US Frigates Approved For Transfer – not to Pakistan

[Penguin]

well i know that our navy is in need of some quick inductions , we do have option but i guess there are some Corruption in Navy , who lobby to go for this OHP junks rather than building up our f-22p's .

OHP is old but not junk. They were intended as stop-gap untill arrival of new ships. They were never intended in place of new ships. It is imperative new ships start coming forth, with or without stopgap.

The Italians have a bunch of Meastrale class ships decommissioned. 2 were offered to Phillippines in 2012. Good ships, from the early 1980s, but not modernized much... .

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

A fleet replenishment ship, IIRC

This was done in 2012 with no limit to how many Pakistan can make. There were supposed to be some new contracts regarding Attack crafts and TF2000 type or may be some old ones.

The Italians have a bunch of Meastrale class ships decommissioned. 2 were offered to Phillippines in 2012. Good ships, from the early 1980s, but not modernized much... .

Any idea how much would they cost with all upgrades?

@Penguin
Tribune International (Australia) | Pakistan Naval Chief meets Turkish Defence Leadership

 

[Penguin]

From that areticle:

The visiting Pakistani dignitary during his meeting with the Minister for National Defence Mr. İsmet Yılmaz discussed matters regarding ongoing defence projects and ways to further boost defence ties. Mr. İsmet Yılmaz reassured to share Turkish defence sector experience with Pakistan.

During his meeting with Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir, Undersecretary for the Turkish Defense Industries, various proposals for joint production were discussed. Progress on the construction of Logistics Support Ship for Pakistan Navy being built by STM of Turkey at Karachi Shipyard was reviewed in the meeting and prospects of further projects also came under discussion.

I would think the logistics ship, the MRTP-33 and perhaps either a) involment in an F22P version and/or b) a Milgem version. But that is just speculation.

Manila to pay $400 million for two Italian frigates

Manila to pay $400 million for two Italian frigates | Defense Update:

Philippine Navy Acquired 2 Warships from Italy Maestrale Class Frigate & US Hamilton Class Cutter, Video - Firstpost

 

[Neptune]

When will the LST of PN get commissioned?

 

[monitor]

Chinese can't print dollars, they have to earn them by working very very hard for the USA.

Thus they can't give out dollars as AID.

Please educate yourself on monitory issues.

Thank you.

AID can be other from too i think selling with favorable discount and long term loan for purchasing Chinese Hardware .

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I would think the logistics ship, the MRTP-33 and perhaps either a) involment in an F22P version and/or b) a Milgem version. But that is just speculation.

MRTP-33 are operational with PN so it might be a good idea to add more.

Meastrale class does offer more then the US cutters Pakistan is going to receive but here the argument can only be in case of old vs. new.

On the other Meastrale class vs Milgem
According to the local newspaperHürriyet, the cost of the lead ship TCG Heybeliada (F-511) was around US$260 million.(Türkiye’nin ürettiği ilk savaş gemisi ‘Heybeliada’ seyirde - Hürriyet Gündem In Turkish)

This would be a better deal as this is going to be stealth rather than the 80's one.

So lets see what comes out in the future.

There was also the possibility to enhance the ship building capability with South Korea, things are also progressing from EAST.

 

[FaujHistorian]

AID can be other from too i think selling with favorable discount and long term loan for purchasing Chinese Hardware .

Please do not confuse aid with loan.

One you don't have to return monetarily.

The other you have too.


HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE diff.

 

[Penguin]

MRTP-33 are operational with PN so it might be a good idea to add more.

Meastrale class does offer more then the US cutters Pakistan is going to receive but here the argument can only be in case of old vs. new.

On the other Meastrale class vs Milgem
According to the local newspaperHürriyet, the cost of the lead ship TCG Heybeliada (F-511) was around US$260 million.(Türkiye’nin ürettiği ilk savaş gemisi ‘Heybeliada’ seyirde - Hürriyet Gündem In Turkish)

This would be a better deal as this is going to be stealth rather than the 80's one.

So lets see what comes out in the future.

There was also the possibility to enhance the ship building capability with South Korea, things are also progressing from EAST.

I do hope you are not comparing 123m 3,200 ton Meastrale class frigates and 43 meter 215 ton GRC43M Cutters, as they are toally different types of ships with entirely different functions and capabilities.

US$130 million each for used ships, (the Italians wanted $270 million for the refurbished vessels). As it seems, Manila later added $130 to get brand new vessels of the same type, for about $400 million. (but that seems rather odd to me: essentially getting a new 1980s ship in 2015)

On February 23, 2012, the government’s Philippine News Agency (PNA) quoted Fernando Manalo, Defense Undersecretary for Finance, as saying that “acquiring second-hand ships will ultimately be costlier than buying new ships.” Therefore, he said, the Italian ships were no longer being considered for possible acquisition by the Philippines.On April 30, Manalo disclosed that Defense was allocating P18 billion, not P12 billion, for the purchase of two warships, explaining the P6 billion increase was due to the fact that the ships were new, not refurbished ones

.
Why did Aquino stop purchase of warships?

Ada class / Milgem is smaller but not necessarily a poorer choice.

PN has in the past (2008) shown interest in acquiring four Ada class corvettes over a 10-year program, of which three to be manufactured in local shipyards. But I could also see Turkish involvement in an F22P mod.

09/12/2014
STM at the International Defence Exhibition IDEAS 2014

STM has taken part in the IDEAS-14 (International Defence and Aerospace Exhibition) between 01-04 December 2014, and presented the Pakistan Navy Fleet Tanker and MILGEM project-Heybeliada Class Corvettes mockups in the booth. Detailed information regarding the projects has been given to the Pakistan authorities accordingly. On the other hand, STM exhibited also Vertical Wind Tunnel model and senior local and foreign delegations were provided with information concerning projects.
Furthermore, the Deputy Minister of National Defence and Undersecretary for Defence Industries have launched a visit to Karachi Shiyard to see the Fleet Tanker project on site.
Besides that, MILGEM project-Heybeliada Class Corvetes have been promoted and introduced to the Pakistan Minister of Defence and Chief of Navy.
During the exhibition, a meeting was helded between STM and Chief of Pakistan Navy in his office and discussed about the ongoing project as well as the potential cooperation areas between Turkey and Pakistan.

News

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I do hope you are not comparing 123m 3,200 ton Meastrale class frigates and 43 meter 215 ton GRC43M Cutters, as they are toally different types of ships with entirely different functions and capabilities.

Well I did compared them not based on type and capability but price.

"Pakistan – GRC43M Cutters
WASHINGTON, Oct 30, 2014 – The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign
Military Sale to Pakistan for GRC43M Cutters and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support
for an estimated cost of $350 million.(Home Page | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency )"

Though these are essentially procured for coastal petrol duty.


As far as Maestrale-class frigates is concerned for Pakistan Navy it could have been used only as a stop gap because of old technology. What PN is actually thinking is not known but it would have considered the total cost and the time it has to use which might have not been enough as well as other options.

US$130 million each for used ships, (the Italians wanted $270 million for the refurbished vessels). As it seems, Manila later added $130 to get brand new vessels of the same type, for about $400 million. (but that seems rather odd to me: essentially getting a new 1980s ship in 2015)

Philippines Navy purchasing 80's designs in 2015 could only indicate one issue i.e The Navy might not be highly trained on European equipment hence preferred to induct it on a long term project.
IMO this does not make sense they old could have bought one extra just for training.

Ada class / Milgem is smaller but not necessarily a poorer choice.

PN has in the past (2008) shown interest in acquiring four Ada class corvettes over a 10-year program, of which three to be manufactured in local shipyards. But I could also see Turkish involvement in an F22P mod.

Ada class corvettes and F22P are almost identical displacement wise so a commonality in weapons package along with others can be highly beneficial.

There is a new thread where @Neptune post #6 is also discussing about F22P
Head of PN awarded TAF Order of Merit, visits Atatürk's tomb

 

[Penguin]

BE carefull in price comparisons untill it is clear exactly what each deal entails. For an estimated cost of $350 million, PN gets 8 cutters and associated equipment (weapons, ordnance), parts, training and logistical support (i.e. multiyear deal). Whereas the price for the Italian ships includes the used ships with weapons and a full load of munitions and a 'zero mileage' refurbishment.

 

[waz]

Well that ends the speculation then.

Time for the federal government to become serious about the state of the navy. Get talking to China and Turkey.

 

[black-hawk_101]

So PN is happy with one OHP?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

BE carefull in price comparisons untill it is clear exactly what each deal entails. For an estimated cost of $350 million, PN gets 8 cutters and associated equipment (weapons, ordnance), parts, training and logistical support (i.e. multiyear deal). Whereas the price for the Italian ships includes the used ships with weapons and a full load of munitions and a 'zero mileage' refurbishment.

You are correct.

In lay man type calculations based on the price of wiki
F22P vs Milgem vs Maestrale (considering quantity 8)

F-22P Zulfiquar-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MILGEM project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maestrale-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F22P with Turkish upgrades would offer a great deal.
Milgem with increase in over all numbers would also offer a substantial bargain.
These would take atleast 10 years to build.

The only advantage Maestrale would provide is reduced induction time though it would be the most expensive.

There is also a potential of collaboration with South Korea as well so the future acquisitions of PN would be interesting.

 

[Penguin]

So PN is happy with one OHP?

Do they have a choice?

 

[Penguin]

You are correct.

In lay man type calculations based on the price of wiki
F22P vs Milgem vs Maestrale (considering quantity 8)

F-22P Zulfiquar-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MILGEM project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maestrale-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F22P with Turkish upgrades would offer a great deal.
Milgem with increase in over all numbers would also offer a substantial bargain.
These would take atleast 10 years to build.

The only advantage Maestrale would provide is reduced induction time though it would be the most expensive.

There is also a potential of collaboration with South Korea as well so the future acquisitions of PN would be interesting.

Like the OHP, Meastrales would only be a stopgap between paying of the 10 years older Type 21s and arrival of new ships. It would not be cost-effective to upgrade. It's that or no interim ship or soldiering on with Tpe 21 for another ? years..