Vixen-1000E AESA with IRST showcased at IDEAS

[The SC]

Hi,

Thank you for your post---maybe---a little more about the tranceiver modules---are the chinese matching the technology or still 5 years behind in the T/R module!

In the presentation video, the Manager has clearly stated that the KLJ-7A has comparable technologies with those of the F-35 AESA radar.. So he is clearly hinting that the Chinese have matched the Western tech..

 

[MastanKhan]

In the presentation video, the Manager has clearly stated that the KLJ-7A has comparable technologies with those of the F-35 AESA radar.. So he is clearly hinting that the Chinese have matched the Western tech..

Hi,

They also stated many a years ago that the J10 was matching the F16 BLk52 in every move other than the EW suite---but the Paf did not go for it.

Then the pod---they went for the turkish pod than the chinese---so my question is what is amiss over here.

@Khafee And the pakistani kids had opened up threads that the J10 does not bring anything new to the able.

Now they want to worship the chinese aesa as if it is goddess.

 

[ZedZeeshan]

Hi,

They also stated many a years ago that the J10 was matching the F16 BLk52 in every move other than the EW suite---but the Paf did not go for it.

Then the pod---they went for the turkish pod than the chinese---so my question is what is amiss over here.

@Khafee And the pakistani kids had opened up threads that the J10 does not bring anything new to the able.

Now they want to worship the chinese aesa as if it is goddess.

Mr Mastan I really dont understand what new PAF wanted in J10. It is certainly equal to block 52 and would have easily replaced F7.

 

[The SC]

Hi,

They also stated many a years ago that the J10 was matching the F16 BLk52 in every move other than the EW suite---but the Paf did not go for it.

Then the pod---they went for the turkish pod than the chinese---so my question is what is amiss over here.

And the pakistani kids had opened up threads that the J10 does not bring anything new to the able.

Yes true, but then it was the J-10A!..B and C are much better.. Pakistan knew then that it was still in development phase.. now they have either the B or C at their disposal (40 some of them) which fact gave Pakistan some leverage in refusing to pay the full price of the F-16Blk 52 that were due (18 of them) to be procured with some aid program from the US who was somehow indebted to Pakistan for its help in Afghanistan, but the US has apparently forgot (all of a sudden!)..
The Turkish pod is based on western technology and came probably with a very low friendly price, since Turkey too want to get a market in high tech related to weapons, Pakistan play the role of a motivator for Turkish exports as well as the Chinese ones, so for a better price and equivalent tech no one can blame Pakistan for going for the lowest price.. The same will happen with the KLJ-7A; for the same or equivalent tech with the best western systems, the price will play a big role.. as the one dominant P of the 4 base Ps of Marketing..

 

[MastanKhan]

Mr Mastan I really dont understand what new PAF wanted in J10. It is certainly equal to block 52 and would have easily replaced F7.

Hi,

Exactly---it could have filled up the hole left by the lack of the F16's a long time ago and as I had stated a longtime ago---with the coming aesa---the J10 would be placed between the BLK 52 and the bLk 60.

Now that the chinese aesa is out---all the pakistani kids are doing cartwheels over it----
.

If the JF17 aesa has a 1000 T/R modules---the J10 could possibly have around 1200-1250 modules---a more powerful unit.

Paf created bad blood between itself---pakistan and the U S for no reason at all---. Only if they had understood the american situation better---they would never had asked for anymore F16's but gone for the J10's.

Yes true, but then it was the J-10A!..B and C are much better.. Pakistan knew then that it was still in development phase.. now they have either the B or C at their disposal (40 some of them) which fact gave Pakistan some leverage in refusing to pay the full price of the F-16Blk 52 that were due (18 of them) to be procured with some aid program from the US who was somehow indebted to Pakistan for its help in Afghanistan, but the US has apparently forgot (all of a sudden!)..
The Turkish pod is based on western technology and came probably with a very low friendly price, since Turkey too want to get a market in high tech related to weapons, Pakistan play the role of a motivator for Turkish exports as well as the Chinese ones, so for a better price and equivalent tech no one can blame Pakistan for going for the lowest price.. The same will happen with the KLJ-7A; for the same or equivalent tech with the best western systems, the price will play a big role.. as the one dominant P of the 4 base Ps of Marketing..

Hi,

It was not the A---we are talking about a B or a C---. And it was not in development phase---over 350 were deployed by then---.

 

[Tempest II]

Hi,

They also stated many a years ago that the J10 was matching the F16 BLk52 in every move other than the EW suite---but the Paf did not go for it.

I think they already have a lot of experience with 16s, spares, support equipment, technical know-how, etc. Going for the J10 would have largely meant starting from very little.

Also F-16 tactics already developed

 

[MastanKhan]

I think they already have a lot of experience with 16s, spares, support equipment, technical know-how, etc. Going for the J10 would have largely meant starting from very little.

Also F-16 tactics already developed

Hi,

You have a garrison to protect and you have only 50 AK47's and 100 troops---the other 50 troops have bolt action rifles----the enemy that is coming has 200 soldiers---each equipped with AK47's---.

But there is a supply of 50 G3's packed in crates in the village next door that you can get within 15 minutes time period.

Is there anyone here in that position who would refuse to avail the opportunity of getting the 50 extra automatic rifles?

 

[The SC]

Hi,

Exactly---it could have filled up the hole left by the lack of the F16's a long time ago and as I had stated a longtime ago---with the coming aesa---the J10 would be placed between the BLK 52 and the bLk 60.

Now that the chinese aesa is out---all the pakistani kids are doing cartwheels over it----
.

If the JF17 aesa has a 1000 T/R modules---the J10 could possibly have around 1200-1250 modules---a more powerful unit.

Paf created bad blood between itself---pakistan and the U S for no reason at all---. Only if they had understood the american situation better---they would never had asked for anymore F16's but gone for the J10's.



Hi,

It was not the A---we are talking about a B or a C---. And it was not in development phase---over 350 were deployed by then---.

If my memory is still good, it was the A or B at its beginning.. Pakistan wanted to get the F-16Blk 52 for obvious reasons we know, skipping all the hassle with a new platform and getting a force multiplier it was most familiar with.. add the price to it (with the aid package of course).. So it had nothing against the J-10 per se.. These circumstances do not exist in the case of the Vixen 1000-E vs the KLJ-7A, if there is any other advantage it goes to the latter, since Pakistan already operates its mechanical version and was quite satisfied with it, let alone when it became AESA with high tech opening the doors to other high end weapons..

 

[Tank131]

Hi,

They also stated many a years ago that the J10 was matching the F16 BLk52 in every move other than the EW suite---but the Paf did not go for it.

Then the pod---they went for the turkish pod than the chinese---so my question is what is amiss over here.

@Khafee And the pakistani kids had opened up threads that the J10 does not bring anything new to the able.

Now they want to worship the chinese aesa as if it is goddess.

Mastan bhai,
I think there is a difference between saying the j10 doesnt add much in the way of capabilities and that j10 is not a good fighter. I think most agree its a good fighter but the question was did its induction justify a cost needed to induct a new type. The reality is its performance is between F-16 and JF-17. With the need pay for a new logistical setup and training /induction costs associated with a new fighter it was too expensive to justify when compared to the capabilities. Getting more JF-17 would be cheaper and give 90% of the capability.

That os very different from the issue of Chinese vs Italian AESA, especially if the rumors of the KLJ-7A actually being a copy of the ELM-2052 are true (which from initial pics, raise the possibility of this being true as it very much looks similar to ELM-2052). The issue will not necessarily be which radaris better or cheaper, but which package is (radar + isrt + ecm/eccm/ew suits ect). Lilely the European systems will be superior as they have more experience in this field, bit it will be interesting to see whether or not the difference on capability justifies the cost. By guess is no... Unless kickbacks play a role.

 

[MastanKhan]

If my memory is still good, it was the A or B at its beginning.. Pakistan wanted to get the F-16Blk 52 for obvious reasons we know, skipping all the hassle with a new platform and getting a force multiplier it was most familiar with.. add the price to it (with the aid package of course).. So it had nothing against the J-10 per se.. These circumstances do not exist in the case of the Vixen 1000-E vs the KLJ-7A, if there is any other advantage it goes to the latter, since Pakistan already operates its mechanical version and was quite satisfied with it, let alone when it became AESA with high tech opening the doors to other high end weapons..

Hi,

J10 B - C were on offer last year february---18 of them for immediate delivery from existing stock.

Mastan bhai,
I think there is a difference between saying the j10 doesnt add much in the way of capabilities and that j10 is not a good fighter. I think most agree its a good fighter but the question was did its induction justify a cost needed to induct a new type. The reality is its performance is between F-16 and JF-17. With the need pay for a new logistical setup and training /induction costs associated with a new fighter it was too expensive to justify when compared to the capabilities. Getting more JF-17 would be cheaper and give 90% of the capability.

That os very different from the issue of Chinese vs Italian AESA, especially if the rumors of the KLJ-7A actually being a copy of the ELM-2052 are true (which from initial pics, raise the possibility of this being true as it very much looks similar to ELM-2052). The issue will not necessarily be which radaris better or cheaper, but which package is (radar + isrt + ecm/eccm/ew suits ect). Lilely the European systems will be superior as they have more experience in this field, bit it will be interesting to see whether or not the difference on capability justifies the cost. By guess is no... Unless kickbacks play a role.

Hi,

The real issue is 190 obsolete aircraft in the inventory. The real issue is the lack pf purchase of the right aircraft in a timely manner---.

We are facing a massive enemy---who has declared war on us multiple times in the last 14 years and has beaten us every single time---and every time we cower down because we have a weak air force.

 

[Tiger Awan]

Hi,

You have a garrison to protect and you have only 50 AK47's and 100 troops---the other 50 troops have bolt action rifles----the enemy that is coming has 200 soldiers---each equipped with AK47's---.

But there is a supply of 50 G3's packed in crates in the village next door that you can get within 15 minutes time period.

Is there anyone here in that position who would refuse to avail the opportunity of getting the 50 extra automatic rifles?

Sir I think JF-17 is more than a bolt action rifle. Its like choosing between 10 HK 417 and 100 G3. I guess we will go for arming each and every person we can

 

[araz]

If my memory is still good, it was the A or B at its beginning.. Pakistan wanted to get the F-16Blk 52 for obvious reasons we know, skipping all the hassle with a new platform and getting a force multiplier it was most familiar with.. add the price to it (with the aid package of course).. So it had nothing against the J-10 per se.. These circumstances do not exist in the case of the Vixen 1000-E vs the KLJ-7A, if there is any other advantage it goes to the latter, since Pakistan already operates its mechanical version and was quite satisfied with it, let alone when it became AESA with high tech opening the doors to other high end weapons..

To add to your post the ancillary services needed to setup a fighter are what kill the services. The more the types the higher the number of spares and the more the hassle involved. So the easiest way out was more 16s.
There are other problems as well including WMD7 series PODs being incapable to giving a picture as the newer tech on the 16s. There maybe other systems which I am told are there but myself do not know about. The Chinese would not have been very happy for us to get foreign providers to induct their hardware on their bird as it gives them access to it. The last issue is one of engines as the Russians were unhappy for the eng8ne to be sold to PAF. BY THE TIME THEY AGREED things have moved on.
However the decision was a purely economic one and on the basis of cost vs benefit it did not justify the induction.
A

 

[Tempest II]

To add to your post the ancillary services needed to setup a fighter are what kill the services. The more the types the higher the number of spares and the more the hassle involved. So the easiest way out was more 16s.
There are other problems as well including WMD7 series PODs being incapable to giving a picture as the newer tech on the 16s. There maybe other systems which I am told are there but myself do not know about. The Chinese would not have been very happy for us to get foreign providers to induct their hardware on their bird as it gives them access to it. The last issue is one of engines as the Russians were unhappy for the eng8ne to be sold to PAF. BY THE TIME THEY AGREED things have moved on.
However the decision was a purely economic one and on the basis of cost vs benefit it did not justify the induction.
A

Not sure if that is your point up there, but Aselsan pods will be compatible with both F-16s and JF-17s. That would be another reason to go for them vs the WMD-7. Sorry if I have just re-worded your statement.

 

[Tank131]

Hi,

J10 B - C were on offer last year february---18 of them for immediate delivery from existing stock.



Hi,

The real issue is 190 obsolete aircraft in the inventory. The real issue is the lack pf purchase of the right aircraft in a timely manner---.

We are facing a massive enemy---who has declared war on us multiple times in the last 14 years and has beaten us every single time---and every time we cower down because we have a weak air force.

Oh i agree that PAF has issues with respect to what i will call qualitative quantity (in other words quality in reasonable numbers), but i disagree that J-10 (especially in the numbers that were discussed at the time, ~40) would have been cost effective or reasonable. You arent going to induct 100+ J-10 so its better to increase the number of JF-17 which ses to be the case. Had the decision been made not to get more F-16 back in 2002/2003 then yes, J-10 would have made more sense, but you more than doubled your stpck of F-16, so now you have committed down a road, its too late tp make a u-turn.

The part i know you and I agree is the lack of imagination in PAF acquisitions (not a single atrike fighter of worth). Rather than J-10s it would have be better to acquire a heavy deep strike capable aircraft like JH-7B if Su-35 is not available (in moderate numbers...again ~40). That frees up F-16 and JF-17 to provide air cover which is there area of strength). More than this though, i would have loved to see the induction of an regiment or even a squadron of H-6K for the deployment of an air launched Babur or CM-400AKG. A single H-6K can carry 6 babur or 12 CM-400AKG. A squadron of them would overwhelm an IAF FOB from over 1000km away (safely out of the reach of IAF fighters and SAMs AND and 1 or 2 would ovewhelm any IN CBG in the Indian Ocean from 300km away (again, out of reach from IN fighters and SAMs using supersonic missiles.

 

[MastanKhan]

Oh i agree that PAF has issues with respect to what i will call qualitative quantity (in other words quality in reasonable numbers), but i disagree that J-10 (especially in the numbers that were discussed at the time, ~40) would have been cost effective or reasonable. You arent going to induct 100+ J-10 so its better to increase the number of JF-17 which ses to be the case. Had the decision been made not to get more F-16 back in 2002/2003 then yes, J-10 would have made more sense, but you more than doubled your stpck of F-16, so now you have committed down a road, its too late tp make a u-turn.

The part i know you and I agree is the lack of imagination in PAF acquisitions (not a single atrike fighter of worth). Rather than J-10s it would have be better to acquire a heavy deep strike capable aircraft like JH-7B if Su-35 is not available (in moderate numbers...again ~40). That frees up F-16 and JF-17 to provide air cover which is there area of strength). More than this though, i would have loved to see the induction of an regiment or even a squadron of H-6K for the deployment of an air launched Babur or CM-400AKG. A single H-6K can carry 6 babur or 12 CM-400AKG. A squadron of them would overwhelm an IAF FOB from over 1000km away (safely out of the reach of IAF fighters and SAMs AND and 1 or 2 would ovewhelm any IN CBG in the Indian Ocean from 300km away (again, out of reach from IN fighters and SAMs using supersonic missiles.

Hi,

Thank you for the post--. I agree with your cooments that you wrote about this issue a few days ago.

As usual Paf has been stung on the ar-se---Gwadar becomes operational---and it is woefully ill equipped tpo styrike back.

The enemy sub 40 nautical miles and surfacing WA AN ABSOLUTE CHALLENGE TO PAK MILITARY.

Just look at the DARE that the indian miltary threw at pak military---they saying---we surfaced in your backyard---and you could not do anything to us.

I agree with you and I have mentioned many a times that I would rather see a JH7B than another aircraft---but as the Paf does not like twin engine strike aircraft---for that reason---I mentioned the J10 again.

But in practicality---Paf has to induct another aircraft on a fastrak----and J10 is still the aircraft---.

Just because we have not had an all out war in the last 14 years---does not mean it may not happen---.

Things change with the blink of an eye---. For that---Paf is not ready---even it has been given all the time.

Sir I think JF-17 is more than a bolt action rifle. Its like choosing between 10 HK 417 and 100 G3. I guess we will go for arming each and every person we can

Hi,

Please don't let me challenge you intellect---. The issue in discussion is not the JF17 being like a bolt action---the issue is the 190 obsolete aircraft ---. The issue is the lack of numbers after given all the time to procure them.