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Turkish Special Operations Forces

Can you explain how they get murdererd in details?

Yesterday i did send a Google-Map from the place- They had the order to open a village road, which was closed from terrorists one day ago. As they reached the place a burried bomb exploded and then they were attacked with RPG-7s and Docka AA-guns. That's what I got from "not official sources". I was so sad. I can't explain. Young Gendarms "Police Men"
So primitive trap.
 
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@Neptune I get crazy same happened in BINGÖL. Do they lack INTELLIGENCE ? Today is the anniversary of PKKs beginning WAR in ERUH. Ah .... kafami yiyecegim

@Bismarck :(
 
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Absolute lack of intelligence.
Today is anniversary PKKs war beginning 15. August 1984 in Eruh.But they (some) concentrated themselves on AKPs founding day 14.August 2001.

It was afaik a COBRA and the IED wired, no Chance for jamming. (I posted exact Location yesterday)

Same happened earlier in the same region and 10 were killed . Same trap, same place same tactics.

WE had no peace period in TÜRKIYE. AKP lied for VOTES only !

Çukurca'da kanlı pusu: 10 şehit | GAZETE VATAN

From Bingöl Karliova TODAY , same happened 3 years at same place same tactics,

as yesterday in Semdinli , 1 Sergeant 2 specialis RIP

30851766.jpg
 
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Okay. On the road side? Which vehicle are they use in that moment?

Rip

Also, I heard about an attack with tons of Explosive. If true, I must say your intelligence doesn't work well.

Cobra IFV most likely (95%).

Otokar Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

07.jpg



I partly agree with that.

They started using cars loaded with heavy explosives and fulled gas tanks to harm military convoys. Because they mostly target MRAPs. Unfortunately, Cobra doesn't support that of an armor because its a vehicle that's par is HMMWV Humvee, so we lose troops because of that. Also in Turkish military we classify the ambushes on convoys into three categories.

a. Straight
b. L type
c. U type

Basically from top to down the survivality rate decreases. At early stages of the conflict they were more up to the first two. But nowadays they rarely prefer ambushes with small arms fire, PKP/PKMSN "Bixi" and RPGs. When they do it, they use U shaped ambushes which in military slang we refer it as "termination". I am not a person that supports the way currently we are fighting PKK but in these types of ambushes its nearly impossible to survive unless you have CAS in a very short time of ETA. We have seen that Afghanistan, unfortunately even SOF units didn't survive such attacks.
As for, a typical CAS in S.E Turkey is the dispatchment of attack helicopters to the region, T-129A, Cobra or Super Cobra to be more precise. But it doesn't take less than 1,5-2 hours. In these types of attacks it doesn't last more than half an hour to end it.

If the fight was on mountainous area we could easily use Gendarmerie cavalry battalions or Army cavalry brigades. But it's more spreaded into urban areas in which military doesn't have much jurisdiction or could you fly UAVs above town centers or cities? So the job falls to National Police. Only two divisions is equipped with heavy arms; Police SOF and Counter-terrorism units. And again, the government doesn't permit going to hunt. So they are subject to current penal code and other laws. Even if the guy is known to be a terrorist but he doesn't hold a firearm when detained, they can take him into custody, but 24-48 hours later he'll be released. They are allowed to engage only if a firearm is visible on their hands and poses a threat to public order and the personnel him/herself, and that happens when there's a clash. So basically how could a government agency that's main purpose is to enforce laws, counter crimes, solve homices can be used against a terrorist organization that fights with 7.62 machine guns, assault rifles and RPG-7s in a minimum level of law permit to use lethal force. Military should have full jurisdiction against PKK and ISIS.
Intelligence is well as we have seen that on early beginning of recent clashes.

I think it's about two things; change the laws give more power to security forces and a goddamn willing governmented state that lives with the goal of defeating all sorts of terror once for all.

Also concordance amendments to Law Numbered 3713, Law on Counter-Terrorism to harmonize it to EU standards which is a bit way too humanist for middle east.
 
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@Neptune That could be a short expertise Report for the President ! Thx. for effort.

One sentence is important . ! "And again, the government doesn't permit going to hunt. Law on Counter-Terrorism to harmonize it to EU standards which is a bit way too humanist for middle east."

EU harmonization and OTTAWA Agreement is full of traps, if you don't analyze and only copy paste it in national laws and regulations.

@Neptune I attached a NATO Approach with high energy Microwave. Could it be feasible against wired traps ?
 

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@Neptune That could be a short expertise Report for the President ! Thx. for effort.

One sentence is important . ! "And again, the government doesn't permit going to hunt. Law on Counter-Terrorism to harmonize it to EU standards which is a bit way too humanist for middle east."

EU harmonization and OTTAWA Agreement is full of traps, if you don't analyze and only copy paste it in national laws and regulations.

@Neptune I attached a NATO Approach with high energy Microwave. Could it be feasible against wired traps ?

Sorry, heard of it but I don't have enough insight for that.
 
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@cabatli_53 Brother. What do you think about this solution Approach against wired IEDS, maybe from Israel ?

We must try to use all available high-tech. If a road is blocked , it is obvious a trap.
No Need trying to send EODs and risk lives.


OK . I found it : Agaist IEDs

To be specific, the Army wants “High Power Microwave (HPM) grenades” to “generate an electromagnetic pulse that could be used to defeat the electronics used to activate [homemade bombs] or that could be used to attack blasting caps,” according to its latest round of research contracts with small businesses. In theory, the electrical components on improvised explosive devices, like radio transmitters, could be overwhelmed by surging electromagnetic radiation emitted by such a weapon.
If the Army can actually develop this kind of Halo weapon, it’ll take a step toward making each of its soldiers a kind of one-man bomb squad.
While the improvised bomb is the primary weapon used against U.S. troops fighting overseas, not every soldier or marine can destroy a bomb like he or she can shoot an insurgent. To defuse bombs, troops rely on explosive ordnance demolition specialists, bomb-disposing robots and vehicle-mounted jammers. The Pentagon has also desperately struggled to stay a step ahead of the bombs’ technical adaptations. But if the Army has working EMP grenades, any soldier could conceivably lob one into a room, around a corner or into a ditch to fry an awaiting booby-trap’s circuits. As the Army puts it, it could mean “defeating IEDs by the individual soldier, while minimizing the collateral damage to humans.” Easier said than done.
For instance: An EMP grenade has to be small and lightweight enough to carry. The Army is requiring companies participating in the project to design their prototypes to fit the size of “hand or robot delivered munitions, 40 mm grenades, Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs), and Stinger, Hydra, and Javelin missiles.” The next step is figuring out a working design itself.
[iframe name="google_ads_iframe_/3379/wiredcom.dart/security_4" width="728" height="90" tabindex="-1" id="google_ads_iframe_/3379/wiredcom.dart/security_4" src="javascript:"[/iframe]
The first thing to know is that an EMP grenade could be either explosive or non-explosive, with trade-offs for each. According to the 2011 textbook Explosive Pulse Power by Army engineer Larry Altgilbers, who is overseeing the project, a non-explosive device could use “pulse compression,” or blasting brief but fierce electrical pulses while compressing the electrical current and voltage, thereby making the pulses stronger. As the device continues to blast out signals, the pulses then gradually decrease in duration. For a bomb circuit without protection diodes, such a burst of energy could theoretically fry its circuits or cause it to detonate.
Unfortunately, non-explosive systems “tend to be massive, large in size and fairly expensive,” Altglibers wrote. But explosive systems are smaller, lighter and can generate a lot more electrical power. The Army solicitation refers to potentially using “energy stored in ferromagnetic, ferroelectric or superconducting materials.” Possibly, these various magnets and superconductors could trap an electrical field inside a grenade, and when exploding, the grenade could compress the field. That would cause rapid changes in the field’s structure, boosting its power and thus generating — and releasing — tremendous amounts of electromagnetic energy.
A downside to that, though, is superconducting materials have to stay cool. It’s also likely to be a one-shot weapon as explosive pulse devices “generally destroy themselves and, quite usually, the load they are driving,” according to Altgilbers. But if it’s a grenade, then that might be no loss.
Less certain is how such a device would be used neuter a bomb detonated with minimal electrical parts, like the Taliban bombs that detonate when someone compresses a wooden pressure plate; whether it would inadvertently fry U.S. troops’ own electronic circuits; or how difficult (or expensive) it’ll be to develop an EMP grenade. One Israeli company has developed a much more conventional IED-jamming “grenade,” but it uses tiny antennas to scram bomb signals instead of exploding out EMP waves. Perhaps if all else fails, the Army could consider it. If not, it might play another round of Halo in order to brainstorm.


Army Wants to Stop Bombs Using Halo-Style Electric Pulses | WIRED
 
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Another System for Detection :

Countering IEDs

By Glenn Zorpette
iedsb101.jpg

Photo: Picometrix


Among the more exotic technologies being pursued to detect improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, from a distance are terahertz-frequency waves.
Why terahertz radiation? Three reasons. It penetrates most nonmetals, such as dirt, plastic, and wood, as well as other materials that contain or conceal IEDs. It does not ionize atoms or molecules in the body, so it does not cause cancer. And it also triggers unique and detectable responses in certain molecules. ”The molecules in explosives, mostly nitrogen based, have rotational and vibrational characteristics that show up in the terahertz region,” says Michael Shlesinger, a division director with the Office of Naval Research (ONR), which together with the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory is spending US $30 million a year on counter-IED R&D.
Terahertz waves are odd, not quite radio and not quite light, and they are a vast and largely unused swath of the electromagnetic spectrum [see ”T-Rays vs. Terrorists,” IEEE Spectrum, July 2007]. As you ascend in frequency, first you have millimeter waves (30 gigahertz to about 400 GHz) and then the terahertz region, from roughly 400 GHz to 10 THz, and then the far infrared.
To detect an explosive sample using terahertz radiation, researchers fire pulses from terahertz-wave lasers at an explosive sample, which absorbs specific bands of frequencies. The reflected radiation is omnidirectional, so the signal is weak, Shlesinger notes. To detect it, researchers are working with very sensitive antennas.
On the streets of a war zone, soldiers don’t know where the explosives are, of course. So a practical system would have to scan a wide area, and do it fast, because it would be in a moving vehicle. ”The unsolved problem is the scan rate, when the explosives are well-hidden,” Shlesinger says.
If researchers can solve the scan-rate problem and build a terahertz-wave-based detection system, ”there will be circumstances where it is useful, but it won’t be a general answer,” says Captain Mark Stoffel, a program manager in the ONR’s Expeditionary Maneuver, Warfare, and Combating Terrorism Department.
Another intriguing feature of terahertz waves is their ability to form images of objects hidden by nonmetals. This capability is attractive to military researchers because it suggests—in theory, anyway—the possibility of a system that can detect explosives hidden in a suicide bomber’s clothing from enough of a distance for it to be useful. A few commercial imaging systems are already available, but they are slow and must be very close to their target. A practical system is years, maybe decades away
 
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@cabatli_53 Brother. What do you think about this solution Approach against wired IEDS, maybe from Israel ?

We must try to use all available high-tech. If a road is blocked , it is obvious a trap.
No Need trying to send EODs and risk lives.


OK . I found it : Agaist IEDs

To be specific, the Army wants “High Power Microwave (HPM) grenades” to “generate an electromagnetic pulse that could be used to defeat the electronics used to activate [homemade bombs] or that could be used to attack blasting caps,” according to its latest round of research contracts with small businesses. In theory, the electrical components on improvised explosive devices, like radio transmitters, could be overwhelmed by surging electromagnetic radiation emitted by such a weapon.
If the Army can actually develop this kind of Halo weapon, it’ll take a step toward making each of its soldiers a kind of one-man bomb squad.
While the improvised bomb is the primary weapon used against U.S. troops fighting overseas, not every soldier or marine can destroy a bomb like he or she can shoot an insurgent. To defuse bombs, troops rely on explosive ordnance demolition specialists, bomb-disposing robots and vehicle-mounted jammers. The Pentagon has also desperately struggled to stay a step ahead of the bombs’ technical adaptations. But if the Army has working EMP grenades, any soldier could conceivably lob one into a room, around a corner or into a ditch to fry an awaiting booby-trap’s circuits. As the Army puts it, it could mean “defeating IEDs by the individual soldier, while minimizing the collateral damage to humans.” Easier said than done.
For instance: An EMP grenade has to be small and lightweight enough to carry. The Army is requiring companies participating in the project to design their prototypes to fit the size of “hand or robot delivered munitions, 40 mm grenades, Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs), and Stinger, Hydra, and Javelin missiles.” The next step is figuring out a working design itself.
[iframe name="google_ads_iframe_/3379/wiredcom.dart/security_4" width="728" height="90" tabindex="-1" id="google_ads_iframe_/3379/wiredcom.dart/security_4" src="javascript:"[/iframe]
The first thing to know is that an EMP grenade could be either explosive or non-explosive, with trade-offs for each. According to the 2011 textbook Explosive Pulse Power by Army engineer Larry Altgilbers, who is overseeing the project, a non-explosive device could use “pulse compression,” or blasting brief but fierce electrical pulses while compressing the electrical current and voltage, thereby making the pulses stronger. As the device continues to blast out signals, the pulses then gradually decrease in duration. For a bomb circuit without protection diodes, such a burst of energy could theoretically fry its circuits or cause it to detonate.
Unfortunately, non-explosive systems “tend to be massive, large in size and fairly expensive,” Altglibers wrote. But explosive systems are smaller, lighter and can generate a lot more electrical power. The Army solicitation refers to potentially using “energy stored in ferromagnetic, ferroelectric or superconducting materials.” Possibly, these various magnets and superconductors could trap an electrical field inside a grenade, and when exploding, the grenade could compress the field. That would cause rapid changes in the field’s structure, boosting its power and thus generating — and releasing — tremendous amounts of electromagnetic energy.
A downside to that, though, is superconducting materials have to stay cool. It’s also likely to be a one-shot weapon as explosive pulse devices “generally destroy themselves and, quite usually, the load they are driving,” according to Altgilbers. But if it’s a grenade, then that might be no loss.
Less certain is how such a device would be used neuter a bomb detonated with minimal electrical parts, like the Taliban bombs that detonate when someone compresses a wooden pressure plate; whether it would inadvertently fry U.S. troops’ own electronic circuits; or how difficult (or expensive) it’ll be to develop an EMP grenade. One Israeli company has developed a much more conventional IED-jamming “grenade,” but it uses tiny antennas to scram bomb signals instead of exploding out EMP waves. Perhaps if all else fails, the Army could consider it. If not, it might play another round of Halo in order to brainstorm.


Army Wants to Stop Bombs Using Halo-Style Electric Pulses | WIRED

Thats I wanted to go out. Thx.
 
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Losses like these within our military can be attributed to poor training, poor tactics, poor equipment and poor support.

But the main factor is the actual culture within our armed forces. The Turkish armed forces has a disease of poor culture among its professionals and the presence of politics and bureaucracy overpowers military aptitude.

Improvisation and adaptive thinking is non existent within our military and any professionals who attempts to be adaptive and improvise to a situation is penalised. This is not a phrase it is a fact, you will be punished if you don't follow the training manual 100%.

Our military culture is weak, attributes such as general barracks discipline are viewed as more important than actual operational skills and soldiers who should be given allowances regarding uniform and barracks discipline are still expected to behave like conscripts around politicians and other high ranks. It sickens we to see OKK members during visits by politicians where the operators are forced to stand around at attention like conscripts in the presence of an Albay. The last things operators of that degree should be doing is ironing their pants and wearing polished conscript boots to please a politician.

The key downfall is the leadership and this culture they maintain. Stubborn leaders stuck in their own ways with old training and methods will refuse to let soldiers adopt new techniques and equipment. This is why it has taken nearly two decades for our special operation teams to start using equipment like holographic sights and high quality vests. Because they had leaders saying things like "we used iron sights back in my day and we did fine you don't need fancy electric sights and we used basic pouches you don't need molle vests use the same ones we used back in my day".

And that quote above is something I regularly heard coming from high ranking officers during my time in the military.

So these losses will continue as long as old officers are allowed to continue promoting a culture of stubborn refusal to adopt new techniques and equipment based on their own evaluations of what is necessary while they have been out of the field for decades. Young officers cannot recommend tactical and operational changes based off of actual real time experience because they will be punished for contradicting the stubborn claims of an old man who hasn't seen battle in 30 years or may not have seen battle at all.
 
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It's a bit hard what you wrote. I understand your disappointment and sadness, but the initiative is not in the hand of Military Experts. Unexperienced and anxious Governors decide what to do. IED ambushes are a catastrophy everywhere. Some People distribute and publish PKK Propaganda here. The Security Forces have strict order not to risk civilian lives and cause "collateral damage"; in VARTO security forces are storming from house to house; comparable to hostage rescue operations. GOD bless them.
Yesterday night terrorists blasted a electricity trafo there; it was repaired today. Terrorists made barricads and digged with heavy Equipment of the municipality. Varto will clean again Monday morning.
Same happens in Semdinli almost 80 heavy armed terrorists hided in houses using civilians as shields.

It is very very hard, security Forces could blow all the houses but we would cause "death" of our citizens.

Please see USA statistics :

US- IED Fatalities and Woundings

The IED has killed more than 3,000 U.S. troops and wounded 33,000

How the IED changed the U.S. military
 
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It's a bit hard what you wrote. I understand your disappointment and sadness, but the initiative is not in the hand of Military Experts. Unexperienced and anxious Governors decide what to do. IED ambushes are a catastrophy everywhere. Some People distribute and publish PKK Propaganda here. The Security Forces have strict order not to risk civilian lives and cause "collateral damage"; in VARTO security forces are storming from house to house; comparable to hostage rescue operations. GOD bless them.
Yesterday night terrorists blasted a electricity trafo there; it was repaired today. Terrorists made barricads and digged with heavy Equipment of the municipality. Varto will clean again Monday morning.
Same happens in Semdinli almost 80 heavy armed terrorists hided in houses using civilians as shields.

It is very very hard, security Forces could blow all the houses but we would cause "death" of our citizens.

Please see USA statistics :

US- IED Fatalities and Woundings

The IED has killed more than 3,000 U.S. troops and wounded 33,000[/url][/B]

Of course you have valid and correct points in your post. But you are ignoring small pieces of information that bring the decisions of the military leaders into question. The governer did not order the soldiers to patrol the same route as a previous IED attack, that was an order given by military leadership. That is the key element you are missing, when there are military losses attributed to poor planning it cannot be blamed on politicians who are only present to make actions legal. The military leaders are the ones who decide and plan on how to act out the requests of politicians.

It is the military leaders job to perform adequately regardless of the political or legal status.

If a governer is hesitant them the military leadership should be adapting and improvising operational procedure to ensure all units maintain a healthy status as well as maximum operational readiness.

You need to understand that blaming a political factor is simply an excuse for incredibly faulty leadership. The military officers who ordered a patrol to use the same route, vehicles, and timing at a location that proved advantageous to terrorists conducting ambushes are either incredibly stubborn and refuse to adapt to the tactics of their enemy or they are simply underqualified and should not be in the extremely important position they occupy.

It may seem that I am being harsh but I have experienced these issues and I have also experienced the positives when a leader who changes this poisoned culture takes command.

You can blame politics all you want, but politicians do not make operational and tactical decisions which get soldiers killed. they only make legal documents and sign them.

Let me put the quality of our military leadership into a question for you.

Would you like a leader who encounters a problem and tells you it doesn't exist or that it is the governors fault and orders you to continue the same.

Or would you rather him to be critical, admit the mistake or weakness, fix it and adapt new tactics that allow you to not only be safer but also kill more scumbag terrorists.

Which sounds better to you ? Because currently our leaders are all of the first type.

Look at our counter terror history, any time a leader came in who completely changed our tactics and promoted a culture of adaptive tactics and aggressive counters we absolutely decimated the terrorists.

There is no point in comparing US and it's campaigns to our situation. completely different conflicts with completely different factors.
 
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