US Frigates Approved For Transfer – not to Pakistan

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Like the OHP, Meastrales would only be a stopgap between paying of the 10 years older Type 21s and arrival of new ships. It would not be cost-effective to upgrade. It's that or no interim ship or soldiering on with Tpe 21 for another ? years..

I do agree that the Type 21's are due for replacement. OHP's were going to be the replacement. Present situation is that these ships are not arriving. PN was also considering that they might also procure the Turkish (OHP's) may be some time after 2016 but that is also not going to happen.

How I see it PN can:
1) Order an upgrade of the existing PNS Badr that is decommissioned and the others may follow.
2) Order 4 - 6 F22P without Turkish upgrades for the first 2 or 3.
3) Purchase the 2 active and 3 lined up Milgems now and order a few more later.
4) Purchase some older South Korean ships and later go for some JV (still this is a long shot)
5) Purchase the Meastrale and be stuck with them for some 15 or more years.
6) Russia may also be willing to get some sort of deal (still this is a long shot).

Options 2 and 3 can be done parallel as they can be produced in friendly countries and Pakistan, that way time can be saved. Though at this time almost all the facilities in Pakistan are occupied due to various projects.

How much more can be taken out of the Type 21's can not be ascertained due to lack of information.
Operating 1 OHP is not cost effective and more over it is still not fully upgraded it would be wise to replace this ASAP. The only option that PN could forsee is that they give this to Turkish Navy.

 

[Neptune]

US offered OHPs a year ago. But TNF refused it reasoning the already large frigate numbers. Currently there are 8 Gabya-class frigates are in service. They are due to decommission by 2020, to be replaced by TF2000.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

US offered OHPs a year ago. But TNF refused it reasoning the already large frigate numbers. Currently there are 8 Gabya-class frigates are in service. They are due to decommission by 2020, to be replaced by TF2000.

Any Idea what would be the cost of TF2000?

 

[Penguin]

I do agree that the Type 21's are due for replacement. OHP's were going to be the replacement. Present situation is that these ships are not arriving. PN was also considering that they might also procure the Turkish (OHP's) may be some time after 2016 but that is also not going to happen.

How I see it PN can:
1) Order an upgrade of the existing PNS Badr that is decommissioned and the others may follow.
2) Order 4 - 6 F22P without Turkish upgrades for the first 2 or 3.
3) Purchase the 2 active and 3 lined up Milgems now and order a few more later.
4) Purchase some older South Korean ships and later go for some JV (still this is a long shot)
5) Purchase the Meastrale and be stuck with them for some 15 or more years.
6) Russia may also be willing to get some sort of deal (still this is a long shot).

Options 2 and 3 can be done parallel as they can be produced in friendly countries and Pakistan, that way time can be saved. Though at this time almost all the facilities in Pakistan are occupied due to various projects.

How much more can be taken out of the Type 21's can not be ascertained due to lack of information.
Operating 1 OHP is not cost effective and more over it is still not fully upgraded it would be wise to replace this ASAP. The only option that PN could forsee is that they give this to Turkish Navy.

I doubt Turkey would give up or forego any Milgem/Ada, but South Korea will be replacing its 9 Ulsan class ship, which are usefull, even if they lack helicopter facilities.

Operating 1 OHP isn't more or less cost effective than operating 1 Type 21, as operating cost is mostly personnel, fuel etc. Given its interim ship, it will not likely be upgraded. Although putting in Genesis might be worthwhile, if this is also adopted on e.g. new built F22P-mod's.

IMHO, PN should 'immediately' order an additional pair of F22P 'as is' domestically (total of 3 Chinese built, 3 Pakistani built F22P), then switch to the stealthier C28A design (which can't be all that different internally) with a mix of Chinese and Western electronics and sensor systems (e.g. Thales Smart-3 MK2 or NS-100 3D Aesa) and a 16 or 24 cell VLS e.g. 40km IRIS T SL or 30km Umkhonto-IR-ER. 2 x batch of 3 ships. Then eventually backfit the first 6 with 16 vls 25km basic IRIS-T and Thales radar. Or e.g. 20km Umkhonto blok 3. Might even consider a batch with the 60km Umkhonto- R.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Any Idea what would be the cost of TF2000?

750 million dollers

 

[black-hawk_101]

Do they have a choice?

Yes they had with F-22P live to produce it about 6 of them. And also a another 6 with more stealth and VLS based Missiles about 6-8 more along with some 12-16 FAC-OPV with 1100 tons load with similar capability.

I do agree that the Type 21's are due for replacement. OHP's were going to be the replacement. Present situation is that these ships are not arriving. PN was also considering that they might also procure the Turkish (OHP's) may be some time after 2016 but that is also not going to happen.

How I see it PN can:
1) Order an upgrade of the existing PNS Badr that is decommissioned and the others may follow.
2) Order 4 - 6 F22P without Turkish upgrades for the first 2 or 3.
3) Purchase the 2 active and 3 lined up Milgems now and order a few more later.
4) Purchase some older South Korean ships and later go for some JV (still this is a long shot)
5) Purchase the Meastrale and be stuck with them for some 15 or more years.
6) Russia may also be willing to get some sort of deal (still this is a long shot).

Options 2 and 3 can be done parallel as they can be produced in friendly countries and Pakistan, that way time can be saved. Though at this time almost all the facilities in Pakistan are occupied due to various projects.

How much more can be taken out of the Type 21's can not be ascertained due to lack of information.
Operating 1 OHP is not cost effective and more over it is still not fully upgraded it would be wise to replace this ASAP. The only option that PN could forsee is that they give this to Turkish Navy.

I think if PN had requested the EU for the possible transfer under a military aid program then there is a possibility they will fund PN to acquire all 8 of the Maestrale-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More over, PN can then upgrade them with Turkish-Local-EU supplied kits locally.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Yes they had with F-22P live to produce it about 6 of them. And also a another 6 with more stealth and VLS based Missiles about 6-8 more along with some 12-16 FAC-OPV with 1100 tons load with similar capability.


I think if PN had requested the EU for the possible transfer under a military aid program then there is a possibility they will fund PN to acquire all 8 of the Maestrale-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More over, PN can then upgrade them with Turkish-Local-EU supplied kits locally.

Well that might not have materialised.

PN would be going either for the F22P, Milgems or some other Chinese ones.

South Korea will be replacing its 9 Ulsan class ship, which are usefull, even if they lack helicopter facilities.

@black-hawk_101 The South Korean ships may be giving some extra time as they are of the later years. More over South Korea did also extend cooperation in ship building to Pakistan.

 

[Penguin]

Yes they had with F-22P live to produce it about 6 of them. And also a another 6 with more stealth and VLS based Missiles about 6-8 more along with some 12-16 FAC-OPV with 1100 tons load with similar capability.

Realistically, the PN needed ships immediately. It takes time to build and fit out new ships. PN should be Lucky enough to keep fleet numbers up, expansion is not in the cards financially

I think if PN had requested the EU for the possible transfer under a military aid program then there is a possibility they will fund PN to acquire all 8 of the Maestrale-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More over, PN can then upgrade them with Turkish-Local-EU supplied kits locally.

EU does not fund foreign military, individual EU nations might..

 

[alimobin memon]

1 frigate and 1 missile boat sized ship in karachi shipyard on is like being repaired and other is like 3rd azmat class.
24.838645, 66.972815 coordinates

 

[nomi007]

it is better to induct
Bremen-class frigate
because 4 of them has been decommissioned and probably available for sale

 

[Krate M]

@nomi007 I think that is wrong attitude. Kab tak dusro ke utare hue kapdo se apne mulk ki aabroo ko dhakoge, why not make more f22p in Karachi where the yard is lying idle or making small patrol boats, why did they stop after making only one at Karachi. What purpose making only one will serve. You guys should be pushing your government for more homemade stuff, not rooting for old junk from abroad.

 

[Basel]

Shouldn't PN consider Type 52 destroyer on lease or purchase from PLAN. They are relatively new ships and recently have been upgraded as well.

True, PN need these type of ships, Type-52C+ with some upgraded like similar radar like SPY-1D/F will be good for PN.

At least 3 to 4 ships with 8 F-22-Ps & 4 to 6 Type-54As are need of PN fleet if we want to purchase Chinese equipment although if PN had funds advance western equipment will be available to them but with no TOT while China will provide TOT if required.

well i know that our navy is in need of some quick inductions , we do have option but i guess there are some Corruption in Navy , who lobby to go for this OHP junks rather than building up our f-22p's .

It is said that old OHPs are still ahead in tech then our new F-22Ps. @Penguin can explain it better as he is one of those who said it on PDF.

 

[rockstar08]

True, PN need these type of ships, Type-52C+ with some upgraded like similar radar like SPY-1D/F will be good for PN.

At least 3 to 4 ships with 8 F-22-Ps & 4 to 6 Type-54As are need of PN fleet if we want to purchase Chinese equipment although if PN had funds advance western equipment will be available to them but with no TOT while China will provide TOT if required.



It is said that old OHPs are still ahead in tech then our new F-22Ps. @Penguin can explain it better as he is one of those who said it on PDF.

bhai does the tech only matter ?? what about the life of the ship ? we buy OHP now and than have to retire them in few years ... than what option do we have ? our type 21 has finished their period and now waiting to be retired , they are i think 5 in numbers once they are retired we dont have any replacement nor any F-22p's under construction i know of

 

[Basel]

bhai does the tech only matter ?? what about the life of the ship ? we buy OHP now and than have to retire them in few years ... than what option do we have ? our type 21 has finished their period and now waiting to be retired , they are i think 5 in numbers once they are retired we dont have any replacement nor any F-22p's under construction i know of

@Penguin have posted detailed analysis in this regard, he can explain why OHP is better.

 

[Penguin]

OHPs were not intended a definitive solution, more as gap-filler until arrival of newer ships. As things stand today, there will not likely be any more forthcoming. FYI Pakistan didn't buy OHP but weere given them in aid. Paid was only the cost of refurbishment, spares, crew training and logistics support. While OHP are relatively old, they have been upgraded over the years. While they've lost their AShM and SAM capabilities, they still are very good ASW platforms.

it is better to induct
Bremen-class frigate
because 4 of them has been decommissioned and probably available for sale

These are variants of the Dutch Kortenaer class S-frigates. All Dutch ships of this type have found their way to other navies, mostly Greece, which already had a pair of S-frigates purpose built. THese German ships are fine ships that may still have some life left (although the oldest are from 1979-1980 and now 35 years old. The newest are from 1987) Perhaps a decade with good care. Most OHP currently being retired by USN are from around 1985-1989: in fact younger than the decommed Bremen ....). But the Bremen's perhaps have clocked less 'mileage'.