Vixen-1000E AESA with IRST showcased at IDEAS

[Naif al Hilali]

That is just fiction. The only thing that is actually monitored are the EW systems and TGP which have a failsafe to not allow tampering from anyone other than authorised personell. The aircraft themselves cannot be done diddly squat to; sadly this is an uneducated myth propagated.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Thank you for the clarification.

I should copy-and-paste this everywhere also.

Could you clarify on the myth of the PAF F-16C/Ds being limited from flying / targeting deep inside India, or the Saudi F-15s being limited against Israel.

Thank you

Hifz u kum Allah

 

[SQ8]

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Thank you for the clarification.

I should copy-and-paste this everywhere also.

Could you clarify on the myth of the PAF F-16C/Ds being limited from flying / targeting deep inside India, or the Saudi F-15s being limited against Israel.

Thank you

Hifz u kum Allah

Nothing of the sort. The limitations is NOT within hardware, it is the usual sort of myth the likes of which are propogated by either the uneducated , ignorant or downright mischevious folk. The same sort of myth making that plagued the New chief on his beliefs, the same sort of myth making that plagues all activities of US aid.

The F-16s are under strict monitoring via a secure entry and access system for the base. Essentially, the requirement is simple: NO CHINESE NEAR THE AIRCRAFT! The Block-52s Pakistan has are actually pretty sophisticated and come with equipment whose capabilities are not completely stated on the DSCA. Hence, it is important to ensure that previous Chinese access to US equipment is not allowed to be repeated.

Nothing stops us from flying the aircraft loaded with 1000 lb JDAMs right into IAF AHQ if we want to try.

The same goes for Saudi F-15s.

The actual issue lies with engaging NATO forces in the sense that they may already know compromising features such as Radar frequency patterns and the lot so that will be more effective than say Russian equipment in neutralising it.


The real locks are the pilots and commanders themselves; the Saudis will NEVER attack Israel. Their leadership will never even go close to that possibility for a closet ally.

As for India, lets just say Uncle sam knows how to keep a slight balance with the twins of the subcontinent; we have the F-16s because they want to let us have them.

 

[Shoaib Aziz]

@Oscar @Naif al Hilali

Salam I have a question though off topic here. Can an IR guided AAM be guided beyond it off bore angle with an HMD/S. For example if AIM-9M's cone is 35 degrees, can JHMCS guide it to a target say at 75 degrees? All this before launch.

Also what version of AIM-9M is Pakistan operating and what's its maximum off bore angle.

 

[Tank131]

Neither with the click of keyboard nor they can be sabotaged. Only thing that could occur USA will stop providing encryption keys to activate IFF, Certain modes of Radar, Link-16 Hardware, Sniper/AIDEWS Pods . Thats it. So F-16 will still be able to fly fire all its armament but would be blind for most of the time.

The notion that the US cannot hack into the F-16 os so patently false that i dont understand why you guys keep propagating it. In 90s and 2000s US was hacking Israeli UAVs and in 2008 US was able to hack into am Israeli F-16 and was able to collect video from the cockpit. This was done under project Anarchist. It is a very short hop from hacking in to do surveillance of system to then be able to completly disable it. https://www.google.com/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35440523?client=ms-android-verizon

Now im not sure US would actually go through with it if Pakistan amd india are at war (too much defense $ riding on it around the world to come off as forceably making its weapons useless if it is technically hedging towards one side or other) but we could.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

@Oscar @Naif al Hilali

Salam I have a question though off topic here. Can an IR guided AAM be guided beyond it off bore angle with an HMD/S. For example if AIM-9M's cone is 35 degrees, can JHMCS guide it to a target say at 75 degrees? All this before launch.

Also what version of AIM-9M is Pakistan operating and what's its maximum off bore angle.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

@Oscar 's field here.

My own understanding was that Lock On After Launch (LOAL) capability was also required such as the AIM-9X Block II has but not the AIM-9M (even for the before-launch case you mentioned).

"Testing work on the AIM-9X Block II version began in September 2008.[24] The Block II adds Lock-on After Launch capability with a datalink, so the missile can be launched first and then directed to its target afterwards by an aircraft with the proper equipment for 360 degree engagements, such as the F-35 and F-22.[25]"

Thanks for the question.

Hifz u kum Allah

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar @Naif al Hilali

Salam I have a question though off topic here. Can an IR guided AAM be guided beyond it off bore angle with an HMD/S. For example if AIM-9M's cone is 35 degrees, can JHMCS guide it to a target say at 75 degrees? All this before launch.

Also what version of AIM-9M is Pakistan operating and what's its maximum off bore angle.

Pakistan operates the AIM-9M-8/9
More on it here:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-9.html
They have further improved IRCM detection circuitry, and the latest versions of the rocket motor (MK 36 MOD 11), guidance section (WGU-4E/B), and AOTD (DSU-15B/B).

The 9M is not capable of being cued beyond 35 degrees.

 

[Shoaib Aziz]

Pakistan operates the AIM-9M-8/9
More on it here:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-9.html
They have further improved IRCM detection circuitry, and the latest versions of the rocket motor (MK 36 MOD 11), guidance section (WGU-4E/B), and AOTD (DSU-15B/B).

The 9M is not capable of being cued beyond 35 degrees.

Given R-73 had an off bore angle of 45 in early 70s, aren't we way behind operating this and PL-5 with off bore angle of 25 degrees.

BTW my question was about guiding the missile by visually acquiring target through JHMCS and guiding the missile towards it until its own search and track sensor starts working, more like a lock on after launch. Is that possible with JHMCS or it requires additional equipment? What kind of equipment that should be? I have seen a video of EF Typhoon guiding a missile behind the AC.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

The notion that the US cannot hack into the F-16 os so patently false that i dont understand why you guys keep propagating it. In 90s and 2000s US was hacking Israeli UAVs and in 2008 US was able to hack into am Israeli F-16 and was able to collect video from the cockpit. This was done under project Anarchist. It is a very short hop from hacking in to do surveillance of system to then be able to completly disable it.

Now im not sure US would actually go through with it if Pakistan amd india are at war (too much defense $ riding on it around the world to come off as forceably making its weapons useless if it is technically hedging towards one side or other) but we could.

What kind of hacking are you referring to for IAF F16s? Were the F16s on ground or air when hacked? Tapping into the wireless communication of a comparatively newer field of systems, such as UAV, with the closed circuit control and management systems of a mature fighter aircraft is wrong. I wouldn't classify your referred incidence as hacking of UAV, but as application of cryptanalysis i.e. the processes or ability of decoding encoded/encrypted data streams in a medium -- which is nothing new and has been in use even before World war 2.

Regards

 

[Naif al Hilali]

BTW my question was about guiding the missile by visually acquiring target through JHMCS and guiding the missile towards it until its own search and track sensor starts working, more like a lock on after launch. Is that possible with JHMCS or it requires additional equipment? What kind of equipment that should be? I have seen a video of EF Typhoon guiding a missile behind the AC.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

"Testing work on the AIM-9X Block II version began in September 2008. The Block II adds Lock-on After Launch capability with a datalink, so the missile can be launched first and then directed to its target afterwards by an aircraft with the proper equipment for 360 degree engagements, such as the F-35 and F-22."

Hifz u kum Allah

plus the required software and electronics on the missile to process the data and implement the appropriate course guidance and maneuvering. That is why only the AIM-9X Block II has the capability you mentioned, not the original Block.

 

[Shoaib Aziz]

plus the required software and electronics on the missile to process the data and implement the appropriate course guidance and maneuvering. That is why only the AIM-9X Block II has the capability you mentioned, not the original Block.

A missile can be guided within its off bore angle even without an HMD/S system. For example, PL-5EII could be fired on a target if its within the 25 degrees search cone of its sensor, similar for other missiles also, even without an HMD/S. I don't understand any benefit of HMD/S in dogfights if it can't cue a missile towards the location of a target visually acquired, well apart from it being a convenient display.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

A missile can be guided within its off bore angle even without an HMD/S system. For example, PL-5EII could be fired on a target if its within the 25 degrees search cone of its sensor, similar for other missiles also, even without an HMD/S. I don't understand any benefit of HMD/S in dogfights if it can't cue a missile towards the location of a target visually acquired, well apart from it being a convenient display.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Brother, you will get us both thrown out of this thread.

Helmet-Mounted-Displays/Sights let you:

1. keep your head up during combat and increase situational awareness by displaying information such as thermal imagery, maps, and other data not projected on the Head-Up-Display which might not be in your line-of-sight anyway when you are looking to the side,

2. can cue ground attack weapons as well,

3. reduce time required to pickle (select) and launch a weapon.

Sorry to the mods for straying.

Hifz u kum Allah

 

[Shoaib Aziz]

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Brother, you will get us both thrown out of this thread.

Helmet-Mounted-Displays/Sights let you:

1. keep your head up during combat and increase situational awareness by displaying information such as thermal imagery, maps, and other data not projected on the Head-Up-Display which might not be in your line-of-sight anyway when you are looking to the side,

2. can cue ground attack weapons as well,

3. reduce time required to pickle (select) and launch a weapon.

Sorry to the mods for straying.

Hifz u kum Allah

Sorry for all that, I understand other functions, here i was just referring to its roll in dogfight specifically. Anyway, end of discussion. Thank you for replies.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

Sorry for all that, I understand other functions, here i was just referring to its roll in dogfight specifically. Anyway, end of discussion. Thank you for replies.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Thank you and sorry for ending the discussion. Please note points 1 and 3 above, and apply them to air-combat scenarios as well (both Beyond-Visual-Range and Dogfighting).

Coupling a Helmet-Mounted-Display/Sight with Active-Electronically-Scanned-Array Radar, Infra-Red-Search-&-Track or Forward-Looking-Infra-Red, and Missile-Approach-Warning-System pays dividends in all cases - remember you get shot down by the enemy you don't see and being able to look out and have some of your sensor readings available is extremely helpful.

Also, PAF wanted the AIM-9X but it was not released. It is still important to train with the JHMCS for the above reasons plus possible future acquisitions of AIM-9X / ASRAAM / IRIS-T or the like.

Anyway, the mods should be happy with the mention of AESA and IRST above.

Thank you for your really insightful questions.

Hifz u kum Allah

 

[MastanKhan]

What kind of hacking are you referring to for IAF F16s? Were the F16s on ground or air when hacked? Tapping into the wireless communication of a comparatively newer field of systems, such as UAV, with the closed circuit control and management systems of a mature fighter aircraft is wrong. I wouldn't classify your referred incidence as hacking of UAV, but as application of cryptanalysis i.e. the processes or ability of decoding encoded/encrypted data streams in a medium -- which is nothing new and has been in use even before World war 2.

Regards

Hi,

Both the F16 and the drone were in air when 'hacked'.

 

[Tank131]

What kind of hacking are you referring to for IAF F16s? Were the F16s on ground or air when hacked? Tapping into the wireless communication of a comparatively newer field of systems, such as UAV, with the closed circuit control and management systems of a mature fighter aircraft is wrong. I wouldn't classify your referred incidence as hacking of UAV, but as application of cryptanalysis i.e. the processes or ability of decoding encoded/encrypted data streams in a medium -- which is nothing new and has been in use even before World war 2.

Regards

When a system is in air and a foreing power is viewing video stream that the operator is viewing and even observing the airstrike as the while in progress you call it hacking into a system. The exact same way if a person is observing whatever you are doing on your personal computer has hacked you. You cam call it whatever you want, but in the end they have your data and access to all your systems and can damage your systems with a few key strokes.