What Babur thought about his heritage

[ManUNITEDglory]

Mughal is the persian word for Mongols. Although in this case they were mixed race.
Modern Uzbeks have from 40-50% Mongoloid DNA.


This was the picture of Babur and Humayun

English: Babur and Humayun Persian style painting, c. 1650

 

[jetti]

I am Babur's descendent my family traces it geneology directly to Babur and I must say that in my own readings of Babur I have not seen such sentiments.

lol.. aal you guys claim that.. the Mughals were wiped out by the british. Are you Punjabi, if so you are not babars descendent. anyway why would you want to associate yourself with a barbarian.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Mongol invasions basically converted islamic world from moderate to extremist. After that the era of great scientific discoveries ended, even thouh muslim empires continued to rule many parts of the world centuries later.

lol.. aal you guys claim that.. the Mughals were wiped out by the british. Are you Punjabi, if so you are not babars descendent. anyway why would you want to associate yourself with a barbarian.

He is not Punjabi i think so he can be mughal since his family moved from India. And barbarian was invented by greeks for germans/noth europeans because they considered them savages. While Mughal were anything but savages.

Not every Pakistani is punjabi! There is alot of diverisity, so one nevers knows. But generally punjabi who claim to be decendent of mughals & arabs is most probably fake.

 

[ManUNITEDglory]

It is more accurate to say they were only about half Mongol-Turkic and half Iranic

Uzbeks from Uzbekistan

Uzbeks from Afghanistan

 

[Wholegrain]

I have heard of this before. Mughals, persian word for Mongols, did have a bad reputation in their native Central Asia, because of the Mongol invasion and atrocities during the invasion. Although Chingisid descendants were the only one that were allowed to be Khan's, until very recently (Kumul Khan, 1930s and Khan of Bukhara 1920s), they themselves considered themselves assimilated Turks of Mongol ancestry. Timur was Gurkani (son-in-law), an Emir, but not a Khan. (These Khan's I think are different than most Khan's in South Asia)

I am not sure if it is Russian propaganda or not (Russians still hate Chingis Khan), but some Kazakh friends I met have told me about siege of Otrar, when we visited the ruins of that place:
THE HISTORY OF ANCIENT OTRAR

So Babur could be proud of Mongol ancestry at the same time not proud about the atrocities caused by Mongol invasion in that area, not sure if that makes sense.

I have interesting info about Persian influence on Mughal Empire, hope Shia's don't get mad with me. Both Babur and his son Humayun were helped by father and son Safavi, Shah Islmail and Tahmasp, both tried to convert them as a condition for their help and Safavi Iranians got access to Hindustan as a result. Babur and Humayun only pretended to convert, so that effort failed, but Shia became numerous in then Hindustan because of this history:
Chapter 4 – Humayun Restored
Facts about Humayun - DAWN.COM

And we have two history experts here in this forum, lets see if they can contribute:
@Wholegrain @ManUNITEDglory

@Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend @al-Hasani the history in the links above may be interesting.

Persian was the lingua franca of the region ever since Abbasid control of central asia and khurasan declined and local Persian dynasties like the Tahirids took power. The Turkic rulers who came later patronized Persian language and it has nothing to do with Shia. The region of Persianate influence in the Islamic world was roughly Iran, Central Asia, China, and the Indian subcontinent. That was where Persian was used as a lingua franca and prestige language.

There are millions of Sunni Tajiks/Farsiwans in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan. They celebrate nowruz, some of them give their children names after people from the Shahnameh, which is a Persian nationalist epic. Its a mistake to tie Persian language and Persian cultural influence with Shia. Many Sunni books on fiqh were written in Persian in the Indian subcontinent. Even today Dari is an official language of Afghanistan and Tajik is official in Tajikistan so why associate it with Shia?

Some examples of Persian language Sunni works can be found here.

Displaying items by tag: fiqh - Maktabah Mujaddidiyah

In China, Persian language influence is all because of Sunnis, not Shia. There are also books on fiqh in China written in both Arabic and Persian. Persian language was called "Muslim language" by the Ming dynasty and it was the language used when issuing edicts relating to Muslims. Both Arabic and Persian were taught in Sunni Madrassas in the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, and China. Some of the Sunni Madrassas still do teach Persian in India and I believe its still taught in China.

The Safavids brought over Arab Shia clerics to help them convert Iran. Arab Shia don't have a Persianate culture, their religious texts are written in Arabic and they don't learn Persian language or compose poems in Persian.

 

[jetti]

Mongol invasions basically converted islamic world from moderate to extremist. After that the era of great scientific discoveries ended, even thouh muslim empires continued to rule many parts of the world centuries later.



He is not Punjabi i think so he can be mughal since his family moved from India. And barbarian was invented by greeks for germans/noth europeans because they considered them savages. While Mughal were anything but savages.

Not every Pakistani is punjabi! There is alot of diverisity, so one nevers knows. But generally punjabi who claim to be decendent of mughals & arabs is most probably fake.

Babar was a savage.. only after Jahangir the Mughal started doing refined things due to all the wealth accumulated

 

[INDIC]

He is not Punjabi i think so he can be mughal since his family moved from India. And barbarian was invented by greeks for germans/noth europeans because they considered them savages. While Mughal were anything but savages.

Babur made a Pyramid of skulls of Bajauri Pashtuns outside the fort of Bajaur.

 

[Indianpatriot1]

Babar was a savage.. only after Jahangir the Mughal started doing refined things due to all the wealth accumulated

Aurangzeb was the epitome of savagery.

 

[!eon]

and even in Pakistani north Punjab almost all of the tribes are non native
and there are many ppl in and around villages of Rawalpindi, who called themselves Mughals.

lol.. aal you guys claim that.. the Mughals were wiped out by the british. Are you Punjabi, if so you are not babars descendent. anyway why would you want to associate yourself with a barbarian.

Mongol invasions basically converted islamic world from moderate to extremist. After that the era of great scientific discoveries ended, even thouh muslim empires continued to rule many parts of the world centuries later.



He is not Punjabi i think so he can be mughal since his family moved from India. And barbarian was invented by greeks for germans/noth europeans because they considered them savages. While Mughal were anything but savages.

Not every Pakistani is punjabi! There is alot of diverisity, so one nevers knows. But generally punjabi who claim to be decendent of mughals & arabs is most probably fake.

 

[eastwatch]

Babur was a direct descendent of Timur from dad side, and his mom's lineage came directly from one of the son of Mongols! The word "Mughal" itself means "Mongol" ...I don't think they were 'ashamed' of their lineage. Infact, they were very proud..specially from Timur's side! Babur thought Delhi as the 'rightful throne' of Timur the great, not others.

But yeah, later Mughals saw themselves as India.

Mughals adapted persianized culture because guess what? Persians protected Mughals. Persians protected Hamayun and Akbar was guided by Persian ruler. Mughals had great debt to Persia for their success.

The reason you have cited is not correct. Persian language and culture were so rich, and its influence was so deep and widespread that it spread across the central Asia. The Court language of all the Kingdoms of these areas became Persian.

Babur and his followers all combinedly brought this tradition with them when they migrated to Kabul and Delhi. Even before their arrival in 1526 in Delhi, the Turkic dynasties since 1190 and the Pathan Bahlul Lodi dynasty since 1451, the Court language was always Persian.

Babur followed this tradition of Persian as his Court language. His dynasty certainly did not import it for imposing in India. In reality, the Mughals maintained Turkic language as their family language. They used to speak in Turkic when among themselves in the Mahal.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Well he was proud of his ancestors since he named his empire after his descendents empire, Genghis Khan!

He didnt name the empire. It was westerners that did.

 

[INDIC]

and even in Pakistani north Punjab almost all of the tribes are non native
and there are many ppl in and around villages of Rawalpindi, who called themselves Mughals.

The Punjabi Muslims were rebellious towards Mughals and it took Akbar 20 years to suppress the revolt of Dulla Bhatti. Dulla Bhatti became the hero of Punjabi Muslims.

Dulla Bhatti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jetti]

Aurangzeb was the epitome of savagery.

agreed.. but you get what I am saying ?

and even in Pakistani north Punjab almost all of the tribes are non native
and there are many ppl in and around villages of Rawalpindi, who called themselves Mughals.

actually . the Pakistanis are .... ok leave it

 

[!eon]

agreed.. but you get what I am saying ?



actually . the Pakistanis are .... ok leave it

actually . the indians are ... ok leave it

 

[Indianpatriot1]

agreed.. but you get what I am saying ?



actually . the Pakistanis are .... ok leave it

I know they are a classic case of Stockholm syndrome.....identifying with the invaders who plundered, raped and converted them. Most of them are converts from Jats and Gujars, castes with low ritual status. But hearing them one would imagine that they are all direct descendants from Timur's family.