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Whitherwards Indian politics ?

:) i dont need to compare a false secularism in anway to anything.
Actually this statement would have a lot more meaning if you actually understood the concept of secularism and its applications. Your posts so far have indicated to the contrary.
Jana said:
If tommorrow Hindu Fanatic oragnisations push for banning religious practices of other faiths on pretext that it would help control law and order it means you will ban all other religions. right ?
:what: Are these honest questions or are you trying feign daftness just for the sake of being difficult?
Do you have any idea what a mammoth task it is for the government to ban any religious practice and/or social and tribal customs in India? This is not some unstable banana republic state where some random guy starts making up his own rules because his stash of anti-depressants ran out. In order for the state to enact the kind of things you're blabbing here, they'd have to go through some heroic measures which would assure the destruction of their political party; a risk nobody is willing to take.

Jana said:
There are laws for controling law and order and if these are implemented with sincerity you dont need to stop people from other religions from practicing their faith.
HAHAHAHAHA put the crack pipe down. What reality have you been living in? India is so severely divided along its faith and communal lines that it has become such an easy target for any miscreant to set it off with the hopes of inciting violence of epic proportions. Also, India is a developing nation with crippling poverty and abundant uneducated masses where law and order has been extremely hard to establish. Its going to take a long time before this will change.

I do however find it hilarious that you, a resident of the NWFP, one of world's most notorious lawless region starts making comments about the "sincerity" of legal implementation.
 
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Yet again you've managed to miss the point entirely:yahoo::yahoo:. Scriptural contents are a non-issue because the legislation does not abide by the religious code of any particular belief system. That btw is called secularism :)

Legalisation on the basis of religion :)



The ban on cow slaughter, or the US ban on culling dogs for the sake of food reflect the social outlook of the majority of the populace, which gets enacted through legislation pushed forth by the representatives of those people. This is called democracy :)

urghh what a silly comparison. Dogs are not allowed to cull because majority of dont consider it good for the human consumption where as ban on Cow slaughtering is purly on Religious basis in India not for mercy for the animal. If it was the case why Hindus dont have same mercy for chickens.

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So while I find your ill informed rants entertaining, you still lose.
India-1; Jana-0

Jana V entire India

Well not bad ;)

too tired to reply more now will reply u some other time
:enjoy:
 
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Briefing: Hinduvata bans freedom of religion in India

27 September 2003

The Indian states of Tamil Nadu and Gujarat succeeded in passing anti-conversion laws. These laws intend to prevent Dalits, ‘untouchables’ or low-caste Hindus, converting to non-Hindu faiths...

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27th September 2003

Briefing: Hinduvata bans freedom of religion in India

Tamil Nadu and Gujarat draft anti-conversion laws

In October 2002 and April 2003 Hindu fundamentalists in the Indian states of Tamil Nadu and Gujarat succeeded in passing anti-conversion laws. These laws intend to prevent Dalits, ‘untouchables’ or low-caste Hindus, converting to non-Hindu faiths, especially Islam and Christianity. The second objective of the anti-conversion laws is to further marginalise India’s Muslim and Christian populations in the quest for ‘Hinduvata’ or an all-Hindu India. With a total of six Indian states operating such laws, the fear is that other states may follow suit.

Indian pluralist framework under siege

From the coming to power and influence of Indira Gandhi in the late 1970s, India’s secular and pluralist framework has been under siege for the last quarter century. Indira Gandhi’s rule witnessed a gradual shift away from the secular legacy imparted to post-independence India by its founder and first president Jawaharlal Nehru (also father of Indira Gandhi). Indira Gandhi’s lurch to the right saw an increased pandering towards Hindu chauvinism along with the increased marginalisation of important and substantial religious minorities such as India’s 150 million Muslims and Punjab’s Sikhs. By the late 1980s under Rajiv Gandhi Congress (I)’s fifty-year political consensus over India began to falter and the still obscure extreme-right Hindu fundamentalist movement began its emergence from India’s political fringe.

Cometh Hinduvata: Electoral emergence of the BJP

The nation-wide emergence of the fascist BJP in the early 1990s witnessed India’s Hindu fundamentalist movement steadily occupy national and regional power. This newly acquired confidence was demonstrated in the 1992 India-wide communal strife initiated by the BJP and its sister organisations over the dispute surrounding the 16th century Babri mosque at Ayodhya. The BJP leadership responsible for then India’s most bloody communal violence since partition now runs India, with the BJP leader Atal Behari Vajpayee as India’s current prime minister.

Since the late 1990s the BJP has lead a coalition national government. This has permitted the right-wing BJP and its Hindu fundamentalist ideologues to further pressurise and discriminate against India’s Muslim and Christian minorities, develop the ‘Hindu nuclear bomb’, accelerate military hostilities and human rights abuses in the predominately Muslim state of Kashmir and effect confrontation with neighbouring Pakistan. Late 2003 saw the BJP consolidate its electoral grip over important Indian states such as Gujarat, which witnessed the bloody 2002 anti-Muslim massacres under the BJP state administration (see IHRC report ‘Gujarat: The ongoing genocide’).

Hindu fundamentalist movements and the all-Hindu polity

Taking their cue from the fascist programmes of Mussolini and Hitler, the BJP and its ideological parent the quasi-paramilitary RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) and its sister organisation the VHP (World Hindu Council) have succeeded in pushing their racist agenda of Hinduvata to national prominence and centre stage in India’s political life.

The Hinduvata programme conceives India as an all-Hindu polity. The main target of the Hinduvata campaign is India’s Muslims. The mere physical existence of Muslims is considered as an objectionable and historically disruptive factor. Many within the Hindu fundamentalist movement openly talk of culturally and physically cleansing India of its Muslim population, much akin to Serbian ethnic cleansing campaigns of Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. Thus, the Hindu fundamentalist movement collectively posits two choices for Indian Muslims; either convert to Hinduism or face death.

Dalit (Low-caste Hindus): Conversion to non-Hindu faiths for human dignity

There are an estimated 160 million Dalits in India, constituting 16% to 20% of the entire population. Under the insurmountable caste system they suffer the indignity of ‘untouchability’, view by Hindus of middle and high castes as not just symbolically unpure, but more so physically (see dalit homes for sale apartments at dalitstan.com).
This has lead to their virtual exclusion from mainstream society. They are not permitted to enter Hindu temples, draw water from the same wells as other Hindus and live under a system of apartheid, confined to certain urban and rural quarters or geographical locales. Violence is a daily theme for Dalits and higher caste Hindus murder and rape Dalits with de facto impunity. Furthermore, Dalits are often excluded from or segregated in schooling, the job market and other socio-economic amenities. India’s Dalit population is characterised by epidemic poverty and poor health.

Defenders of the caste system, claim that its practice is sanctified by Hindu religious texts.

In order to escape the oppression of the caste system and to repudiate their ‘untouchibility’ status, Dalits often turn to non-Hindu faiths. Dalits have historically and still do opt to convert to Islam, Buddhism or Christianity. As one Dalit convert to Buddhism elaborated in a 2001 BBC interview: “It is our mental liberation that conversion is aimed at. If we gain confidence, then the higher castes will, eventually, be compelled to change too”.

The historic bulk of converts to Islam in India and the wider Indian Sub-Continent were drawn from lower-caste Hindus, including Dalits, eager to escape the discrimination and limitations of the Hindu caste system. The same was true with historic and contemporary conversions to Buddhism and Christianity. Within the last several years Dalits have threatened mass conversions to Buddhism, Christianity (both recent evangelical Protestant Christianity and the more established Syrian Orthodox Church in the southern state of Kerala) and Islam. Increased evangelical Christian activity and conversion amongst Dalit and tribal groups in recent years, as well as the continued trickle of small Dalit groups to Islam, has invoked the ire and anger of extreme-right wing Hindu fundamentalists. Their insecurity surrounding voluntary conversions prompted the passing of anti-conversion laws in the southern state of Tamil Nadu and the western state of Gujarat.

Brahmanic chauvism: Pre- and post-independence anti-conversion laws

Anti-conversion laws are not recent phenomena in India. Prior to 1947 several princely states passed such laws e.g., the Sarguja State Apostasy Act (1945), Udaipur State Anti-Conversion Act (1946). Post-independence India saw Congress (I) attempt to pass similar national laws, but its evident bias against Muslims and other minorities saw it fail. Nevertheless an array of discriminatory and sectarian national laws saw their way onto India’s statue books. These imported various legal penalties for ceasing to be a Hindu upon conversion to a non-Hindu faith. These legislative acts were: the Hindu Minority and Guardianship Act 1956; the Hindu Adoption and Maintenance Act 1956; the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 and; the Hindu Succession Act 1955. Although it was claimed that these acts were designed to discourage “forced” conversion, Dalit and other low-caste groups claim that the legislation was to prevent their conversion to non-Hindu religions, especially Islam and Christianity and hence keep low-caste Hindus in Hinduism. Many point to the clauses in the laws which allow the ‘reconversion’ of previously low-caste Hindus to Hinduism as evidence of this.

Towards the end of the 1960s and 1970s various states passed anti-conversion laws in response to Hindu sensitivities over (low-caste) Hindu conversions to non-Hindu faiths. Orissa state passed the Freedom of Religion Act 1967; Madhya Pradesh state passed its version, Dharma Swatantraya Adhiniyam 1968 and; Arunachal Pradest state passed the Freedom of Religion Act 1978. The Union Territory of Tripura also passed similar local legislation. Furthermore, following the 1981 Meenakshipuram conversion of thousands of Dalit and other low-caste Hindus to Islam in Tamil Nadu, the then Congress (I) Ministry of Home Affairs urged all states to adopt similar anti-conversion laws along the lines of the above states. This call was resurrected by the BJP’s anti-Muslim national president, Venkaiakh Naidv, during its October 2002 electoral campaign in Gujarat.

Overview of anti-conversion laws in Tamil Nadu and Gujarat

On October 5 2002 the pro-Hindu fundamentalist leadership of Tamil Nadu passed the Prohibition of Forcible Conversion of Religious Ordinance Act. In April 2003 the BJP fascist administration in Gujarat passed its version, the Dharam Swatantrata Vidheya. The laws have come under severe local, national and international criticism.

Dalit groups and leaders claim that the recent laws are designed to prevent them to convert them to non-Hindu faiths, especially Islam and Christianity and to perpetuate their caste-based bondage. Minority groups such as Muslims and Christians claim that the laws are intended to restrict their religious freedoms and criminalise their activities.

In defence of the anti-conversion laws Hindu fundamentalists claim that they are intended to prevent forced or coerced conversions, especially of low-caste and tribal groups. However, as pointed out by many critics of the laws, there is no evidence of alleged forced conversions to non-Hindu faiths, including Islam and Christianity, in contemporary India. Both the Tamil Nadu and Gujarat laws have been condemned as being unduly “vague”, “unspecific” and based on “presumption”. The Tamil Nadu act illustrates this in the claim that its legislative provisions are motivated by conversions that disturb ‘public order, morality and health’, despite no evidence for such conversions. Its vague definitions as to what constitutes forced or coerced conversions are “allurements” and “attempt to convert”. The law further imposes a three year imprisonment and a heavy fine. The Gujarat law is worded in a similar fashion. It adds a clause which makes it compulsory to seek permission from a magistrate to convert to Islam or Christianity. However, the law exempts Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains, as Hindu fundamentalists, much to objection of these three faiths, determine them to be offshoots of Hinduism.

The ambiguous and discriminatory anti-conversion laws deliberately leaves the scope for misuse against Muslims and Christians wide open, especially those involved in social and educational projects e.g., AIDS awareness, water access, etc. Indeed this has already been the case. In Gujarat following its anti-conversion law, house-to-house questioning of non-Hindus has taken place. Whilst in Tamil Nadu numerous Christians have experienced harassment from authorities and in other areas of the state have ceased activities following threats from Hindu fundamentalists. It has been reported that Dalits have travelled to neighbouring states such as Kerala and Pandichery to convert to Islam.

Vocal criticisms of the anti-conversion laws

Tamil Nadu’s and Gujarat’s anti-conversion laws have been publicly and vociferously denounced by India’s Attorney General, Soli Jorabjee, himself a one-time Hindu firebrand. A lone voice in high-public office, Jorabjee condemns the laws as hugely disruptive to India’s communal harmony: “These state laws have the effect of deterring genuine conversions and impair the substance of religious freedom guaranteed by the constitution … One’s religious belief is essentially a private matter as is conversion from one religion to another. It is a result of the deep-seated inner convictions”.

For M.H. Jawairullah, president of the Tamil Nadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagan, the recent anti-conversion laws reveal that: “The real purpose of these anti-conversion laws is to place ‘Hindutva’ at the centre stage of the electoral battle for some key states in 2003 and Parliament in 2004. This is borne from the fact that frontal organisations of the Sangh Parivar - RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal and Hindu Munnani (Front) - as well as the BJP top leadership have launched a vigorous campaign for enacting similar law for the whole country by the Central Government. The hidden agenda is blatantly communal and militates against the secular character and fabric of India. Because of this agenda, religious minorities, living in peace for centuries, have developed a fear psychosis and there is a widespread feeling of insecurity”.

Dalit defiance of anti-conversion laws

Both pre- and -post Tamil Nadu and Gujarat anti-conversion laws have seen Dalits hold several mass conversions to Buddhism and Christianity in defiance of Hindu fundamentalists. In Tamil Nadu activists from All India Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Federation made a December 2002 announcement of a mass conversion to Buddhism on the anniversary of the death of legendary Dalit leader Dr B R Ambedkar. However, in the same month authorities arrested the organisers of mass conversions of Dalits to Christianity and Buddhism. In Gujarat the World Buddhist Council announced it will hold a mass conversion of 10,000 low-caste Hindus to Buddhism in October 2003 similar to the November 2001 conversion of thousands of low-caste Hindus to Buddhism in Delhi, India’s capital.

Warning from India’s history: Lessons from Hindu persecutions of 9th century Buddhism

The recent anti-conversion laws have emboldened Hindu fundamentalists and have directly assaulted freedom of religion in India. The laws demonstrate that India’s constitution is malleable to the agenda of Hinduvata. The immediate future and long-term prospects of India’s religious and ethnic minorities, especially for Muslims, is precarious. With the recent publication of the long awaited archaeological report on Ayodhya accompanied by the Bombay (renamed ‘Mumbai’ by Hindu fundamentalists after a local mythical Goddess) bombings, India’s communal landscape is fractious to say the least.

For India’s Muslims and Christians, as well as other religious minorities, history bears a prophetic warning. Contemporary Hindu fundamentalism, with its fascist tendencies and violent urges towards India’s non-Hindu religious and ethnic groups, has a historical precedent. Between 3 BC and 9 AD Buddhism was the national religion of India and was followed by the majority of India’s population. This aspect of Indian history is almost forgotten, ignored or denied by the Hindu fundamentalist movement. With the resurgence of Hindu fanaticism in 9th AD Hindu kings and priests in the name of the revival of Hinduism almost wiped out Buddhism from the whole of India. Today, their Hinduvata-guided descendants have India’s Muslims as their main targets for a possible repeat of this ominous history.

IHRC sees strength and hope in India’s diversity

IHRC unreservedly condemns the recent anti-conversion laws in Tamil Nadu and Gujarat, as well as all discriminatory laws on India’s national and state statute books. IHRC calls for their immediate removal. They violate freedom of religion enshrined in India’s constitution and serve only to entrench communal inequality.

IHRC further condemns the Hinduvata movement as the antithesis of the Indian tradition of diversity. IHRC believes that India’s strength and national reconcilability is to found in its diversity. This diversity, if recognised fully, can become the epitome of communal harmony and a bulwark against religious fanaticism of all shades.


IHRC - Briefing: Hinduvata bans freedom of religion in India
 
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If India is secluar than why poor Dalits are stopped from choosing the religion of their choice??

And what is the religion of their choice?

Heard of Neo Buddhists?

They are my troops.
 
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Legalisation on the basis of religion

Better than the Sharia being imposed on all, damn their religion!!

It is not against religion. It is against fraudulent practices and allurement!!

Learn to go into the depth of the issue.

No wonder journalists write crap and agitate the people. They are so illiterate and so out of depth with issues and yet think they are God's own Gonads with the Sun Shining out of their Posterior (as the saying goes)!!
 
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Better than the Sharia being imposed on all, damn their religion!!

It is not against religion. It is against fraudulent practices and allurement!!

Learn to go into the depth of the issue.

No wonder journalists write crap and agitate the people. They are so illiterate and so out of depth with issues and yet think they are God's own Gonads with the Sun Shining out of their Posterior (as the saying goes)!!


If you want to debate things in my country post it in another thread. I assure you wont run like some of you by derailing threads ;)


BTW Sir i never knew that In India shun shines from Posterior of Indian Journalists :what:


Now coming back to Indian secularism
 
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So much so for your Indian secularizm to give freedom to individual :)

And BTW i am happy Dalits choos any religion for getting their due rights.

And one more thing those poor Dalits who had choosen Christianity to convert were targeted badly by the Elit class Brahman Hindus.

So much so for the false propaganda of secularizm by India.

LOL perception is slave of Purpose .. you see what you want to see and not what is truth .
Biased and propoganda based education does that to a whole society.. SO i see you as a victim ..

Here is a Mirror for you not from someone from West or Indian but from a fellow Pakistani ..
WATANDOST: Inside News About Pakistan and its Neighborhood: State of Minorities in Pakistan

As i mentioned any one can convert and change his religion .. and could you give me the link of this so called incident of Brahmin attacks
 
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LOL perception is slave of Purpose .. you see what you want to see and not what is truth .
Biased and propoganda based education does that to a whole society.. SO i see you as a victim ..

Here is a Mirror for you not from someone from West or Indian but from a fellow Pakistani ..
WATANDOST: Inside News About Pakistan and its Neighborhood: State of Minorities in Pakistan

As i mentioned any one can convert and change his religion .. and could you give me the link of this so called incident of Brahmin attacks


ok Let me post other links other than that one.







Pastor held in Hyderabad for holding prayer service at home

From our Correspondent



Hyderabad: A Pastor has been arrested in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh for allegedly creating nuisance in the area. His crime: He has been conducting prayer services at his residence.

Pastor K Moses of Good Shepherd Prayer Fellowship, a resident of IV Phase, Kukatpally Housing Board of Hyderabad, was taken into custody on 19 August 2007 at the instance of one of his neighbours residing in the same building. There was no objection from the owner of the building whereas the neighbour, Monohar Chetti, a police officer working Anti Corruption Bureau took serious objections to the prayer services in the Pastor’s apartment.

On 19 August 2007, when the prayer service was going on, Manohar, along with a few Hindu fundamentalists, filed a case against the Pastor alleging that the Pastor was creating nuisance in the locality. He brought in two police men from the local police station and took the Pastor away to meet the Circle Inspector of JNTU Police Station Kukatpally.

On their arrival at the police station, the CI questioned the Pastor and other believers and warned them not to conduct the prayer service in that place. Upon coming to know about the development, All India Christian Council (aicc) leaders, including aicc district presidents C Babu (Medak) and TR Raju (Ranga Reddy), rushed to the police station. They held talks with the police officers and got the Pastor and other believers released on bail.

On the following day the Pastor and the believers were taken to court. The judge asked them to pay a fine of Rs 50 and let them go.


AICCINDIA


BTW we are talking about Indian Secularism not treatment of minorities.

Go and post your jib in another thread and i will discuss with you the state of minorities in the two countries.






But let us first look at Hindu secularism one by one
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ok Let me post other links other than that one.







Pastor held in Hyderabad for holding prayer service at home

From our Correspondent



Hyderabad: A Pastor has been arrested in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh for allegedly creating nuisance in the area. His crime: He has been conducting prayer services at his residence.

Pastor K Moses of Good Shepherd Prayer Fellowship, a resident of IV Phase, Kukatpally Housing Board of Hyderabad, was taken into custody on 19 August 2007 at the instance of one of his neighbours residing in the same building. There was no objection from the owner of the building whereas the neighbour, Monohar Chetti, a police officer working Anti Corruption Bureau took serious objections to the prayer services in the Pastor’s apartment.

On 19 August 2007, when the prayer service was going on, Manohar, along with a few Hindu fundamentalists, filed a case against the Pastor alleging that the Pastor was creating nuisance in the locality. He brought in two police men from the local police station and took the Pastor away to meet the Circle Inspector of JNTU Police Station Kukatpally.

On their arrival at the police station, the CI questioned the Pastor and other believers and warned them not to conduct the prayer service in that place. Upon coming to know about the development, All India Christian Council (aicc) leaders, including aicc district presidents C Babu (Medak) and TR Raju (Ranga Reddy), rushed to the police station. They held talks with the police officers and got the Pastor and other believers released on bail.

On the following day the Pastor and the believers were taken to court. The judge asked them to pay a fine of Rs 50 and let them go.


AICCINDIA


BTW we are talking about Indian Secularism not treatment of minorities.

Go and post your jib in another thread and i will discuss with you the state of minorities in the two countries.






But let us first look at Hindu secularism one by one
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All India Chritian Council
Do i Need to comment on this biased missionary Sites gibbrish ??

Secularism is about treatment of minorities - Whom Am i Talking with ???
 
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Well first delhi now India. Any way tell me first why it can't be a rule.


Because some community feels hurt about that.

Hmmm, i have been thinking that india was a secular country. Sorry i was wrong
 
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Hmmm, i have been thinking that india was a secular country. Sorry i was wrong

oh so Islamic faith = Cutting and eating cow other wise it is oppressed?

Is islamic faith is so narrow that it get oppressed without cutting cow and eating it?
 
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oh so Islamic faith = Cutting and eating cow other wise it is oppressed?

Is islamic faith is so narrow that it get oppressed without cutting cow and eating it?


And tell me is Hindu faith that much narrow that it dosnt not allow own Indians from other faiths to practic their beliefs??

Give me one justification Why Hindus have right to stop other people from eating Cow meat ???
 
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And tell me is Hindu faith that much narrow that it dosnt not allow own Indians from other faiths to practic their beliefs??

Give me one justification Why Hindus have right to stop other people from eating Cow meat ???

Think of the poor sweet cow Jana...why do you want to eat her? What harm has she done to you?
 
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Think of the poor sweet cow Jana...why do you want to eat her? What harm has she done to you?

Chickens are more sweet than Cow why Hindus dont ban culling of Chickens then? What harm they have done to you ? :)
 
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