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Vedic sanskrit is like it is by origin/design/meter (whatever combo you believe) to basically preserve the sound exactly. You have to learn at least one Veda to really know why (the process also has many specific tools like memorizing back to front and front to back equally in word order, so to prevent any chance of mistake, much like a code checker)....its not flexible to be used to write/speak new things/ideas...even new grammars/shortcuts/innovations. That was the purpose of classical sanskrit (and of course prakrits which is even more easier given it basically took the form of the local influences wherever it was). Classical sanskrit itself took much influence from Dravidian languages it is increasingly being found (and vice versa).
Hmm, thanks a lot mate for this part ( specially blue ), now it's clear to me that what was the actual purpose for vedic sanksrit. Now it's very much understandable!

Rest I will let Joe answer :P for Bengali script pronounciations of Sanskrit. You are right that English will do a lousy job.
Yes waiting for his answer ;).

Are you saying the transliteration and translation are exactly the same (into Bengali)? Bengali (And all prakrit descendants) has all the script it needs to capture Sanskrit (all indic languages essentially do) I think...but not 100% sure. Joe would know more on this I think. I am only familiar with devanagari (and grantha) for written sanskrit (be it Vedic or Classical).
Nah I am not sure , I can't read or write even a single word from devnagari, so no way to learn how sanksrit works, although I can speak in hindi well and can understand hindi very well!

Even Bengali has some different pronunciations as for Agni I hear from TV series the sound is Aagni Dev (aa= u of an umbrella ) and in Bengali we simply pronunce agni as ogni ( অগ্নি) ; although it's a tatsam/direct sanksrit word in Bangla language, still vocal is slightly different! ( so no way that other rules can be same , but again I have no idea sorry for that, my sanksrit knowledge is limited to some mantras that I hear from durga puja, and also from those mantras chanted in TV series ).

Some goes for many others like Arya/Aryan we pronounce it as arjo/আর্য and that sound like G of Argentina, actually it sounds like "J".

@Nilgiri
 
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and in Bengali we simply pronunce agni as ogni ( অগ্নি) ; although it's a tatsam/direct sanksrit word in Bangla language

I will let Joe answer. I have an idea what is going on here....but I think he can explain it lot better. I think Bengali (and eastern languages more generally) chose to keep the very original Sanskrit sound as their inherent vowel...but mostly in Bengali its pronounced closer to ô (rather than a that most others went with):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_alphabet#Vowels

(read the notes)

Basically you need to "know" the Sanskrit way (rather than Bengali common way) to pronounce it in the context sometimes.

This may help too:

https://debduttapaul.com/2018/09/17/transliteration/
 
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From another thread,


Oh so Prakrit is a direct descendant of original vedic language that we actually call vedic sanksrit?

And since Bengali also came from Prakrit , so Bengali is basically the daughter of vedic language and not sanksrit?

Exactly! (Bengali and several other modern languages came from Magadhi Prakrit, that was in its day considered the most desirable version. There are several modern languages in western India that are descended from the other main dialect, Suraseni Prakrit).

However I read somewhere that the language of vedic is chhandos ( ছান্দস), so it's actually not sanksrit?

ঠিক তা নয়, ছন্দ রূপে লিখিত ছিল।
The language of the Vedas was Indo-Aryan, and the Rg Veda, for instance, was in verse form, as hymns. Furthermore, this Indo-Aryan, taken and put into severe and strict grammatical form, with some 'archaic' verbs, nouns and adjectives eliminated, became known as Sanskrit. Indo-Aryan itself changed; experts and specialists are able to detect the changes between the earliest versions and the later ones, changes and differences that may have been very many years apart; some say centuries apart.

In terms of pronunciation in prose form, both were identical; however, over the centuries - even millennia - changes came in other ways.
In Bengali, we still have at least two 's' sounds, 's' (দন্ত্য-স) and 'sh' (তালিব্য-শ); in most other modern derivatives of Prakrit, this has been lost; only 's' remains.
ভীষণ বড় ভুল করেছি ; ব্যাপারটা ঠিক উল্টো।
আমরা দুটি শব্দের পার্থক্য হারিয়ে ফেলেছি; কোনো কোনো জায়গায় হিন্দি তে তফাৎ টা রয়ে গ্যাছে।


Back to basics: so there is no distinction in pronunciation, only in grammatical forms; the distinction in pronunciation reduces to the proper way to chant the hymns, they are not, strictly speaking, spoken but chanted.


So Dada is it possible to learn some difference between the pronunciations? Can you write those pronunciations ( few same sentences both in sanksrit and old vedic version ) in Bengali so that I can understand clearly? As I think in English wording proper sound ( vocals) of sanksrit is impossible to write.
@Joe Shearer
@Nilgiri

Ps: I have a copy of 4 Vedas and also a copy of Gita.
Both Vedas and Gita has sanksrit verses ( in Bengali wording ) and Bengali translation of those verses .

Yet I found no difference between two books, so I am a bit confused! Probably my knowledge is too little to understand those differences as I only can read those verses in Bengali wording . That's why I am requesting for some examples :).

First, I have run out of my fund of wisdom. The one to guide you will be @Nilgiri; his neighbours, the Namboodiris, are the ones who still preserve the pure form of Rg Vedic and other Vedic chanting and rhythm. I think he even hinted in an expansive moment that his father's grandmother was a lady from that sub-section. Most Iyers and Iyengars who learn the Vedas may be expected to speak it in the proper form, with the proper cadences and rhythms, compared to north Indians, and far, far better than Bengali priests, except scholars from the Sanskrit College; general Bengali pronunciation comes in for a lot of amused and disdainful criticism from the experts.

Second, pronunciation is exactly the same; only while normally Sanskrit might be expected to be in both prose and poetry (chanted rhymes) form, the Indo-Aryan of the Vedas was chanted, for the hymns; there are other sections that might have been spoken differently. Listen to this:

 
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I think he even hinted in an expansive moment that his father's grandmother was a lady from that sub-section.

No she was Iyer like rest of us. How and why her mother tongue was Malayali is something I will have to enquire my dad about (its strange I never asked him, or I did and forgot)...but I think overall it was just an overal effect of language continuum in the area (talayalam etc)...either that or she may have come from Travancore Iyer area....where they learned Malayalam far more extensively.

Most Iyers and Iyengars who learn the Vedas may be expected to speak it in the proper form, with the proper cadences and rhythms, compared to north Indians, and far, far better than Bengali priests

Its true...we are very picky. Last one in my family to actually learn the full (Yajur) Veda of our lineage was my great-grandpa (husband of the same great grandma we were talking about)...and he knew a good portion of the rest of them too (especially the common parts for all important recitations). I had the honour to meet him a few times, he lived well into his 90s. But then again it was his full profession from early age, he was a full time officiating priest for ceremonies and the likes.

My dad had very much formal upbringing (given he was brought up by great grandpa and great grandma) than I did in proper Sanskrit and Vedic instruction (he didn't master the Yajur Veda but I would say out of our living family members, he is by far the closest, he actually commited to it in his youth thanks to great grandpa).

But my great grandpa...I will never forget it....you could tell in his face right away when my dad would make a slight mistake (and even worse when the recitation of a verse was not up to scratch). His face would scrunch up like someone scratched nails on blackboard basically...it was just that awful to him when it happened hah (probably exacerbated by thinking this is the one I taught?!?!). Till that time I always assumed my dad's Sanskrit was perfect heh....bad assumption! Thankfully I never tested my Sanskrit all that much with great grandpa around...though he would probably make an exception for me compared to my dad.

general Bengali pronunciation comes in for a lot of amused and disdainful criticism from the experts.

Yes my dad commentary whenever he would hear a typical North Indian recitation in Sanskrit (say in a movie or similar) was quite hysteric sometimes...but normally just disdainfully corrective...and he actually taught me a few dead giveaways as to the reciter being North Indian (and too much "Hindi influence" showing etc).
 
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WHEW!
@Nilgiri
Thanks for the rescue! You have included a lot I missed out, especially about Sanskrit and Prakrit going in parallel, and now it looks complete. The only thing that I would add is that Panini's reformation of the grammar made 'Sanskrit', Panini's codified version, different from Vedic Indo-Aryan, but it allowed clarity of composition, not just then, but for evermore, as the rules were now VERY clear and allowed for no ambiguity.

@Atlas
Please see my interpolated notes below, in red:

Not really....but in someways yes (it depends). The prakrit(s) we know about (evidence wise i.e written mostly and some analysis of spoken languages today) are descendants of the earlier sanskrit/"prakrit" that would have existed in the Vedic era.

Only the sanskrit from that era (I have been referring to this as Indo-Aryan, to distinguish between what there was, and the codification of Panini) was preserved (orally/aurally) because it was the highest register of the language (and designed specifically so there was little to no chance of mistakes happening in the mouth to ear learning system the earliest priests/bards devised, given the word sounds themselves were considered Word of God...i.e Sruti).

There would of course have been a more laypeople language used by the broader population in that time...which would qualify as what we call prakrits later. There is of course no evidence as to how it sounded given it was not passed in that time (where there was no writing, only spoken+hearing record that preserved the highest register for religious purposes...i.e what we call Vedic Sanskrit).



Again Sanskrit is simply the highest register of the indo-european language that predated written Prakrit (= Indo-Aryan) Bengali is definitely a direct descendant/relative of all (Vedic Sanskrit, Vedic Prakrit, Classical Sanskrit, Classical Prakrits and all their earliest descendants) of it....it is an Indic language, which is major branch of indo-european family. Just we have no direct idea about what Vedic "Prakrit" was like...it just has not been preserved in the oral tradition of that time (only vedic sanskrit was). Specifically, linguistics distinguishes between western versions derived from Suraseni Prakrit, and eastern versions derived from Magadhi Prakrit. We can say that Bengali is finally descended from Magadhi Prakrit. As is Assamese, Odiya, and Nepali.



That is just vedic sanskrit (specifically the meter, which is precisely designed and thus has poetic forms in prakrits, descendants and Hindustani etc). Classical Sanskrit is more vernacular use, thus does not have this "meter" in same way (though it is found in most major compositions etc) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_meter

Vedic Sanskrit after all is not very layperson friendly...in fact that is why classical sanskrit was later developed and codified (and even that is not very layperson friendly either but it does have direct links to most official registers today of the indic languages).

Vedic sanskrit is like it is by origin/design/meter (whatever combo you believe) to basically preserve the sound exactly. You have to learn at least one Veda to really know why (the process also has many specific tools like memorizing back to front and front to back equally in word order, so to prevent any chance of mistake, much like a code checker)....its not flexible to be used to write/speak new things/ideas...even new grammars/shortcuts/innovations. That was the purpose of classical sanskrit (and of course prakrits which is even more easier given it basically took the form of the local influences wherever it was). Classical sanskrit itself took much influence from Dravidian languages it is increasingly being found (and vice versa).

Rest I will let Joe answer :P for Bengali script pronounciations of Sanskrit. You are right that English will do a lousy job.



Are you saying the transliteration and translation are exactly the same (into Bengali)? Bengali (And all prakrit descendants) has all the script it needs to capture Sanskrit (all indic languages essentially do) I think...but not 100% sure. Joe would know more on this I think. I am only familiar with devanagari (and grantha) for written sanskrit (be it Vedic or Classical).

Yes, and no, @Nilgiri.

We have all the tools, almost exactly the same vowels and consonants, but some strange results:
  • Vowels - rounded; অ the simple 'a' sound, is 'awe' in Bengali, rather than the 'er' sound we get in Hindi and other Indic languages;
  • Consonants - mixed results.
    • In other languages, ন and ণ are different (in Hindi, for comparison, these are ; in Bengali, they are the same;
    • In other languages, sometimes they differentiate between শ, ষ, স, the palatal, retroflex and dental forms of 's'; in Bengali, they have merged, into dental 's' in a much-libelled much-caricatured Calcutta dialect (also found in proximate parts of West Bengal), and into palatal 's' in much of East Bengal, shading off into the aspirate 'h' in Assamese;
    • In other languages, specifically, in Hindi, the series য র ল ব is 'ya', 'ra', 'la', and 'wa' (or 'va'); in Bengali, the first and the last are transmuted to 'ja' and 'ba'. So the Hindi 'yuvak' transmutes to Bengali 'jubok'.
    • Compound letters are rendered with the second consonant silent; so 'Bhishma' becomes 'Bhishsha', 'atma' becomes 'atto'.
So there are changes, minor changes, but when put together in sentences and speech, they convey an alien element to north Indians (and to the accent-trained south Indian!!!).
 
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My car's broken down... I am so depressed :(

Couldn't go to work today because of the car :(

Not sure what happened to it... I parked it yesterday and it was absolutely fine... today the doors didnt open automatically so i was like what happened... and later it just didnt start... thought the battery is dead so i tried to jump start... the car showed lights for a second but then disappeared again...

The biggest problem is... its keyless semi auto so i can only press the button to start/stop while keeping the foot on break so there is no way to rev it if its not start automatically :(

If i remove the jump start cables for few minutes and jump start it again... I do see the dashboard screen and all the buttons working but as soon as i press the start button it starts giving errors like gearbox fault, engine fault, parking breaks failed take vehicle to garage etc... and then the battety dies again... There was no warning light ON until yesterday when I drove for about 100 miles... so apparently its something to do with low battery?
 
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My car's broken down... I am so depressed :(

Couldn't go to work today because of the car :(

Not sure what happened to it... I parked it yesterday and it was absolutely fine... today the doors didnt open automatically so i was like what happened... and later it just didnt start... thought the battery is dead so i tried to jump start... the car showed lights for a second but then disappeared again...

The biggest problem is... its keyless semi auto so i can only press the button to start/stop while keeping the foot on break so there is no way to rev it if its not start automatically :(

If i remove the jump start cables for few minutes and jump start it again... I do see the dashboard screen and all the buttons working but as soon as i press the start button it starts giving errors like gearbox fault, engine fault, parking breaks failed take vehicle to garage etc... and then the battety dies again... There was no warning light ON until yesterday when I drove for about 100 miles... so apparently its something to do with low battery?
Seems like too much technology!!

When did you purchase the battery? If it is not very old then its to do with the Data Unit.. Best to call AAA...
 
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WHEW!
@Nilgiri
Thanks for the rescue! You have included a lot I missed out, especially about Sanskrit and Prakrit going in parallel, and now it looks complete. The only thing that I would add is that Panini's reformation of the grammar made 'Sanskrit', Panini's codified version, different from Vedic Indo-Aryan, but it allowed clarity of composition, not just then, but for evermore, as the rules were now VERY clear and allowed for no ambiguity.

@Atlas
Please see my interpolated notes below, in red:



Yes, and no, @Nilgiri.

We have all the tools, almost exactly the same vowels and consonants, but some strange results:
  • Vowels - rounded; অ the simple 'a' sound, is 'awe' in Bengali, rather than the 'er' sound we get in Hindi and other Indic languages;
  • Consonants - mixed results.
    • In other languages, ন and ণ are different (in Hindi, for comparison, these are ; in Bengali, they are the same;
    • In other languages, sometimes they differentiate between শ, ষ, স, the palatal, retroflex and dental forms of 's'; in Bengali, they have merged, into dental 's' in a much-libelled much-caricatured Calcutta dialect (also found in proximate parts of West Bengal), and into palatal 's' in much of East Bengal, shading off into the aspirate 'h' in Assamese;
    • In other languages, specifically, in Hindi, the series য র ল ব is 'ya', 'ra', 'la', and 'wa' (or 'va'); in Bengali, the first and the last are transmuted to 'ja' and 'ba'. So the Hindi 'yuvak' transmutes to Bengali 'jubok'.
    • Compound letters are rendered with the second consonant silent; so 'Bhishma' becomes 'Bhishsha', 'atma' becomes 'atto'.
So there are changes, minor changes, but when put together in sentences and speech, they convey an alien element to north Indians (and to the accent-trained south Indian!!!).

That's really interesting Joe. Thank you kindly. I think @Atlas queries are more or less clarified now.
 
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A silly question here: is there a way to search all the posts (possibly from a particular member) that received positive rating? Thanks in advance.
 
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