Oublious
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Two S-400 batteries and 240 warheads to cost Turkey $2.5bn
- Thread starter TheMightyBender
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MMM-E
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in 5 years TURKEY will have the most modern superior weapons , then what will you do ?
-250km SOM Cruise Missile ( anti ship / land attack ) is in service since 2012
-4 Boeing 737 AEWCs are in service since 2014
-T-129 Attack Helicopter is in service since 2014 ( total 91 planed )
-KORAL Radar Electronic Warfare System is in service since 2015
-120 km TRG-300 guided MLRS is in service since 2016
-BORA Tactical Ballistic Missile by 2017 ... ( can hit Athens )
-OMTAS anti Tank Missile by 2017
-S400 Air Defense System by 2018
-2 ADA class stealth Corvettes by 2018-2019
-F-35 stealth Fighter Jet by 2019
-ALTAY Tank by 2020
-Airborne Stand off Jammer (SOJ) Aircraft by 2020
-6 of U214TN class Submarines between 2020 and 2025
-HISAR-A and HISAR-O Air Defense Systems by 2020-2021
-4 of MILGEM-I class stealth Frigates with 220 km ATMACA anti ship Missile between 2021 and 2024
-2 of LHD ( 232 meters ) by 2021 - 2025
GREECE occupied 16 Turkish Islands ... Greece is playing with fire
Germany provoked Ukraine but Russia took Crimea from Ukraine .... so Germany and Israel never can fight against Turkey for Greece
and TURKEY has enough Power to fight in 3 front against Greece - Pkk and Ypg in Iraq and Syria
sooner or later Turkey will give another lesson to Greece as like did it in 1974
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There is a saying in Turkey; Rabbit rubbed his genital on mountain, then rabbit says "i fcked that mountain".
That's exactly same thing with your "opinion"
Apart from the manners, perhaps even the genitals, you seem to have also inherited the iq of the rabbit, thanks for confirming what i already suspected.
You could say so depending on the economy, if you judge the last 8 years superficially but it's not a burden at all for the europeans, what's happening in Greece(although a huge matter which needs a topic of its own) is exactly saving the europeans banks from greek bonds which according to market laws had to be defaulted since 2010, with all these so called "rescue programs and packages" you hear from the news, the europeans have minimized the losses their bank systems had to take according to free market laws by repaying those bonds that now are almost all debt owned to state members laying the burden on the greek people.
But economy in my opinion is a different thing so let's return to our main point, which is geopolitical in my opinion don't forget that Greece's geographic position between 3 continents(Europe, Asia, Africa) is highly valuable , as well as Turkey's, that's why in the cold war period and right after it till now Turkey and Greece were very important for NATO and were receiving economic and military aid from the USA under the Truman doctrine.
Nato's biggest military bases as far as its southeast flank is concerned are first turkish Incirlik and then greek in Souda bay from which many military operations were conducted in the past. And with Turkey moving away more and more from nato Greece's value increases even more.
I agree that the tend is for Turkey to gain completely the upper hand in the near future and for Greece to have problem even in such a short conflict scenario(where for the time being at least i still believe there are pretty good chances), i'm no fool to believe that in the long run a country of 11 millions can keep up in the military spending with an 80 million country and with an economy of 200 billion dollars gdp against a 900.
But it's not a childish 1 vs 1 hypothesis, alliances and big powers interests is what counts most in my opinion.
As far as the so called 16 islands matter is concerned, i have told my opinion in the relevant topic, all this matter of Greece having annexed "turkish" islands when Turkey's military was mostly kemalist and Erdogan was much weaker than now and no turkish or other foreign media mentioning even the smallest detail and Greece annexing them in the start of our biggest economic crisis is total bs.
But if you want a serious discussion, we can talk specifically with international law and treaties about which islands belong to Turkey and "Greece annexed them".
The 1974 matter wasn't a matter of Turkey's power, which as i have mentioned before i don't underestimate, i have studied the Cyprus invasion matter and what i can tell you it was clearly a british american plan under a classic divide and rule doctrine, so that neither side owns completely Cyprus and so that greek cypriot leader Makarios didn't try(as he wanted to) to switch sides going with the soviets during the Cold war.
And i assure you, that the british, USA and the whole nato even if all greek cypriots as well as greeks didn't grab their arms to defend, they would intervene alone by themselves against Turkey, if you tried for example to make the whole island yours. To make a long story short, Cyprus is too important geostrategically for any side to own completely.
But that's another huge matter which a topic of its own.
Fenasi Kerim
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@NickGr, much as I appreciate your realism, respectfully I disagree with one thing, in the short term in such an event of war (hopefully will never happen). Turkey could easily seize Islands that are close to the Turkish coast with little effort.
Cyprus would be out of bounds for Greece and Turkey would escalate there also, how far depends on the international players involved.
Further, this is not like the 70's or 80's where Greece had to try field quality against Turkish brute force, things have changed a lot and I believe as things stand Turkey does maintain the qualitative and quantitative edge.
Any escalation in the Thracian border would be unlikely unless things really hit the fan ww3 style.
S-400 and the future projects in this field will reboot our air defence and shift the balance even more in favour of Turkey.
Cyprus would be out of bounds for Greece and Turkey would escalate there also, how far depends on the international players involved.
Further, this is not like the 70's or 80's where Greece had to try field quality against Turkish brute force, things have changed a lot and I believe as things stand Turkey does maintain the qualitative and quantitative edge.
Any escalation in the Thracian border would be unlikely unless things really hit the fan ww3 style.
S-400 and the future projects in this field will reboot our air defence and shift the balance even more in favour of Turkey.
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First of all, i leave the Cyprus matter out of the conflict because it is being considered another country, officialy Turkey and Greece never fought each other in Cyprus, except for the official Greece's forces of ELDYK, which were there due to our guarantor power rights and a small special forces regiment(about 300 men if i remember correct) sent from Greece with some transport planes.
But i don't want to avoid to answer, so yes indeed, Turkey has the upper hand on Cyprus since you already have a foot on the island and as we know the most difficult part in island invasions(not only there) is for your army to gain a foot there and create a sustainable bridgehead till reinforcements arrive and push forward.
That's what all the Cyprus invasion matter was about, for example if the greekcypriot forces managed in 1974 to repel back the initial turkish force at Pentemili beach, without Turkey managing to land heavy armored vehicles and tanks as planned(since Ertugrul couldn't disembark them on that beach), which it did much later on the third day close to the agreed ceasefire time with the task force Bora, and your major Bedrettin Demirel, the invasion force would possibly fail on its objective. So i don't think Turkey could make a further advance on Cyprus as i said due to foreign interests against it(Cyprus is too important for any side to own completely and the part Turkey invaded and keeps till now was a british-american inspired plan) and even if they did and achieved some success in territory gains, Greece wouldn't later discuss about on the negotiation table, the Cyprus republic is a sovereign state not part of Greece.
For the Thrace front i agree that it would go on an all out war since there are many forces densely placed there in a relatively small part of land, so in the short time conflict possibly we have the greek islands or islets invasion scenario close to Turkey.
First of all don't underestimate the garrison forces there, they may be officially declared to be national guard(since some islands by international laws and treaties are in some part demilitarized), but they are regular troops(and you know that well) and native men at least in the inhabited islands have been given military weapons for such a case. But that's the last line of defence, the "boots on the ground" scenario, there is strong naval(with submarine force especially looking strong) and air support which although not being so close as turkish naval and air forces have to be taken into account, as well as the strong AA protection in almost every island that will try to cancel the turkish air dominance hypothesis.
And even if for some reason some islands are taken, the greek army has been working a lot on military exercises of scenarios of retaking those islands with second wave forces that will arrive from the distant greek mainland.
In most you said i agree, but in the island seizure i don't think it would be such an easy task. In the long run and the future weapons Turkey will acquire, i agree the military balance changes a lot and Greece can't keep up on her own against Turkey.
Sorry for the big answer.
But i don't want to avoid to answer, so yes indeed, Turkey has the upper hand on Cyprus since you already have a foot on the island and as we know the most difficult part in island invasions(not only there) is for your army to gain a foot there and create a sustainable bridgehead till reinforcements arrive and push forward.
That's what all the Cyprus invasion matter was about, for example if the greekcypriot forces managed in 1974 to repel back the initial turkish force at Pentemili beach, without Turkey managing to land heavy armored vehicles and tanks as planned(since Ertugrul couldn't disembark them on that beach), which it did much later on the third day close to the agreed ceasefire time with the task force Bora, and your major Bedrettin Demirel, the invasion force would possibly fail on its objective. So i don't think Turkey could make a further advance on Cyprus as i said due to foreign interests against it(Cyprus is too important for any side to own completely and the part Turkey invaded and keeps till now was a british-american inspired plan) and even if they did and achieved some success in territory gains, Greece wouldn't later discuss about on the negotiation table, the Cyprus republic is a sovereign state not part of Greece.
For the Thrace front i agree that it would go on an all out war since there are many forces densely placed there in a relatively small part of land, so in the short time conflict possibly we have the greek islands or islets invasion scenario close to Turkey.
First of all don't underestimate the garrison forces there, they may be officially declared to be national guard(since some islands by international laws and treaties are in some part demilitarized), but they are regular troops(and you know that well) and native men at least in the inhabited islands have been given military weapons for such a case. But that's the last line of defence, the "boots on the ground" scenario, there is strong naval(with submarine force especially looking strong) and air support which although not being so close as turkish naval and air forces have to be taken into account, as well as the strong AA protection in almost every island that will try to cancel the turkish air dominance hypothesis.
And even if for some reason some islands are taken, the greek army has been working a lot on military exercises of scenarios of retaking those islands with second wave forces that will arrive from the distant greek mainland.
In most you said i agree, but in the island seizure i don't think it would be such an easy task. In the long run and the future weapons Turkey will acquire, i agree the military balance changes a lot and Greece can't keep up on her own against Turkey.
Sorry for the big answer.
KediKesenFare3
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Why is Turkey buying the Russian S-400 missile defence system?
The purchase of the system is part of a policy to better protect itself from wars raging on it's borders and to make the country's defence industry more self-sufficient. But the move risks damaging relations with its NATO allies.
Photo by: Reuters
File image of Russian S-400 Triumf air defence system.
Aug 1, 2017
Updated Aug 3, 2017
Turkey, which boasts the second-largest army in NATO, announced last week, on Tuesday, it had inked a deal to buy an S-400 (NATO version SA-21 Growler) missile defence system for $2-3 billion from Russia.
The deal led NATO members to question Turkey's move and what it means for their alliance with NATO.
The parties did not share the details of the S-400 agreement due to its sensitivity. But according to initial agreements, next year Turkey will receive two S-400 missile batteries from Russia and in the next two years will produce two batteries on Turkish soil.
The agreement dates back to November 2016, however, at the end of April 2017, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu made it clear that they were in talks with Russia regarding the S-400s and negotiations about joint production and costs have picked up steam since then.
Sergey Chermezov, CEO of Rostec Corporation, said Ankara was ready to buy the batteries with a loan provided by Moscow.
The company, Rosoboronexport OJSC, which produces and sells the S-400s, denied disclosing information on the details of the purchase.
Why is Turkey buying S-400s?
First, an air defence system is perceived as a 'must-have' for Turkey. S-400s can defend a large area and can hit targets as far as 250 miles away which can counterbalance threats from the region.
Secondly, Turkey is pursuing a more independent foreign policy through the purchase that aims to protect its airspace and counter threats beyond its borders as conflict rages on in neighbouring Iraq and Syria.
An added bonus for Turkey is that the S-400 is cheaper than other defence systems in the same league.
In 2013, Turkey launched a tender aiming to purchase defence systems. A Chinese company, (CPMIEC), suggested the most affordable price, but America forced Turkey to drop the deal by saying that the company had been sanctioned by the US for alleged missile sales to Iran.
That same year, German and Dutch Patriots (US-made missiles) were deployed to Turkey's Syrian border cities. The systems were removed in 2015 due to the assessment that the threat from Syria was over. Spanish Patriots took their place.
S-400 Triumf was developed by Russian Almaz Central Design Bureau, as the successor to the S-300 missiles, and has been in service in Russian Armed Forces since 2007. (Reuters)
Another reason for the purchase is that the Turkish government made it clear that they have long wanted to develop an indigenous defence technology.
In 2006, Turkey failed to make a deal with American companies to produce joint attack helicopters. The US refused to give Turkey the codes. This purchase will let Turkey acquire "know-how" and allow a transfer of technology.
Turkey does not want to be dependent on Western-originated weapons in the defence industry. Thus, it wants to create diversity in defence as well as in energy.
"They agreed to extend the deployment of the Patriot missile defence system, but as soon as they decided to move the system this leaves Turkey vulnerable to attack and redeployment can take some time, but how could you predict when an attack will take place," Merve Seren, expert for defence systems at SETA Foundation, told TRT World.
Turkey has invested billions of dollars to develop its defence industry and gain independence in domestic arms production. The partnership could boost Turkey’s industry and serve the country's goal of diversifying its arms suppliers.
Lastly, the deal also allows Turkey to send a political message to its allies. Policy makers have often said that relations with Russia are not an ultimatum to either NATO or the EU, the actual message of the purchase is to show that Turkey does indeed have alternatives.
What exactly is the S-400?
The S-400 Triumf is Russia’s next-generation, most advanced long-range anti-aircraft missile system.
It is designed to detect, track and then destroy any machine that poses a threat.
The Triumf is twice as effective as other anti-aircraft missile systems. It can work with 4 different types of missiles with different starting weight and launch range.
According to a report, the two countries agreed on a two-battery system with 240 warheads, and search-detection-tracking and baffle radars.
Russia has also agreed to sell them to China and India.
Why does this bother the US?
The existence of Russian S-400 missiles on Turkish soil has annoyed the US.
Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff General Joseph Dunford said that Turkey's possible purchase of Russian S-400 missile defence systems is "concerning."
"Turkey has not completed a deal with Russia yet. If they would, it would be concerning," Dunford said.
Shortly after Erdogan said they had inked the agreement with Russians about the S-400s, he questioned, "Why would it be concerning? Every country needs to take certain measures for its own security."
"Steps have been taken and signatures signed. God willing, we will see S-400 missiles on our soil and precede the process with joint production," Erdogan said.
Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 led to sanctions against Russian officials by the US and EU. The purchase is seen by the the EU and the US as undermining the sanctions towards Russia.
The Russian defence system, according to Turkey's NATO allies, will be incompatible with NATO infrastructure.
"The problem is, how do you inter operate in the NATO system with Russians? They'll never inter operate," US Defense Secretary James Mattis told reporters. "We'll have to see — does it go through? Do they actually employ it? Do they employ it only in one area? All that kind of stuff. But you know, we'll have to take a look at it."
Greece bought the S-300 batteries from Russia in 1997, shortly after coming to the brink of war with Turkey and tested it in 2013. NATO allies, with the exception of Turkey, kept silent.
In 2015, Greece was reportedly looking to purchase new missiles and other services from Russia in order to keep its S-300 batteries operational. (Reuters)
Turkey plans to make its S-400 compatible with NATO systems by making an interface program through IFF coding (friend and foe identification program) to be provided by Aselsan, a Turkish defence industry firm.
"If Turkey relies completely on NATO, IFF system considers all member states as friendly. If there was an attack from Greece, IFF system will not see this as an attack and ignore it. But if Turkey controls its system then it can determine what and who is enemy or friend," Seren said.
What are potential ramifications?
Turkey's new purchase may worsen already strained relations with the US and the EU.
The US and the European Union accuse Turkey of being undemocratic and violating human rights.
Turkey has accused both the US and the EU of supporting the PKK and its Syrian branch the YPG that is considered a terrorist organisation, for and backing Fetullah Terrorist Organisation (FETO) and its followers who attempted to overthrow the democratically elected government.
Some EU member states banned Turkish government officials, and some EU members suggested suspending arms sales to Turkey. Turkey is currently seeking membership to the EU.
"I don't think direct sanctions will be an issue," Merve Seren of SETA said.
"But some indirect sanctions could be possible, for example, Germany may not honour some of its agreements with Turkey, and it may not sell some crucial parts needed for systems, and this might disrupt relations. But this is ultimately Turkey's choice."
Author: Ali Topchi
http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/why-is-turkey-buying-the-s-400-russian-missile-defence-system-409563
The purchase of the system is part of a policy to better protect itself from wars raging on it's borders and to make the country's defence industry more self-sufficient. But the move risks damaging relations with its NATO allies.
Photo by: Reuters
File image of Russian S-400 Triumf air defence system.
Updated Aug 3, 2017
Turkey, which boasts the second-largest army in NATO, announced last week, on Tuesday, it had inked a deal to buy an S-400 (NATO version SA-21 Growler) missile defence system for $2-3 billion from Russia.
The deal led NATO members to question Turkey's move and what it means for their alliance with NATO.
The parties did not share the details of the S-400 agreement due to its sensitivity. But according to initial agreements, next year Turkey will receive two S-400 missile batteries from Russia and in the next two years will produce two batteries on Turkish soil.
The agreement dates back to November 2016, however, at the end of April 2017, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu made it clear that they were in talks with Russia regarding the S-400s and negotiations about joint production and costs have picked up steam since then.
Sergey Chermezov, CEO of Rostec Corporation, said Ankara was ready to buy the batteries with a loan provided by Moscow.
The company, Rosoboronexport OJSC, which produces and sells the S-400s, denied disclosing information on the details of the purchase.
Why is Turkey buying S-400s?
First, an air defence system is perceived as a 'must-have' for Turkey. S-400s can defend a large area and can hit targets as far as 250 miles away which can counterbalance threats from the region.
Secondly, Turkey is pursuing a more independent foreign policy through the purchase that aims to protect its airspace and counter threats beyond its borders as conflict rages on in neighbouring Iraq and Syria.
An added bonus for Turkey is that the S-400 is cheaper than other defence systems in the same league.
In 2013, Turkey launched a tender aiming to purchase defence systems. A Chinese company, (CPMIEC), suggested the most affordable price, but America forced Turkey to drop the deal by saying that the company had been sanctioned by the US for alleged missile sales to Iran.
That same year, German and Dutch Patriots (US-made missiles) were deployed to Turkey's Syrian border cities. The systems were removed in 2015 due to the assessment that the threat from Syria was over. Spanish Patriots took their place.
S-400 Triumf was developed by Russian Almaz Central Design Bureau, as the successor to the S-300 missiles, and has been in service in Russian Armed Forces since 2007. (Reuters)
Another reason for the purchase is that the Turkish government made it clear that they have long wanted to develop an indigenous defence technology.
In 2006, Turkey failed to make a deal with American companies to produce joint attack helicopters. The US refused to give Turkey the codes. This purchase will let Turkey acquire "know-how" and allow a transfer of technology.
Turkey does not want to be dependent on Western-originated weapons in the defence industry. Thus, it wants to create diversity in defence as well as in energy.
"They agreed to extend the deployment of the Patriot missile defence system, but as soon as they decided to move the system this leaves Turkey vulnerable to attack and redeployment can take some time, but how could you predict when an attack will take place," Merve Seren, expert for defence systems at SETA Foundation, told TRT World.
Turkey has invested billions of dollars to develop its defence industry and gain independence in domestic arms production. The partnership could boost Turkey’s industry and serve the country's goal of diversifying its arms suppliers.
Lastly, the deal also allows Turkey to send a political message to its allies. Policy makers have often said that relations with Russia are not an ultimatum to either NATO or the EU, the actual message of the purchase is to show that Turkey does indeed have alternatives.
What exactly is the S-400?
The S-400 Triumf is Russia’s next-generation, most advanced long-range anti-aircraft missile system.
It is designed to detect, track and then destroy any machine that poses a threat.
The Triumf is twice as effective as other anti-aircraft missile systems. It can work with 4 different types of missiles with different starting weight and launch range.
According to a report, the two countries agreed on a two-battery system with 240 warheads, and search-detection-tracking and baffle radars.
Russia has also agreed to sell them to China and India.
Why does this bother the US?
The existence of Russian S-400 missiles on Turkish soil has annoyed the US.
Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff General Joseph Dunford said that Turkey's possible purchase of Russian S-400 missile defence systems is "concerning."
"Turkey has not completed a deal with Russia yet. If they would, it would be concerning," Dunford said.
Shortly after Erdogan said they had inked the agreement with Russians about the S-400s, he questioned, "Why would it be concerning? Every country needs to take certain measures for its own security."
"Steps have been taken and signatures signed. God willing, we will see S-400 missiles on our soil and precede the process with joint production," Erdogan said.
Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 led to sanctions against Russian officials by the US and EU. The purchase is seen by the the EU and the US as undermining the sanctions towards Russia.
The Russian defence system, according to Turkey's NATO allies, will be incompatible with NATO infrastructure.
"The problem is, how do you inter operate in the NATO system with Russians? They'll never inter operate," US Defense Secretary James Mattis told reporters. "We'll have to see — does it go through? Do they actually employ it? Do they employ it only in one area? All that kind of stuff. But you know, we'll have to take a look at it."
Greece bought the S-300 batteries from Russia in 1997, shortly after coming to the brink of war with Turkey and tested it in 2013. NATO allies, with the exception of Turkey, kept silent.
In 2015, Greece was reportedly looking to purchase new missiles and other services from Russia in order to keep its S-300 batteries operational. (Reuters)
Turkey plans to make its S-400 compatible with NATO systems by making an interface program through IFF coding (friend and foe identification program) to be provided by Aselsan, a Turkish defence industry firm.
"If Turkey relies completely on NATO, IFF system considers all member states as friendly. If there was an attack from Greece, IFF system will not see this as an attack and ignore it. But if Turkey controls its system then it can determine what and who is enemy or friend," Seren said.
What are potential ramifications?
Turkey's new purchase may worsen already strained relations with the US and the EU.
The US and the European Union accuse Turkey of being undemocratic and violating human rights.
Turkey has accused both the US and the EU of supporting the PKK and its Syrian branch the YPG that is considered a terrorist organisation, for and backing Fetullah Terrorist Organisation (FETO) and its followers who attempted to overthrow the democratically elected government.
Some EU member states banned Turkish government officials, and some EU members suggested suspending arms sales to Turkey. Turkey is currently seeking membership to the EU.
"I don't think direct sanctions will be an issue," Merve Seren of SETA said.
"But some indirect sanctions could be possible, for example, Germany may not honour some of its agreements with Turkey, and it may not sell some crucial parts needed for systems, and this might disrupt relations. But this is ultimately Turkey's choice."
Author: Ali Topchi
http://www.trtworld.com/turkey/why-is-turkey-buying-the-s-400-russian-missile-defence-system-409563
Mr.Department
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I guess they are comin and will be installed next week
Isnt it to early?
Mr.Department
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Lets wait for official confrmation but its not impossible to be related to that. Source for the S300?Too late
But we have already a S-300 in Ankara operative
Mr.Department
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Buddy, we had had "deep knowledge" in our very old forum birlik net, (DB hacked and gone from Fetö )
master RIP KK'oglu and other masters TOg and O8 confirmed that time.
Google is deleting history.
I know every country have its deep secrets and small amount of people have knowledge in this and especially Turkey related secret information. For now I would prefer to stick to the more sane theories as I still dont have access to this information maybe one day who knows. I can say that I just internally hope you are right.
Mr.Department
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Right. Not for self satisfaction. Remember REIS was total concerned at 15. July 2016.
Except some buddies from MIT (with Manpads) nobody protected Ankara and Presidents Palace.
There is a battery - but who had the trigger - ? They were CIA commanded Fetö guys , now in Germany
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