Why does our Navy fail so horribly?

[Gessler]

Pakistan navy does not fail badly!

For the size of Pakistan small economy, they are approx 40 countries that has a bigger economy then Pakistan.

And about only 20 of the 40 have a better navy then Pakistan.

In fact Pakistan navy is punching above its weight.

Look at India, all the countries with a bigger economy then India, all have a better navy, except for Japan only. India navy is failing more i say.

Look brother, no need to undermine our own capabilities for to cushion the adversary and make
them feel safe and allow them to ride on false pride.

Our Navy (along with ICG) has got the entire IOR to take care of. Chase/kill pirates, patrolling
high seas, power projection/extending control, and could also get overseas bases such as the one in Oman to attend to.

One thing is running a big company and the other is running a small shop. The losses
faced by the big company would inherently be higher than the shop's losses, because the
amount the company INVESTS is relatively much higher. But that cannot be said
as failure.

Our Navy is an extremely professional and excelled force that has lived up the responsibilities
bestowed on it by the Govt. and is an extremely successfull and effcient force today. It is FAR from
failing and that distance would only increase as time goes by.

regards,

 

[Developereo]

IN wont be willing to lose any carriers at all. they will stay away from the ASM as long as possible, using the planes to interdict pakistani shipping.

I was going by the analysis earlier in the thread that the CBG would be stationed 300 miles offshore.

although this talk about firing 40ASM does beg the question, how will they acquire their targets, without the targeting platforms like the P-3 being targeted themselves?

The detection problem is orthogonal to this idea anyway. Whatever means are used to detect CBGs otherwise would apply in this case. This is only talking about the response once a CBG is detected.

Remember, a mach 5 missile only takes 4-5 minutes to travel 300 miles so the CBG will not have moved much and, with terminal guidance, the missile would find the target. Once you are within a few miles of it, a CBG is a chattering oasis in the middle of the ocean.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Remember, a mach 5 missile only takes 4-5 minutes to travel 300 miles so the CBG will not have moved much and, with terminal guidance, the missile would find the target. Once you are within a few miles of it, a CBG is a chattering oasis in the middle of the ocean.

Now who has those Mach 5 missiles/is developing them???

 

[Developereo]

Now who has those Mach 5 missiles/is developing them???

Yes, I know. That is why I was suggesting that Pakistan should seriously give a priority to acquire such missiles. I don't know the state of the Chinese arsenal.

Also, as notorious_eagle was saying, our existing missile may actually be better in this context since, while slower, they would be more stealthy.

 

[Moorkh]

I was going by the analysis earlier in the thread that the CBG would be stationed 300 miles offshore.

oh, that was for the americans. they have the capacity to bring enough firepower to the fight to knock out the ASM and stuff before it can be used. also they simply have a clear technological advantage.

even so, they dont need to be so close to the coast. they just need to be close enough for the planes and cruise missiles to do their job and hammer the naval detection capablities. once that is done they can do as they please.

The detection problem is orthogonal to this idea anyway. Whatever means are used to detect CBGs otherwise would apply in this case. This is only talking about the response once a CBG is detected.

Remember, a mach 5 missile only takes 4-5 minutes to travel 300 miles so the CBG will not have moved much and, with terminal guidance, the missile would find the target. Once you are within a few miles of it, a CBG is a chattering oasis in the middle of the ocean.

once the CBG is detected accurately enough, it will definitely suffer losses.
the question is what will they lose/ will the the missiles only hit the carrier? or can they hit the little minesweeper in the CBG?
as you said, the CBG is a chattering oasis with severalships, all trying to stop the missiles and providing additional targets. 'decoys' if you may

 

[Mo12]

I was going by the analysis earlier in the thread that the CBG would be stationed 300 miles offshore.



The detection problem is orthogonal to this idea anyway. Whatever means are used to detect CBGs otherwise would apply in this case. This is only talking about the response once a CBG is detected.

Remember, a mach 5 missile only takes 4-5 minutes to travel 300 miles so the CBG will not have moved much and, with terminal guidance, the missile would find the target. Once you are within a few miles of it, a CBG is a chattering oasis in the middle of the ocean.

What if India Navy Brahmos take out your missiles first?

 

[MilSpec]

Read my post. I specifically mentioned the IN CBG.

India will only have a handful of CBGs. How many carriers would India be willing to lose?

I don't know how much such a missile would cost, but even at $10 million a pop, having 100 of these would be cheaper than some of the bigger ships and ensure that India would not dare position a CBG within range.

Oh ok, you talking about IN, then it is brilliant, I hope pakistani navy buys your Idea and starts buying these missiles, that is the perfect solution. Rest assured IN wont cause you any troubles if you have 100 of these. Just perfect!!!

Trust me Indians will never DARE to enter 300 mile radius of Pak shores!!! 1billion dollar solution to nullify Indian Navy, Just one question genius, ever wonder why Pakistani Navy, for that matter, any navy around the world, didn't do the same???

Yes, I know. That is why I was suggesting that Pakistan should seriously give a priority to acquire such missiles. I don't know the state of the Chinese arsenal.

Also, as notorious_eagle was saying, our existing missile may actually be better in this context since, while slower, they would be more stealthy.

Slower would be stealthier, interesting!!! i'm listening

 

[Markus]

Dynamics have now changed completely.

Indian Navy now have Mig-29K with 2000 kms range. Even if they take off from Goa with mid air refuelling support, they can do their job.

Indian CBG will not be req. at all. They can sit merry at Vizag or keep roaming in the Indian ocean.

 

[MilSpec]

I was going by the analysis earlier in the thread that the CBG would be stationed 300 miles offshore.



The detection problem is orthogonal to this idea anyway. Whatever means are used to detect CBGs otherwise would apply in this case. This is only talking about the response once a CBG is detected.

Remember, a mach 5 missile only takes 4-5 minutes to travel 300 miles so the CBG will not have moved much and, with terminal guidance, the missile would find the target. Once you are within a few miles of it, a CBG is a chattering oasis in the middle of the ocean.

That chaterring oasis has awacs, asw cover, it also has 4 destroyers, 6 frigates and 10 corvettes specialised for anti submarine and anti air operations. And that rustly old carrier will carry Mig 29K's with Kh31, and R77 AE SD BVRAAMS, which outranges everything on this subcontinent.


Along with the CBG you will get a complimentary side dish of Jaguar DARIN II maritime attack a/c with MKI/Rafale flying air superiority configurations.

I hope you buy enough 5 mach stealthy cruise missiles.

 

[Gessler]

The BrahMos is pretty much capable of ripping apart any present chinese/pakistani navies' surface vessels.

It is a universal-platform missile that can be launched from air, land, sea (ships & subs as well) when all variants
are completed. Coming to Anti-ship missiles, the BrahMos is likely to remain the leader of this class missiles
in the forseable future without a doubt.

That chaterring oasis has awacs, asw cover, it also has 4 destroyers, 6 frigates and 10 corvettes specialised for anti submarine and anti air operations. And that rustly old carrier will carry Mig 29K's with Kh31, and R77 AE SD BVRAAMS, which outranges everything on this subcontinent.


Along with the CBG you will get a complimentary side dish of Jaguar DARIN II maritime attack a/c with MKI/Rafale flying air superiority configurations.

I hope you buy enough 5 mach stealthy cruise missiles.

Well said bro, a few dont understand the efficiency of a CBG. It might not needed to be deployed in all circustances
but where it does, its always a war-winner!

And yeah, lets not forget the MiG-29Ks will soon carry their own version of the BrahMos!

Livefist

BrahMos Considers All-New AShM For MiG-29K & MMRCA
BrahMos Corp. is looking to develop a new anti-ship missile with a smaller diameter and lighter weight than the present BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. The proposal, tentatively called BrahMos-3, is aimed at putting together a potent anti-ship/anti-surface missile for the Indian Navy's MiG-29K and IAF MMRCA.

Revealing plans for the BrahMos-3 today at Defexpo, BrahMos CEO Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai said the first test-firing of a BrahMos from a modified Su-30MKI (modifications by HAL) would take place by early next year.

The BrahMos-2, a concept scramjet-based hypersonic version of the missile has begun development, and the programme aims at a first test in five years, Dr Pillai says. The long-awaited underwater-launched version of the BrahMos is expected to undergo its first test within 2012, and is understood to be ready in all respects.

The BrahMos recently conducted two successful tests of the army land attack variant of the missile, in which it performed supersonic steep dives in both tests.

 

[Developereo]

Oh ok, you talking about IN, then it is brilliant, I hope pakistani navy buys your Idea and starts buying these missiles, that is the perfect solution. Rest assured IN wont cause you any troubles if you have 100 of these. Just perfect!!!

Trust me Indians will never DARE to enter 300 mile radius of Pak shores!!! 1billion dollar solution to nullify Indian Navy, Just one question genius, ever wonder why Pakistani Navy, for that matter, any navy around the world, didn't do the same???

PN already has ASMs along the coast. The only question is whether faster is better.

Slower would be stealthier, interesting!!! i'm listening

It's an ancient discussion. Please consult any of the BrahMos threads about the missile's heat signature as a function of its speed, especially against the cold ocean background.

That chaterring oasis has awacs, asw cover, it also has 4 destroyers, 6 frigates and 10 corvettes specialised for anti submarine and anti air operations. And that rustly old carrier will carry Mig 29K's with Kh31, and R77 AE SD BVRAAMS, which outranges everything on this subcontinent.


Along with the CBG you will get a complimentary side dish of Jaguar DARIN II maritime attack a/c with MKI/Rafale flying air superiority configurations.

I hope you buy enough 5 mach stealthy cruise missiles.

According to your compatriots, the BrahMos can take out any Chinese ship, but the same missile in opposite hands can't touch the IN.

OK.

 

[MilSpec]

PN already has ASMs along the coast. The only question is whether faster is better.



It's an ancient discussion. Please consult any of the BrahMos threads about the missile's heat signature as a function of its speed, especially against the cold ocean background.



According to your compatriots, the BrahMos can take out any Chinese ship, but the same missile in opposite hands can't touch the IN.

OK.

don't quit your day job yet!!! trust me!!!

 

[Developereo]

don't quit your day job yet!!! trust me!!!

Such brilliant military insight!

 

[Mav3rick]

US vs pakistan is so one sided, its not even funny.

US can hit pakistan and pakistan has no capacity to strike back. american bases are in 'fellow' islamic countries or too far off for pakistani forces. a B2 from diego garcia could silently move in, bomb whatever it pleases and move out. even if pakistan had the capability to destroy any kind of weapon US posesses, it would still be a defensive war. The US could slowly win by attrition. bombing pakistan using weapons from a longer range than pakistan.

the only countries that have the capacity to hit back at US are russia and china. all others simply dont have the technology , money or numbers. so it would be simply stupid for the rest of the countries to get in a military confrontation with the US



IN wont be willing to lose any carriers at all. they will stay away from the ASM as long as possible, using the planes to interdict pakistani shipping.

although this talk about firing 40ASM does beg the question, how will they acquire their targets, without the targeting platforms like the P-3 being targeted themselves?

Would India do the same? Consider for a moment that US is using drones in Kashmir killing insurgents but those drones also kill innocent civilians and ofcourse they violate India airspace. Would India allow the US to do that at all???

 

[MilSpec]

Such brilliant military insight!

yes, its good advice, trust me

First may be the think tank needs to to tank the idea that a cbg would ever approach coastal defence range. Next you might also want to consider the capability of the aircrafts aboard these A/C carrier.

Also please understand the capability of the CBG defences provided by dedicated air defence corvettes and frigates couple with the destructive firepower of the destroyers. Next you would also need to undertand that combat zone which the CBG will be stationed in might be only accessible to your maritime strike aircraft and surface ships.

If PN does goes offensive it might have limited success but will be heavily outgunned , on the defensive role it will be sitting duck as in previous encounter, unless we somehow forget to read maps and sail right into the trajectory of your 100 missiles.