no missile defence system is 100% safe. All we need is a handful of missiles to get through and kill the queen.

you do realize that destroyin one CBG wont do crap, but then every thing from f22's to b1 b2 stealth bomber will unleash the fury.... I mean they will bring such pain, that war with India would seem like a walk in the park.

 

[Developereo]

you do realize that destroyin one CBG wont do crap, but then every thing from f22's to b1 b2 stealth bomber will unleash the fury.... I mean they will bring such pain, that war with India would seem like a walk in the park.

Read my post. I specifically mentioned the IN CBG.

India will only have a handful of CBGs. How many carriers would India be willing to lose?

I don't know how much such a missile would cost, but even at $10 million a pop, having 100 of these would be cheaper than some of the bigger ships and ensure that India would not dare position a CBG within range.

 

[Moorkh]

US vs pakistan is so one sided, its not even funny.

US can hit pakistan and pakistan has no capacity to strike back. american bases are in 'fellow' islamic countries or too far off for pakistani forces. a B2 from diego garcia could silently move in, bomb whatever it pleases and move out. even if pakistan had the capability to destroy any kind of weapon US posesses, it would still be a defensive war. The US could slowly win by attrition. bombing pakistan using weapons from a longer range than pakistan.

the only countries that have the capacity to hit back at US are russia and china. all others simply dont have the technology , money or numbers. so it would be simply stupid for the rest of the countries to get in a military confrontation with the US

Read my post. I specifically mentioned the IN CBG.

India will only have a handful of CBGs. How many carriers would India be willing to lose?

IN wont be willing to lose any carriers at all. they will stay away from the ASM as long as possible, using the planes to interdict pakistani shipping.

although this talk about firing 40ASM does beg the question, how will they acquire their targets, without the targeting platforms like the P-3 being targeted themselves?

 

[Mo12]

Pakistan navy does not fail badly!

For the size of Pakistan small economy, they are approx 40 countries that has a bigger economy then Pakistan.

And about only 20 of the 40 have a better navy then Pakistan.

In fact Pakistan navy is punching above its weight.

Look at India, all the countries with a bigger economy then India, all have a better navy, except for Japan only. India navy is failing more i say.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Read my post. I specifically mentioned the IN CBG.

India will only have a handful of CBGs. How many carriers would India be willing to lose?

I don't know how much such a missile would cost, but even at $10 million a pop, having 100 of these would be cheaper than some of the bigger ships and ensure that India would not dare position a CBG within range.

India will not use the Carriers within range of coastal defences, it will not need to. The CBGs and surface assets will be used to interdict shipping traffic along with subs and shore-based air assets.