US attacks 5th time in a week! | PAF patrols Pak skies

[Blackpearl]

Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily] - PAF patrols the tribal areas

The Associated Press: Suspected US missile strike kills 8 in Pakistan

Pakistan News Service - PakTribune

‘US to hit militant safe havens in Pakistan’

‘US to hit militant safe havens in Pakistan’

WASHINGTON: Defence Secretary Robert Gates and Adm Mike Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, conceded before the House of Representatives Armed Services Committee on Wednesday that the US military was not winning the fight against an increasingly deadly insurgency in Afghanistan, saying it would revise its strategy to combat militant safe havens in Pakistan.


Now American intentions are clear. Since the begining of September, every day US forces have made incursions in Pakistani territory. This includes a raid by a helicopter force on AngoorAdda.

i want to start this thread, to discuss, what all are the options available with Pak forces in the region. My assessment is that, we have following forces available on ground to counter a heliborne force, if it again comes from Afghanistan.
- F-7 fighter interceptor at Peshawar
- Cobra helicopters of Army
- Army air defence forces (Stinger SAM) at areas closer to Afghan Border.

The point of discussion is capability and constraints of each force.
Helicopters are low flying object, and become more difficult to detect when flying under the cover of ravines and valleys, typical of North Western area.
So what are the chances that F-7 or F-16 can really pick them up.
Are Cobra helicopter really capable to detect and engage intruding helicopters.
For the sake of discussion to explore potentialities of our forces, lets assume we are not facing US forces rather, but simply discuss how to counter another helicopter raid from across the border (may it be from our Eastern border).

 

[was]

there is a desperate need of awacs now

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hand out some SAM's (ala Stingers) to the tribesmen...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

best solution is... wait for Bush to F off from his office and hope for McCain to be elected... his stance on pakistan is not as harsh as Obama?OSama or Bush... Mccain will be more worried about IRAN thus pakistan may have a chase to sneak through. lol.. or we can hope for full scale cold war between Russia and US and eventually US may bug off from Pakistan..
and guys... F-7 or JF-17 will be no good for pakistan intercepting US troops.. lol.. it will cause us more problems..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

23 March:

I diagree on McCain - the problem isn't over what Obama says in his campaign, its with the ideological differences between conservatives and liberals, especially when it comes to national security.

The conservatives, especially the NeoCons, have a very rabid approach to the world - stark lines of 'good and evil', and despite all the lip service of 'acceptance of religious diversity', for the conservatives Islam more generally represents an 'enemy' and 'evil'. And to defeat their 'enemy' the Neocons are far more willing to breeak laws, rules, and norms, essentially do whatever it takes, so that they prevail.

McCain will likely depend upon a coterie of advisors to determine the direction the US takes, and he will also most likely give a lot of weight to the military establishment's views. Since his advisors will primarily be from the conservative spectrum of thought, the two major inputs into his decision making will not reflect any great change from the Bush Administration.

 

[IceCold]

PAF as of now is in bad shape, thanks to our policy makers and the year of sactions we had to face. We are still in the phase of modernizing the airforce with the US built F-16s, the JF-17 and AWACS. I have not included the J-10 because we havent yet reached a deal on it as for now. A functional BVR capability is yet to be included. So dont just think that we will shot an american helicopter of for that matter a drone and every thing will come to rest, infact it will cause more problems for us, reason being that the next time these helicopters will not come alone, they will be escorted by USAF and they will directly engage our airforce thanks to their supperior technology and in this manner we will suffer more loss.
The more reasonsible choice maybe that we test an ICBM. If things have gone that bad that our soveregnty is being compromised, then it may not be over hyped to test a missile that can hit US targets across the globe including the US main land. To detter an opponent and that too much bigger in size and equippment, sometimes aggressive polices are required. I for one doubt that our political leadership has the capability to show that aggressiveness or to actually stand up to the occasion. I miss musharraf today.

 

[Janbaz]

23 March:

I diagree on McCain - the problem isn't over what Obama says in his campaign, its with the ideological differences between conservatives and liberals, especially when it comes to national security.

The conservatives, especially the NeoCons, have a very rabid approach to the world - stark lines of 'good and evil', and despite all the lip service of 'acceptance of religious diversity', for the conservatives Islam more generally represents an 'enemy' and 'evil'. And to defeat their 'enemy' the Neocons are far more willing to breeak laws, rules, and norms, essentially do whatever it takes, so that they prevail.

McCain will likely depend upon a coterie of advisors to determine the direction the US takes, and he will also most likely give a lot of weight to the military establishment's views. Since his advisors will primarily be from the conservative spectrum of thought, the two major inputs into his decision making will not reflect any great change from the Bush Administration.

And add to the that the spineless Democratic Congress..............its impotency regarding important issues, McSame will be given a green light to take a Reagen'esque approach to issues.

 

[Janbaz]

PAF as of now is in bad shape, thanks to our policy makers and the year of sactions we had to face. We are still in the phase of modernizing the airforce with the US built F-16s, the JF-17 and AWACS. I have not included the J-10 because we havent yet reached a deal on it as for now. A functional BVR capability is yet to be included. So dont just think that we will shot an american helicopter of for that matter a drone and every thing will come to rest, infact it will cause more problems for us, reason being that the next time these helicopters will not come alone, they will be escorted by USAF and they will directly engage our airforce thanks to their supperior technology and in this manner we will suffer more loss.
The more reasonsible choice maybe that we test an ICBM. If things have gone that bad that our soveregnty is being compromised, then it may not be over hyped to test a missile that can hit US targets across the globe including the US main land. To detter an opponent and that too much bigger in size and equippment, sometimes aggressive polices are required. I for one doubt that our political leadership has the capability to show that aggressiveness or to actually stand up to the occasion. I miss musharraf today.

Leave the ICBM for later, remind them that Pakistan is a soveriegn nuclear nation and that any price will be paid to defend the territory that is held within that name.............More tough talk and bluffing!

 

[third eye]

PAF as of now is in bad shape, thanks to our policy makers and the year of sactions we had to face. We are still in the phase of modernizing the airforce with the US built F-16s, the JF-17 and AWACS. I have not included the J-10 because we havent yet reached a deal on it as for now. A functional BVR capability is yet to be included. So dont just think that we will shot an american helicopter of for that matter a drone and every thing will come to rest, infact it will cause more problems for us, reason being that the next time these helicopters will not come alone, they will be escorted by USAF and they will directly engage our airforce thanks to their supperior technology and in this manner we will suffer more loss.
The more reasonsible choice maybe that we test an ICBM. If things have gone that bad that our soveregnty is being compromised, then it may not be over hyped to test a missile that can hit US targets across the globe including the US main land. To detter an opponent and that too much bigger in size and equippment, sometimes aggressive polices are required. I for one doubt that our political leadership has the capability to show that aggressiveness or to actually stand up to the occasion. I miss musharraf today.

Its not so much about having an inferior AF,or having ICBM's or any other wherewithall for the matter.

Its about having the national will ( on part of the Govt not the masses) to confront the US & be prepared for the consequences that will follow ( the non military kind). Is any GOP prepared for it ?

How many things are ACTUALLY happening without the knowledege of the GOP ?

Making statements for the consumption of the masses is one thing, having the courage to translate it into action is a diff matter.

 

[shehbazi2001]

First thing Pakistan should do to deter cross-border attacks is to stop the NATO supply line through Pakistan.

Second, Pakistan can force the US to vacate one of the airfields that they are using. If it does not work, ask them to vacate all the airfields within Pakistan.

Thirdly, most of the military and civil hardware (like PIA) purchases be directed towards Asian and European suppliers rather than US.

Like Iran, Pakistan can even declare Euro as the main international trading currency of Pakistan instead of dollar.

Military options include the deployment and use of shoulder-fired SAMs of Pakistani origin to test their effectiveness. They can be deployed by small groups of people or soldiers.

A helicopter can be most vulnerable when dropping soldiers. Then it can be hit by almost anything. All expected helicopter landing zones around the villages or inside villages can be brought under fire with careful planning.

For anti-aircraft guns, the standard technique for shooting down helicopter is triangulation. This uses at least three AA guns positioned at the corners of a triangle. Any helicopter coming inside the triangle cant escape.

A more robust configuration is to place camoflagued guns in a circle or pentagon and wait for the helicopter to come inside. Pilot is going to detect one or two guns and when he shall come in for the attack, he is going to get fire from all sides.

Hellfire operates by laser guidance and we need simple laser warning receivers for the operators of AA guns, if not radar-guided. Rather for surprise, they should be manned.

For added security, radar warning receivers can also be provided. These receivers should not be costly. The post can be vacated quickly over the warning of impending strike.

As most weapon's guidance is through line-of-sight, all guns should be placed such that a line of sight cant be established from 4-5km distance for anyone coming from Afghanistan. This should be easy in hilly terrain.

For added safety, the teams of AA guns and MANPADS should work together, guns taking out terrain-hugging helicopters and MANPADS taking out the ones out of range of guns or flying a bit higher.

Guns and MANPADS can force them to fly at least higher than 10,000 feet and if they are flying at more than 10,000feet, then they can neither land their troops nor employ all the weapons. The choice of weapons will become limited.

 

[su-47]

Hand out some SAM's (ala Stingers) to the militants ...

and then pakistan will fall headlong into 'the axis of evil' for supplying arms to militants.

Besides, isnt Pak at war with these militants? so then basically you'll be supplying your enemy.

 

[batmannow]

best solution is... wait for Bush to F off from his office and hope for McCain to be elected... his stance on pakistan is not as harsh as Obama?OSama or Bush... Mccain will be more worried about IRAN thus pakistan may have a chase to sneak through. lol.. or we can hope for full scale cold war between Russia and US and eventually US may bug off from Pakistan..
and guys... F-7 or JF-17 will be no good for pakistan intercepting US troops.. lol.. it will cause us more problems..

Dear 23march sir,
I guss, great nations never wish's nor wait to its enemy's actions, we must start planing how to stop them....!

 

[maqsad]

The point of discussion is capability and constraints of each force.
Helicopters are low flying object, and become more difficult to detect when flying under the cover of ravines and valleys, typical of North Western area.
So what are the chances that F-7 or F-16 can really pick them up.
Are Cobra helicopter really capable to detect and engage intruding helicopters.
For the sake of discussion to explore potentialities of our forces, lets assume we are not facing US forces rather, but simply discuss how to counter another helicopter raid from across the border (may it be from our Eastern border).

I think in mountainous terrain helicopters are very hard to spot even if you have a state of the art AWACS flying 24/7. So the solution is to go to every single mountain and valley in Kashmir, FATA etc and dig some bunkers in strategic locations. These bunkers would not be that large and would also have the ability to be run unmanned for many days at a time. On top of each bunker will be placed a few low range sonar, radar and ultrasound sensors and transmitters. Every single valley or nook would be within range of at least 3 of these bunkers which would constantly be monitoring the hilly areas for sound, radiation and visual cues. They will be linked to a central processing area in another location which deals with input coming in from all bunkers and triangulating suspicious readings. This will allow the listening stations to detect even "under the radar" incursions within seconds of coming in range. The bunkers would also be manned by a few SAMs which can be launched by remote control or by soldiers in the bunkers upon order.

In fact I think this low cost system could also look forward across the border to areas Pakistan does not even control and detect incoming choppers flying low in valleys to avoid radar from 2 or 3 miles away.

 

[shehbazi2001]

and then pakistan will fall headlong into 'the axis of evil' for supplying arms to militants.

Besides, isnt Pak at war with these militants? so then basically you'll be supplying your enemy.

SAMs can be easily operated by ordinary tribesmen or even by Pak Army becuase thats a matter of national sovereignty.

I remember that Pak Army Air Defence has a huge experience of shooting down aircraft coming from Afghanistan. In the Afghan war, Pakistani gunners shot down many afghan fighters jet including Mig-21s.

The ISPR joural "Hilal" used to come to the library of our college and I was its regular reader. In one issue, a whole article was published on the shooting of intruder aircraft over afghan border by air defence gunners.

 

[BATMAN]

IMHO, At the moment first thing to do will be to make sure no politician and their immediate family member leave the country and they should be transferred to some official residence in FATA.
Their funds in Pakistan must be frozen and they should be forced to bring their foreign assets to Pakistan immediately.
This will make sure that they will not try to negotiate Pakistan in return for their own amnesty, as did by Sharif on last occasion.
US have already declared the war so it is emergency situation any way.
Army chief should deliver speech and tell people what democracy of Zardari has brought upon them, declare emergency without waiting for next strike.
Next, military envoy should be rushed to Russia and China. Asking Russia for air support and China to stand by if india invade from south as usual. We should involve Iran in our final kill. We should forget about Arabs.
Now, coming to the military action plan;
In beginning we should not use air force for interception of US incursion. Our interception should be limited to ground defense. Only, if situation risk to escalate than first all mirages should destroy every single airstrip in Afghanistan and Russia airforce should make sure any aircraft flying in or out of Afghanistan be destroyed be it civilian or indian.
Next all US and Afghan forces bases must be targeted (speciallz their food and water supply) with long range SSM. Mean while Pak navy should mine the gulf heavily so that foreign fleets in gulf be trapped and destroyed next immediately.
I hope my point is clear that in case of escalation risk we should be offensive and not defensive and must move our troops to Kabul. I wonder how US can continue after losing his fleet and basis.
Off course we must heavily mine all our border with india without any delay we should be ready with cluster bombs in case of invasion and off course not to mention our finger must be on the button all the time with babur looking south. Foreign land can be used to fire shoot babur.