Who has the strongest navy in the Mediterranean Sea?

[KAL-EL]

I voted to fast for Turkey, but soon after that, I realized the error of my ways. Obviously France is tops in the Med area. Turkey's pretty buffed up too.

 

[Max Steel]

USN 6th fleet will be equally vulnerable in Black sea . In unnecessary power projection , yes they lead .

 

[Neptune]

USN 6th fleet will be equally vulnerable in Black sea . In unnecessary power projection , yes they lead .

Simply by the International Laws, USN can not posse more than one warship in Black Sea.

 

[Penguin]

Simply by the International Laws, USN can not posse more than one warship in Black Sea.

Really? Which law is that? The Montreux convention? Where in that convention does it state this? The US wasn't party to this treay IIRC (never signed it) and the principle signing nation, the Soviet Union, no longer exists....

The Black Sea Straits is a major international shipping route that connects the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. The Straits consist of the Bosporus Strait (length 31 km, width 0.7 km - 3.7 km), the Marmara Sea (length 222 km, width 27 km – 74 km) and the Dardanelles Strait (length 70 km, width 1.3 km – 2 km). It is regulated by the Montreux convention of 1936

Legal provision: maritime law

Montreux Convention, see http://sam.baskent.edu.tr/belge/Montreux_ENG.pdf

US Warships left the Black Sea region | Maritime news | VesselFinder
Two U.S. Ships in Black Sea, French Surveillance Ship Due Friday - USNI News
The Navy’s Battle Command Ship Patrols the Black Sea — War Is Boring — Medium

Vessels can’t stay in the area for long and have to come and go instead, as the Montreux Convention bars outside countries from keeping warships in the Black Sea for more than 21 days.

 

[Penguin]

Montreux convention 1936:

Article 14.
The maximum aggregate tonnage of all foreign naval forces which may be in course of transit through the Straits shall not exceed 15.000 tons, except in the cases provided for in Article 11 and in Annex Ill to the present Convention.
The forces specified in the preceding paragraph shall not, however, comprise more than nine
vessels.
Vessels, whether belonging to Black Sea or non-Black Sea Powers, paying visits to a port in the
Straits, in accordance with the provisions of Article 17, shall not be included in this tonnage.
Neither shall vessels of war which have suffered damage during their passage through the Straits be included in this tonnage; such vessels, while undergoing repair, shall be subject to any special
provisions relating to security laid down by Turkey.

Article 18.
(1) The aggregate tonnage which non-Black Sea Powers may have in that sea in time of peace shall be limited as follows:
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) below, the aggregate tonnage of the said Powers shall not exceed 30.000 tons;
(b) If at any time the tonnage ot the strongest fleet in the Black Sea shall exceed by at least 10.000 tons the tonnage of the strongest fleet in that sea at the date of the signature of the present Convention, the aggregate tonnage of 30.000 tons mentioned in paragrahp (a) shall be increased by the same amount, up to a maximum of 45,000 tons. For this purpose, each Black Sea Power shall, in conformity with Annex IV to the present Convention, inform the Turkish Govrnment, on the 1 st January and the 1st July of each year, of the total tonnage of its fleet in the Black Sea; and the Turkish Government shall transmit this information to the other High Contracting Parties and to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations;
(c) The tonnage which any one non-Black Sea Power may have in the Black Sea shall be limited to two-thirds of the aggregate tonnage provided for in paragraphs (a) and (b) above;
(d) In the event, however, of one or more non-Black Sea Powers desiring to send naval forces into the Black Sea, for a humanitarian purpose, the said forces, which shall in no case exceed 8.000 tons altogether, shall be allowed to enter the Black Sea without having to give the notification provided for in Article 13 of the present Convention, provided an authorisation is obtained from the Turkish Government in the following circumstances: if the figure of the aggregate tonnage specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) above has not been reaached and will not be exceeded by the despatch of the forces which it is desired to send, the Turkish Government shall grant the said authorisation within the shortest possible time after receiving the request which has been addressed to it; if the said figure has already been reached or if the despatch of the forces which it is desired to send will cause it to be exceeded, the Turkish Go',ernment will immediately inform the other Black Sea Powers of the request for authorisation, and if the said Powers make no objection within twenty-four hours of having received this information, the Turkish Government shall, within forty-eight hours at the latest, inform the interested Powers of the reply which it has decided to make to their request.
Any further entry into the Black Sea of naval forces of non-Black Sea Powers shall only be effected within the available limits of the aggregate tonnage provided for in paragraphs (a) and (b) above.
(2) Vessels of war belonging to non-Black Sea Powers shall not remain in the Black Sea more than twenty-one days, whatever be the object of their presence there.

ANNEX Il
A. STANDARD DISPLACEMENT
(1) The standard displacement of a surface vessel is the displacement of the vessel, complete, fully manned, engined, and equipped ready for sea, including all armament and ammunition, equipment, autfit, provisions and fresh water for crew, miscellaneous stores and implements of every description that are intended to be carried in war, but without fuel or reserve feed water on board.
(2) The standard displacement of a submarine is the surface displacement of the vessel complete
(exclusive of the water in' non-watertight structure), fully manned engined and equipped ready for sea, including all armament and ammunition equipment, outfit, provisions for crew, miscellaneous stores and implements of very' description that are intended to be carried in war, but without fuel, lubricating oil, fresh water or ballast water of any kind on board.
(3) The word "ton" except in the expression "metric tons" denotes the ton of 2.240 lb (1.016 kilos).
B. CATEGORIES
(1) Capital ships are surface vessels of war belonging to one of the two following sub-categories:
(a) Surface vessels of war, other than aircraft-carriers, auxilliary vessels, or capital ships of subcategory (b) the standard displacement of which exceeds 10.000 tons (10.160 metric tons) or which carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 8 in. (203 mm.);
(b) Surface vessels of war, other than aircraft-carriers, the standard displacement of which does not exceed 8.000 tons (8.128 metric tons) and which carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 8 in. (203mm.).
(2) Aircraft-Carriers are surface vessels of war, whatever their displacement, designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of carrying and opeI The wording of the present Annex is taken from the London Naval Treaty of March 25th, 1936. rating aircraft at sea. The fitting of a landing-on or flying-off deck on any vessel of war, provided such vessel has not been designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of carrying and operating aircraft at sea, shall not cause any vessel to fitted to be classified in the category of aircraft-carrier.
The category of aircraft-carrier is divided into two sub-categories as follows:
(a) Vessels fitted with a flight deck, from which aircraft can take off, or on which aircraft can land from the air;
(b) Vessels not fitted with a flight deck as described in (a) above.
(3) Light Surface Vessels are surface vessels of war other than aircraft-carriers, minor war vessels of auxiliary vessels,~the standard displacement of which exceeds 100 ton (102 metric tons) and does not exceed 10.000 tons (10.160 metric tons), and which do not carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 8 in. (103 mm.).
The category of light surface vessels is divided into three subcategories as follows:
(a) Vessels which carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 6.1 in. (155 mm.);
(b) Vessels which do not carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 6.1 in. (155 mm.) and the standard displacement of which exceeds 3.000 tons (3.048 metric tons);
(c) Vessels which do not carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 6.1 in. (155 mm.) and the standard displacement of which does not exceed 3.000 (3.048 metric tons).
(4) Submarines are all vessels designed to operate below the surface of the sea.
(5) Minor War Vessels are surface vessels of war, other than auxiliary vessels, the standard
displacement of which exceeds 100 tons (102 metric tons) and does not exceed 2.000 tons (2.032 metric tons), provided they have none of the following characteristics:
(a) Mount a gun with a calibre exceeding 6.1 in (155 mm.);
(b) Are designed or fitted to launch torpedoes;
(c) Are designed for a speed greater than twenty knots.
(6) Auxiliary Vessels are naval surface vessels the standard displacement of which exceeds 100 tons (102 metric tons), which are normally employed on fleet duties or as troop transports, or in some other way than as fighting ships, and which are not specifically built as fighting ships, provided they have none of the following characteristics:
(a) Mount a gun with a calibre exceeding 6.1 in (155 mm.);
(b) Mount more than eight guns with a calibre exceeding 3 in (76 mm.);
(c) Are designed or fitted to launch torpedoes;
(d) Are designed for protection by armour plate:
(e) Are designed for a speed greater than twenty-eight knots;
(f) Are designed or adapted primarily for operating aircraft at sea;
(g) Mount more than two aircraft-lauching apparatus.

Arleigh Burke class ships

Displacement: Fully loaded:

• Flight I: 8,315 t (8,184 long tons; 9,166 short tons) Light displacement: approx. 6,800 long tons (6,900 t)
• Flight II: 8,400 t (8,300 long tons; 9,300 short tons)
• Flight IIA: 9,200 t (9,100 long tons; 10,100 short tons)
• Flight III: 9,800 t (9,600 long tons; 10,800 short tons)

So, depending on whether there are or are not any ships of other non-Black Sea navies present, there is room for up to 2 Burkes or up to 6 LCS's. USS Mount Whitney (LCC-20) displaces 16,790 (long) tons (16,525 metric tons) standard and 18,874 (long) tons (19,176.89 metric tons) full load and she sailed into the Black Sea with an escort: guided missile destroyer USS Cole (DDG-67), displacing 6,736 metric tons (6,630 long tons) standard and 8,433 metric tons (8,300 long tons ) full load. Since one long ton is equal to 1,016 kg (2,240 pounds), tonnage in long tons is less than that in metric tons. Combined standard displacement here is 16,790+6,630=23,420 tons. Which is well under the 2/3*45,000 = 30,000 tons allowed.
http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/112894/start/-1
http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/69708/start/-1

Good example of how this works/good explanation:
Russian Navy Blog: I'm no lawyer, but...The 1936 Montreux Convention

 

[cnleio]

France no doubt !!!!

 

[cabatli_53]

I voted to fast for Turkey, but soon after that, I realized the error of my ways. Obviously France is tops in the Med area. Turkey's pretty buffed up too.

Turkey invests big for strategic naval assets. Many of those projects have already been proceeding. Once they finished and Navy received required numbers of warship/support/auxiliary ships, I think Turkey will be top/the strongest naval forces of Mediterranean but It takes time. In this aspect, Franch is top in Med at present.

1-Franch
2-Turkey
3-Italy
4-Spain

The members who is willing to know some grounding informations about ongoing warship/sub projects of Turkish Navy, can take a look at those quotes.


The project signed with foreign contactors to construct them in Turkey with satisfactory contribution.

Juan Carlos LHD (1) + F35B (Sedef shipyard)

U-214TN (6) (Turkish industry provides %65+ contribution ) + Milden domestic submarine project

From design to development/construction: National warship projects

Milgem Block-1 (99m)

TCG Heybeliada (F-511)
TCG Büyükada (F-512)
TCG Burgazada (F-513)
TCG Kinaliada (F-514)

Istanbul class frigate (110m) (4+4)

TCG İSTANBUL(F-515)
TCG İZMİR(F-516)
TCG İZMİT(F-517)
TCG İÇEL(F-518)

TF-2000 AAW frigate (140-150m) (4 Anti-Air Warfare Frigate)

Main radar compex of TF-2000 project called CAFRAD (2018)

Dearsan shipyard Tuzla class boats (16)
P1200 P1207 P1214
P1201 P1208 P1215
P1202 P1209
P1203 P1210
P1204 P1211
P1205 P1212
P1206 P1213

Turkish Assault Boat (4+6)

 

[cabatli_53]

Domestic auxiliary/support vessel project group !

Logistic/Auxiliary ship projects

Adik shipyard LCT (8)

Adik shipyard LST (2)

Selah shipyard LDG (2)

STM FRS (1)

Istanbul shipyard Resque and Towing vessel (2)

Istanbul shipyard Submarine Reque mother ship (1)

RMK marine S&R vessel (4)

Domestic Striking/Defensive weapon group

Main striking missile/torpedo projects of Navy:

Akya family (Heavy/light weight) torpedo project. (2017)
Atmaca SSM (280km range): 2016 delivery
Gezgin LACM (1000+km range): 2018 delivery
Mizrak-D Block-1: 16km
Mizrak-D Block-2: 30km

Defensive missile projects of Navy:

Hisar-A Low Altitude Surface to Air missile: 15km range (2018)
Hisar-O Medium Altitude Surface to Air missile: 30+km range (2018)


Close in weapon project:

Korkut-D 35mm CIWS

 

[Dr Gupta]

France of course

 

[500]

France is the USA of the Mediterranean. With nuclear subs and aircraft carriers no one else comes even close and wont come in near future.

 

[Oublious]

France is the USA of the Mediterranean. With nuclear subs and aircraft carriers no one else comes even close and wont come in near future.

Having Nuke subs and aircraft carriers doesn'nt means strongest. Nuke subs are faster detectable then conventional subs.

If you have a intention to interfer a country on the other side of the world than you have a nuke powered vessel. That France have nuke powered vessels does not means they are beyond every one. Lets talk what nuke powered vessel means on the battlefield.

 

[500]

Having Nuke subs and aircraft carriers doesn'nt means strongest.

Of course it means.

Nuke subs are faster detectable then conventional subs.

No. It was 50 years ago.

If you have a intention to interfer a country on the other side of the world than you have a nuke powered vessel. That France have nuke powered vessels does not means they are beyond every one. Lets talk what nuke powered vessel means on the battlefield.

Nuclear submarine allows u fast maneuvering, unlimited range and all submerged operation. Diesel submarine cant move fast - its snorkel speed is limited to some 7 knots only and its very very vulnerable at snorkel + there are weather limitations. AIP submarines improve submerged operation but still range is limited and speed is only about 4 knots. Sorry but nuclear subs are simply a different league.

 

[cabatli_53]

Of course it means.


No. It was 50 years ago.


Nuclear submarine allows u fast maneuvering, unlimited range and all submerged operation. Diesel submarine cant move fast - its snorkel speed is limited to some 7 knots only and its very very vulnerable at snorkel + there are weather limitations. AIP submarines improve submerged operation but still range is limited and speed is only about 4 knots. Sorry but nuclear subs are simply a different league.

I don't know If there is a plan to construct new one but Acc to wiki:
Franch has;
1 Aircraft carrier 1980 built;

3 Mistral LHD
4 Nuclear + 6 conventional submarines

I think Those figures don't make French navy an unreachable force for future...

 

[Oublious]

Of course it means.


No. It was 50 years ago.


Nuclear submarine allows u fast maneuvering, unlimited range and all submerged operation. Diesel submarine cant move fast - its snorkel speed is limited to some 7 knots only and its very very vulnerable at snorkel + there are weather limitations. AIP submarines improve submerged operation but still range is limited and speed is only about 4 knots. Sorry but nuclear subs are simply a different league.

For open sea like the ocean you have nukes, litteral waters what mediterranean sea is, you don't need nukes and you won't use it. Too noisy for mediterranean sea,. You are right when you are talking about the unlimitted feul advantage. Depends wher you are using a nuke sub.

 

[500]

I don't know If there is a plan to construct new one but Acc to wiki:
Franch has;
1 Aircraft carrier 1980 built;

2001. Its only CATOBAR aircaft carrier beside the US.

4 Nuclear + 6 conventional submarines

4 SSBN + 6 SSN. All nuclear.

I think Those figures don't make French navy an unreachable force for future...

Who comes close?

For open sea like the ocean you have nukes, litteral waters what mediterranean sea is, you don't need nukes and you won't use it. Too noisy for mediterranean sea,. You are right when you are talking about the unlimitted feul advantage. Depends wher you are using a nuke sub.

U are talking in terms of 1950-es. Modern nuclears subs are not noisy