Vixen-1000E AESA with IRST showcased at IDEAS

[BHarwana]

you can find info on Vixen 1000E at world wide web dot leonardocompany dot coming website
According to me for our defense purpose we don't need Italian Radar the Chinese Radar will do, to bring down Indian targets but for selling JF 17 to other countries any better avionics will be good.

 

[MastanKhan]

Brigadier General Staff pilot Mohammad Ibrahim Naser M. AlAlawi, Deputy Commander United Arab Emirates Air Force and Air Defence inspecting the cockpit of JF-17 Thunder aircraft at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra on October 30, 2008. [Picture courtesy: Directorate of Media Affair, PAF] He is now a Major General, and Commander of the UAEAF


07 November, 2013 - A 10 member delegation from UAE Defence Forces, led by Brig General Saif Jaber Saif Al-Aleeli visited PAC Kamra. Soon after arrival, the delegation called on Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, Chairman PAC Kamra. The delegation was briefed about the activities and facilities of PAC. All higher officials of PAC attended the briefing. The briefing was followed by a visit to the PAC Factories. The delegation appreciated the facilities which PAC had and expressed their views on future collaborations.
http://www.pac.org.pk/news-archive



Sir what is the point of "Baygani shadi main abdullah dewana"? JF-17 was a Pak-China venture, add 10 other countries, and you have a recipe for failure. It is now maturing and PAC is independently integrating h/w. NOW is the time for us to take it seriously. As a user of cutting edge tech, we have been providing very useful feedback, hopefully Blk3 should be a very good bang for the buck.

As to our R&D, and industrial base - I cannot comment on a public forum.

Best Regards

Hi,

Indeed it was and is a pak china project---no doubt about that---but then there were different options available for UAE to jump in.

It could have opted for a subordinate role to tag along for the ride to look---listen---observe and participate. Just for its presence in the core of this program would have been an eye popping experience.

The second stage was when the aircraft went into production at kamra---a 100 million dollars investment in infra structure and machinery and presence of UAE engineers and techs to tag along for the job was the next stage to gain experience that would change your perception of the world---.

Now your engineers could make it a claim to the Emir---" your honor---look at our achievements---we partnered in building a 4th gen fighter aircraft ". That would have been a proud moment in the history of UAE air force and the nation of UAE.

Now as you had worked shoulder to shoulder---at the same level job as the pakistani engineer and tech---the buildup of the relationship and the marketing slogan would have changed the perception of the pakistani public drastically---.

You are not giving your input and or you don't add your demands in the design----your input is the money---and the eligibility to have some of your people trained and work on the program on assigned jobs following the guidelines of the chinese / pakistani crew.

A UAE wing commander started with this program 10 years ago would be an air vice marshall at this time or close to it---. Now can you imagine 5 of your sqdrn leaders, wing commanders, air commodores attached to that program from 10 years ago would be having a leading role in the decision making of the UAE air force by now---what new dimensions they would bring to the engineering technology manufacturing to the UAE---a partner in manufacturing a 4th gen fighter.

I cannot think of another momentous boastful moment for an arab country to have---other than the making of a nuc weapon.

You have to lose something to gain something---you have to give some to get more---. When I am giving a customer a discount before him asking me---i want to get his guard down---so that I can make it from another venue.

I like the interest of the UAE and those pictures of the dignitories visiting the plant---but I would rather see my brothers ' deep down to elbows---in grease---tightening the nuts and bolts of the JF17 '.

You know if you had had me as an advisor---it would have happened.

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

Indeed it was and is a pak china project---no doubt about that---but then there were different options available for UAE to jump in.

It could have opted for a subordinate role to tag along for the ride to look---listen---observe and participate. Just for its presence in the core of this program would have been an eye popping experience.

The second stage was when the aircraft went into production at kamra---a 100 million dollars investment in infra structure and machinery and presence of UAE engineers and techs to tag along for the job was the next stage to gain experience that would change your perception of the world---.

Now your engineers could make it a claim to the Emir---" your honor---look at our achievements---we partnered in building a 4th gen fighter aircraft ". That would have been a proud moment in the history of UAE air force and the nation of UAE.

Now as you had worked shoulder to shoulder---at the same level job as the pakistani engineer and tech---the buildup of the relationship and the marketing slogan would have changed the perception of the pakistani public drastically---.

You are not giving your input and or you don't add your demands in the design----your input is the money---and the eligibility to have some of your people trained and work on the program on assigned jobs following the guidelines of the chinese / pakistani crew.

A UAE wing commander started with this program 10 years ago would be an air vice marshall at this time or close to it---. Now can you imagine 5 of your sqdrn leaders, wing commanders, air commodores attached to that program from 10 years ago would be having a leading role in the decision making of the UAE air force by now---what new dimensions they would bring to the engineering technology manufacturing to the UAE---a partner in manufacturing a 4th gen fighter.

I cannot think of another momentous boastful moment for an arab country to have---other than the making of a nuc weapon.

You have to lose something to gain something---you have to give some to get more---. When I am giving a customer a discount before him asking me---i want to get his guard down---so that I can make it from another venue.

I like the interest of the UAE and those pictures of the dignitories visiting the plant---but I would rather see my brothers ' deep down to elbows---in grease---tightening the nuts and bolts of the JF17 '.

You know if you had had me as an advisor---it would have happened.

My friend advising is one part. Action taken on advice is a whole different ball game.

 

[Sully3]

i know Qatar is on board

I've herd Saudis are seriously deliberating and want some customs

but if UAE jumps on board this will be some achievement for the jf17 programme.

now its so important for PAF to concentrate all their efforts on the next generation place for the Pakistan and the GCC

 

[MastanKhan]

My friend advising is one part. Action taken on advice is a whole different ball game.

Hi,

Isn't that what it is all about---the perception---the vision---and the most important of all---the implementation of the vision to make it reality---but all of it has to have a starting point.

Once an idea is brought up---it is going to create waves---visionaries would take the lead and the procastinators would find would find reasons not to.

But I seriuosly think---that is the way for UAE air force engineering to head---be a part of the BLK3 and the two seater to start with.

Then the next step is to stick your leg into the building of the chinese subs in pakistan in the next 3 years---.

@Khafee---at this time---there are endless opportunities between UAE and pakistani defense industry to co-ordinate a joint program where some of UAE air and naval engineers and techs to start working with pakistani engineers and techs.

The thing is---that a talk has to start from some place---. If I am talking to 3 commanders---one of them by default would be listening to me 100%. You only need one visionary to take the first step---and indeed that is the most difficult one.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

Isn't that what it is all about---the perception---the vision---and the most important of all---the implementation of the vision to make it reality---but all of it has to have a starting point.

Once an idea is brought up---it is going to create waves---visionaries would take the lead and the procastinators would find would find reasons not to.

But I seriuosly think---that is the way for UAE air force engineering to head---be a part of the BLK3 and the two seater to start with.

Then the next step is to stick your leg into the building of the chinese subs in pakistan in the next 3 years---.

@Khafee---at this time---there are endless opportunities between UAE and pakistani defense industry to co-ordinate a joint program where some of UAE air and naval engineers and techs to start working with pakistani engineers and techs.

The thing is---that a talk has to start from some place---. If I am talking to 3 commanders---one of them by default would be listening to me 100%. You only need one visionary to take the first step---and indeed that is the most difficult one.

Excellent ideas..The same I would say to PAF to participate both in J-31 and TFX programs. J-31 will give them a quick solution but TFX will provide a much deeper insight into the development of the next gen A/C.

 

[princefaisal]

Best thing about Vixen 1000E radar is its swash plate mounting to cover a scan angle up to ±100°. This will increase situation awareness and be used to increase the quality of SAR images. This feature is not available in Chinese KLJ-7A AESA radar.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

isnt the ej-200 physically smaller than the rd-93?

mind you its not only the ej-200 but the m88 too

In terms of JF-17 powerplant, Air Commodore Mahmood told AIN that, “We’re satisfied with the [Russian Klimov] RD-93, but some customers may want another engine. We have done preliminary studies on the [Eurojet] EJ200 and [Snecma] M88. They are doable.”

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2015-06-15/jf-17-thunder-gets-first-export-customer


what would your opinion be what what misile they would be getting and why?

The option for SRAAM will be the unique crossover of availability, technology, price, and facilitation.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Just to give an area where this has already happened, MAA-1A and MAR-1 from brazil. PAF has a history of flying chinese aircraft and missiles with Italian radars btw (all your F-7P and F-7PG fly with Italian radars and Chinese weapons). Granted these are far more rudimentary systems but the fact that if the PAF selects an Italian radar (would prefer Raven-ES05 over Vixen 1000E), then it would become the largest operator of Italian radars in the world. Given that they will likely be upgrading blk 1 and 2 to these standards you are looking at 150 units of the aesa, plus you have all your F-7s and the 37 Rose I mirages flying with grifo m3.

The bigger issue over integration of systems is the prevalence of kickbacks in Pakistan military deals and what the actual specs of the systems on offer are. If the KLJ-7A is in fact a Chinese ELM-2052, then it likely out specs the Vixen 1000E. It was after all designed with IAF F-15s in mind as potential operators. The issue will be if the chinese can deliver an entire EW amd sensor package for JF-17 that can complete with Selex.

Raven is designed for F-16's as it is made by USA.

Is it possible that Vixen can also be integrated with F-16's? If it is then PAF might not just procure this radar for JF-17 but also for F-16's which can not be done with KLJ-7A.

Leave aside what potential this could bring to the PAF.

 

[ghazi768]

@Bilal Khan 777 A general technical question.

Is radar integration essential to an active radar-homing (ARH) missile? The whole point of ARH is to actually provide fire-and-forget capabilities, which is what was lacking in SARH (i.e. when radar integration to the missile was essential).

Shouldn't the goal actually be in ensuring that the ARH missile can function for as long as possible on its own batteries, thus ensuring a bigger engagement bracket (like the Meteor)?

I understand in LOAL the radar could feed location information to the missile via data-link, but is direct missile-to-radar integration necessary for this purpose? Wouldn't one just need a terminal to (1) read what the radar is saying and (2) pass that info to the missile?

Yes, radar integration is essential. I am not an engineer but I think technically it may be possible to have radar and links to be separate but I do not yet know if there exist such a solution, I may be mistaken. ARH missiles use a shielded rear pointing antenna while aircraft have a number of hardware based high power directional links to send commands which are deeply integrated with/in radar. I think the main issue is always to make guidance jam and spoofing proof etc..

The most important question is, will Chinese be ready to share finer details of an AAM which a significant portion of their fleet rely on with a western manufacturer. Or will this give serious heartburns to some in Beijing even if such info gets shared accidentally. On the other hand, if Chinese are not ready to share kinematics data or radio link protocols, will a western manufacturer be ready to allow Chinese to get near their radar systems to provide requisite integration.

Also, All AESAs are not born equal and are greatly dependant on the technology of their TRMs as well as choices of TRM antennas and their density for the amount of gain they can provide. Most older AESAs as well as new russian Zhuk one carry a flat panel antenna mimicking the older slotted array in terms of gain. F-35, Elta series and to some degree Rafale's is touted to have TRM antennas to provide best density and gain. What antenna types and density Chinese AESAs carry, I have absolutely no idea..

Although when it come to the world of procurement, with so much money at stack as well as pre-existing prejudices, anything is possible but for a pointer to possible choice of a radar I'll point you to a couple of promotional videos PAF released earlier. In one of those an officer says that we presently have TWO on TWO but will prefer to have FOUR on FOUR...

On IRST..
Most pilots are basically operators.. but to manufacture a platform and to keep it going further PAF had to learn sort of 'grand parenting' a platform solution. I had opined earlier that FLIR currently is more important than IRST, that was before info on turkish pod was released to the press.
With IRST you can do detection, with a coupled FLIR cum laser solution you can produce a fire control solution provided you have an appropriate missile for this as well which does have required 'extended range'. Currently Rafale is capable of this with MICA. F-35 do look to have incorporated this hardware above nose but AIM-9X ext3 was put on freeze, so no idea what it will be coupled with.
I think that provided PAF gets its way it will try to take more of a IRST cum FLIR route rather than pure IRST route..

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

We have been following it's development from day one, there were a few things we felt were missing. Once they get worked out, an opportunity could very well rise.

EJ-200 , AESA, IRST, retractable IFR, would really make it quite formidable.

Sir,
Previously PAF was interested in Raytheon EW systems designed for UAE F-16's for JF-17. Unfortunately they were denied. What do you think will it be possible today if one of the GCC states purchased them for JF-17s?.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

My friend imagination of such nature has a cost. The cost must be right to make it worth while. That is where the Chinese will be hard to beat.
However if the Italians can match the price or win on capability or offer more in the form of local manufacturing then the sky is the limit. In any case if the order from one of the Gulf countries comes in it may well be associated with a weztern sourced and laden JFT probably only for export though.
A

Sir,
What PAF and PAC is trying to achieve is exports of JF-17's to different target oriented customers. PAF is happy with what it has today in the for of JF-17 block 2. Still it can upgrade it accordingly keeping the current suppliers. Some other customers would also find it appropriate i.e Iran, Myanmar and Tajikistan.

However this might not be an ideal solution for others hence to capture their markets out of the box approach is required. If KSA selects JF-17 then to keep maintenance low they would select probably EJ-200 engine and other British systems and subsystem to keep it in line with the EFT and Tornadoes.

If UAE, Qatar, Iraq, Tunisia selects then JF-17 then they might go for Friench solutions, as those would be the most cost effective ones.

This kind of approach would indicate that PAF would not fly these aircraft more than the minimum required till the delivery. It is also clear that PAF would try to secure larger numbers because then it would provide TOT or license production rights to keep these aircraft completely separate form the domestic productions.

 

[Tank131]

Raven is designed for F-16's as it is made by USA.

Is it possible that Vixen can also be integrated with F-16's? If it is then PAF might not just procure this radar for JF-17 but also for F-16's which can not be done with KLJ-7A.

Leave aside what potential this could bring to the PAF.

Raven ES05 is Made By Selex UK and is developed from Vixen 1000E and was made for Gripen, not F-16. PAF cant modify F-16 without US permission which it wont get. If it did, Sabr would be the logical choice not vixen/raven.

 

[maximuswarrior]

Raven ES05 is Made By Selex UK and is developed from Vixen 1000E and was made for Gripen, not F-16. PAF cant modify F-16 without US permission which it wont get. If it did, Sabr would be the logical choice not vixen/raven.

Pakistan also wasn't allowed to modify the F-16 to drop nuke bombs. We know how that ended up. Nothing can be ruled out because not all F-16s are obliged to stringent usage constraints.

 

[Bratva]

Pakistan also wasn't allowed to modify the F-16 to drop nuke bombs. We know how that ended up. Nothing can be ruled out because not all F-16s are obliged to stringent usage constraints.

That was before the ERA of stringent digital and encrypted locks on sensitive equipment of F-16. Now if you try to modify equipment, the encryption on devices will render it inoperable and alerting USA as well that someone is trying to modify their hardware illegally