Turkish Special Operations Forces

[Neptune]

Of course you have valid and correct points in your post. But you are ignoring small pieces of information that bring the decisions of the military leaders into question. The governer did not order the soldiers to patrol the same route as a previous IED attack, that was an order given by military leadership. That is the key element you are missing, when there are military losses attributed to poor planning it cannot be blamed on politicians who are only present to make actions legal. The military leaders are the ones who decide and plan on how to act out the requests of politicians.

It is the military leaders job to perform adequately regardless of the political or legal status.

If a governer is hesitant them the military leadership should be adapting and improvising operational procedure to ensure all units maintain a healthy status as well as maximum operational readiness.

You need to understand that blaming a political factor is simply an excuse for incredibly faulty leadership. The military officers who ordered a patrol to use the same route, vehicles, and timing at a location that proved advantageous to terrorists conducting ambushes are either incredibly stubborn and refuse to adapt to the tactics of their enemy or they are simply underqualified and should not be in the extremely important position they occupy.

It may seem that I am being harsh but I have experienced these issues and I have also experienced the positives when a leader who changes this poisoned culture takes command.

You can blame politics all you want, but politicians do not make operational and tactical decisions which get soldiers killed. they only make legal documents and sign them.

Let me put the quality of our military leadership into a question for you.

Would you like a leader who encounters a problem and tells you it doesn't exist or that it is the governors fault and orders you to continue the same.

Or would you rather him to be critical, admit the mistake or weakness, fix it and adapt new tactics that allow you to not only be safer but also kill more scumbag terrorists.

Which sounds better to you ? Because currently our leaders are all of the first type.

Look at our counter terror history, any time a leader came in who completely changed our tactics and promoted a culture of adaptive tactics and aggressive counters we absolutely decimated the terrorists.

There is no point in comparing US and it's campaigns to our situation. completely different conflicts with completely different factors.

Since when military leadership gives orders to provincial gendarmerie forces?

 

[Jackal131]

Since when military leadership gives orders to provincial gendarmerie forces?

The politicians have no, I mean zero absolutely no input into operational and tactical decisions. The gendarmerie forces consist of lower tier ranks of officers and ncos taking operational and tactical orders from high ranking officers. I am only saying "military" leadership to clearly distinguish between political leaders and high ranking officers within the gendarmerie.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

If in my Country my security Forces are accused at court for collateral damages, there is something wrong !
They couldn't even shot heavy armed terrorists in cities and on the roads UNTIL KNOW.

But today it was announced that EVERYBODY who doesn't belong to security FORCES and is armed, will be shot without warning and some hundred were eliminated until know !
The President himself said today " Those Western supported terrorists will be combatted until they are eliminated, some hundreds are eliminated, that is not enough"!
I believe this DETERMINATION and much more effective operations in near future in and abroad, made some nations nervous and they decided to wthidraw their Patriots bataillions as a political sign and protest against Türkiye.
But they leave 300 hundred German Military Trainers in North-Iraq ! What a SCIZOFRENIC behaviour.
It is ridiculous that German Minister of Defence wants to send TORNADO RECCE planes to Incirlik;
the Intention is clear "They want to watch and document Turkish combat, nothing more"!

It is comparable with the US casualties, Daglica Region is comparable to mountainous Afghanistan and flat regions to some regions in Iraq.

 

[Neptune]

The politicians have no, I mean zero absolutely no input into operational and tactical decisions. The gendarmerie forces consist of lower tier ranks of officers and ncos taking operational and tactical orders from high ranking officers. I am only saying "military" leadership to clearly distinguish between political leaders and high ranking officers within the gendarmerie.

By interior jurisdiction, provincial gendarmerie commanders whom are Staff Colonels do take orders directly from the governor himself. That's period. If there's a problem, look at the laws and the government.

 

[Jackal131]

OTE="Hurshid Celebi, post: 7520626, member: 170091"]If in my Country my security Forces are accused at court for collateral damages, there is something wrong !
They couldn't even shot heavy armed terrorists in cities and on the roads UNTIL KNOW.

But today it was announced that EVERYBODY who doesn't belong to security FORCES and is armed, will be shot without warning and some hundred were eliminated until know !
The President himself said today " Those Western supported terrorists will be combatted until they are eliminated, some hundreds are eliminated, that is not enough"!
I believe this DETERMINATION and much more effective operations in near future in and abroad, made some nations nervous and they decided to wthidraw their Patriots bataillions as a political sign and protest against Türkiye.
But they leave 300 hundred German Military Trainers in North-Iraq ! What a SCIZOFRENIC behaviour.
It is ridiculous that German Minister of Defence wants to send TORNADO RECCE planes to Incirlik;
the Intention is clear "They want to watch and document Turkish combat, nothing more"!

It is comparable with the US casualties, Daglica Region is comparable to mountainous Afghanistan and flat regions to some regions in Iraq.[/QUOTE]

And I hope hundreds more continue to be killed.

Similar geography is not enough to compare on. Wasn't speaking of geographical factors but geopolitical and cultural and strategic factors. which are far different.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

@Jackal131 Please let us go on here:

The Fight against PKK Terrorism | Updates & Discussions | Page 93
That's false thread !

 

[Jackal131]

By interior jurisdiction, provincial gendarmerie commanders whom are Staff Colonels do take orders directly from the governor himself. That's period. If there's a problem, look at the laws and the government.

Lets set this straight, because those answer to the local governors you are claiming that the governess are trained in military strategy and tactics and make operational decisions.

Please. By your logic since the military is under the command of our parliament then all parliament members are the ones who make the operational and tactical decisions in a conflict.

No the governors choose the response but it is the military leadership that plan how to perform that response. blaming governors is an excuse. Engin Alan himself said blaming governors was an excuse, I'll take his word over yours.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

Engin Alan is a SF commander with respectable high reputation. You could give Engin Alan , if AKP and MHP will establish a coalition"; super Governor Power;
nothing will change in short time. We are "almost" in the hot period and unfortunately we will have more casualties,
I expect it will last until autumn.
TSK destroys their logistics in North Iraq and afaik in some regions boardering Syria. The tactic is right. Now they must be deleted with no MERCY in Türkiye and given no chanche to flee back to Iraq and Syria before winter comes.
If necessary camps in IRAN must also be hit !

 

[Timur]

man we should train turkmen forces and pick up special ops of them.. train them as if they are our own bordo bereli

send them to crack down pkk and maybe the germans who help them

 

[Neptune]

Lets set this straight, because those answer to the local governors you are claiming that the governess are trained in military strategy and tactics and make operational decisions.

Please. By your logic since the military is under the command of our parliament then all parliament members are the ones who make the operational and tactical decisions in a conflict.

No the governors choose the response but it is the military leadership that plan how to perform that response. blaming governors is an excuse. Engin Alan himself said blaming governors was an excuse, I'll take his word over yours.

You have gotta be kidding me? Then go and look at the law on Gendarmerie and its duties. Then every governor by your comparison must have expertise in education, health, foresty, law enforcement, judgement... Etc.

 

[Jackal131]

You have gotta be kidding me? Then go and look at the law on Gendarmerie and its duties. Then every governor by your comparison must have expertise in education, health, foresty, law enforcement, judgement... Etc.

My point exactly you have just reversed your argument and reinforced what I was saying all along. In your earlier comments you were implying that a military mistake can be blamed on the governor because he is in charge of his local gendarmarie. That is completely incorrect, the governor will decide on the measures to take, but any tactical errors within the operation are solely the responsibility of the gendarmarie commanders who provided the plan and the orders to the soldiers on the ground.

Stop blaming a governor for an tactical error. the governor is not military educated so he cannot be the one making the operational decisions. The ones making operational decisions are the gendarmarie leaders, in what logical world should a governor be blamed for a poor tactical decision made by a gendarmarie officer.

If you can't understand what I am saying then you simply have not got the military knowledge to even be arguing on this topic.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

IN Varto Operations began 3 hours ago, but it's commanded "double headed";

PSF and JSF operates jointly. Who is now the executing commander ?

 

[Neptune]

If you can't understand what I am saying then you simply have not got the military knowledge to even be arguing on this topic.

Me with no military knowledge?

Üç buçuk yıllık eski bahriyeliyim. Sizin işiniz doğuda batırdığınız işlerde askere polise bok atmak. Teşkilat olarak jandarma TSK'ya bağlı olan bir kurum olsa da fiilen ve yasal olarak barış ve terorle mücadele zamanında iç işleri bakanına ve illerde ise valiye bağlıdır, ve vali onayı olmadan jandarma ne PKK'ya ne de dağdaki keçiye hiç bir şekilde operasyon yapamaz yasalar böyledir açın bakın. Bu yüzden boşuna denmiyor kolluk kuvvetlerinin eli kolu bağlı diye. 30 yıl içinde ne zaman TSK'ya yetki verildiğinde yüksek başarı sağlanmadı mı? Buna binaen de bakabileceğiniz çok kaynak var.

Daha fazla söze gerek yok.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

@Neptune Varto'da PÖH ve JÖH operasyona 20.00 de operasyona basladi. Kafam karisti. En yüksek komutan MUS Jandarma Alay Komutani olduguna göre operasyon komutasi onda mi ? Yoksa cift baslilik mi söz konuu ?

 

[Neptune]

@Neptune Varto'da PÖH ve JÖH operasyona 20.00 de operasyona basladi. Kafam karisti. En yüksek komutan MUS Jandarma Alay Komutani olduguna göre operasyon komutasi onda mi ? Yoksa cift baslilik mi söz konuu ?

İldeki jandarma birliklerinin komutanı o iken, POH birlikleri de il emniyet müdürüne bağlıdır. Ama yanlış hatırlamıyorsam güneydoğuda bir iki özel harekat şubesi olması lazım doğrudan EGM merkez teşkilatına bağlı. Operasyondan operasyona değişen bir durum bu. İki tarafın kendi emirleri doğrultusunda gittiği olduğu gibi durumuna gore yeri gelip JOH tim komutanın ya da POH amirinin komuta ettiği de olmuştur.