What Babur thought about his heritage

[Charon]

It seems that Babur wasn't really proud about it who he really was and what his origins were as he wrote a stinging verse in his autobiography about the "Mughals"

"Were the Mughals an angel race, it would be bad,
Even writ in gold, the Mughal name would be bad."

What do you think about it? Were the Mughals just a bunch of self haters? We all know that they adopted the Persian language as the court language of the Mughal empire though the rulers were Turkic. What could be the reasons that Mughals have forgotten their native Turkic tongue?

 

[livingdead]

It seems that Babur wasn't really proud about it who he really was and what his origins were as he wrote a stinging verse in his autobiography about the "Mughals"

"Were the Mughals an angel race, it would be bad,
Even writ in gold, the Mughal name would be bad."

What do you think about it? Were the Mughals just a bunch of self haters? We all know that they adopted the Persian language as a court language though the rulers were Turkic. What could be the reasons that Mughals have forgotten their native Turkic tongue?

did babur wrote it or one of his poets?

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Mongol native language was Turkish?

 

[Charon]

did babur wrote it or one of his poets?

Yes it was Babur himself who rote these verses about Mughals in his own autobiography.

 

[Icewolf]

Well he was proud of his ancestors since he named his empire after his descendents empire, Genghis Khan!

 

[Indischer]

At Shan:

Their language was Turkic, not Turkish. Turkish is one of the several languages that belong to the Turkic language group. Most of the Central Asian Languages like Uyghur, Turkmen, Kazakh, Bashkir etc are all Turkic languages. And yes, the Mughals originally spoke Chagatai Turkic.

 

[jaibi]

I am Babur's descendent my family traces it geneology directly to Babur and I must say that in my own readings of Babur I have not seen such sentiments.

 

[Charon]

Mongol native language was Turkish?

Babur's native language was Chagatai Turkic which was also called "old Uzbek". He wrote his autobiography called Baburname in Chagatai Turkic but he was culturally very Persianized. Mughals spoke Chagatai Turkic as their court language until they changed officially to the Persian language.

The Mughal Empire (also Mog(h)ul, Persian: گُورکانِیان‎ Gūrkāniyān;[4] Urdu: مُغلِیَہ سَلطَنَت‎, Muġliyah Salṭanat,[5]) was an Persianate[6][7] empire extending over large parts of the Indian subcontinent and ruled by a dynasty of Chaghtai-Turkic origin.

The name Mughal is derived from the original homelands of the Timurids, the Central Asian steppes once conquered by Genghis Khan and hence known as Moghulistan, "Land of Mongols". Although early Mughals spoke the Chagatai language and maintained some Turko-Mongol practices, they became essentially Persianized[18] and transferred the Persian literary and high culture[18] to India, thus forming the base for the Indo-Persian culture and the spread of Islam in South Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughals

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

I don't consider the Mughals a bunch of self haters, in fact they made the right decisions to rule over a vast & diverse region.

Persia and the Mughals

The Mughal Empire, was one of the most important powers to ever rule over the Indian subcontinent. Although ethnically Turks, the Mughals regarded Persian culture as the epitome of refinement.

It can be argued that even though the Mughals were originally from Central Asia, over time they became a truly Indian empire incorporating and imbibing influences from their adopted home. A recent exhibit at the British Library in London entitled Mughal India brilliantly showcased this intermingling of Central and Southeast Asian cultures. There were clear Persian and Turkic influences on the Mughal court, and these were intermingled with Indian traditions. The Mughals maintained an interest in Turkish and Persian poetry and stories, and these two cultural influences on Mughal art and architecture continued until the end of the empire.

For example, Akbar commissioned a work called the Tarikh-i-Khandan-i-Timurriya about the ancestral line of the Mughals from Timur—who, as we recall, built an empire that stretched from Central Asia to the borders of modern-day India. Akbar also ordered the Baburnama to be translated from Turkish to Persian and to be illustrated. Akbar’s love for Persian poetry is very visible in his commissions of works like the the Darabnama and the Khamsa (Collected Poems) of the famous poet Nizami. This weakness for Persian poetry seemed to have passed from generation to generation, with each of the great Mughals commissioning illustrations of works by poets like Nizami, Firdausi, Hafiz and Sa’adi.

Since they were ruling over what was primarily a foreign people, they had to adopt aspects of the local cultures to be accepted. The Mughal Empire can be safely considered a local civilization in spite of the fact that the rulers were Turkic.

The Persian language & culture isn't entirely alien to the people of the north western & northern regions of the Sub-Continent. In fact the Achaemenid Empire controlled a major portion of modern day Pakistan. During the Islamic golden age, the Persians made a great deal of contributions to all sorts of subjects including mathematics, astronomy, & medicine. Their influence was even present in the Abbasid Caliphate. The Mughals in particular had lots of interaction with the Iranians. Humayun; the second Mughal Emperor along with his wife actually spent time in Iran for a considerable period of time, & that would have contributed to their eventual Persianization.

Persia and the Mughals

The Iranian refuge would prove to be very important for the Mughals. Politically, the shah’s support helped Humayun recapture and re-establish the Mughal presence in India. Culturally, it led to a stronger adoption of Persian artistic traditions and influences. In Iran, Humayun, a lover of books, saw the works of master artists at the shah’s studio in Tabriz. He brought at east two of those artists back with him to India to head his painting studio. Much of the miniature work produced in this period is purely Safavid in style. The themes too are often Persian: the stories of Laila and Majnun from the poet Nizami’s Khamsa were seemingly a particular favorite.

 

[!eon]

What could be the reasons that Mughals have forgotten their native Turkic tongue?

off course Mughals spoke Turkic when they entered subcontinent, letter they adopt Persian.
Babur wrote Tuzk e Babri in Turkic.
At the end of rule they were encouraging Urdu

Why they kept changing languages ? No idea

 

[AUz]

Babur was a direct descendent of Timur from dad side, and his mom's lineage came directly from one of the son of Mongols! The word "Mughal" itself means "Mongol" ...I don't think they were 'ashamed' of their lineage. Infact, they were very proud..specially from Timur's side! Babur thought Delhi as the 'rightful throne' of Timur the great, not others.

But yeah, later Mughals saw themselves as India.

Mughals adapted persianized culture because guess what? Persians protected Mughals. Persians protected Hamayun and Akbar was guided by Persian ruler. Mughals had great debt to Persia for their success.

 

[kalu_miah]

I have heard of this before. Mughals, persian word for Mongols, did have a bad reputation in their native Central Asia, because of the Mongol invasion and atrocities during the invasion. Although Chingisid descendants were the only one that were allowed to be Khan's, until very recently (Kumul Khan, 1930s and Khan of Bukhara 1920s), they themselves considered themselves assimilated Turks of Mongol ancestry. Timur was Gurkani (son-in-law), an Emir, but not a Khan. (These Khan's I think are different than most Khan's in South Asia)

I am not sure if it is Russian propaganda or not (Russians still hate Chingis Khan), but some Kazakh friends I met have told me about siege of Otrar, when we visited the ruins of that place:
THE HISTORY OF ANCIENT OTRAR

So Babur could be proud of Mongol ancestry at the same time not proud about the atrocities caused by Mongol invasion in that area, not sure if that makes sense.

I have interesting info about Persian influence on Mughal Empire, hope Shia's don't get mad with me. Both Babur and his son Humayun were helped by father and son Safavi, Shah Islmail and Tahmasp, both tried to convert them as a condition for their help and Safavi Iranians got access to Hindustan as a result. Babur and Humayun only pretended to convert, so that effort failed, but Shia became numerous in then Hindustan because of this history:
Chapter 4 – Humayun Restored
Facts about Humayun - DAWN.COM

And we have two history experts here in this forum, lets see if they can contribute:
@Wholegrain @ManUNITEDglory

@Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend @al-Hasani the history in the links above may be interesting.

 

[Pakistanisage]

As a Mughal, I feel compelled to defend Babar. Babur was by no means a self hater. In fact , in his autobiography " Tuzuk e Baberi" he talks about how he misses the Architectural beauty of his native Fergana valley, as well as the gardens of his homeland. He was appalled how his captured land (India) was devoid of all that beauty. BTW, the autobiograqphy was originally written in " Turkic Chughtai " language.

Now to address the issue of the " Persianization " of the Mughals and why the court language was Persian ( Farsi ) and not Turkic Chughtai, Persian was the main dominant language of learning in the Area and so the the young Mughals learned Persian. It is similar to why Pakistani youngsters learn English as the dominant "Medium of Education".

 

[manojb]

babur is missile how can it think of its heritage??

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

I am Babur's descendent my family traces it geneology directly to Babur and I must say that in my own readings of Babur I have not seen such sentiments.

what do you mean by that? Have you done any genetic test to confirm this? Do you belong to Hazara ethinic group?